The 1700-1939 Book Club! discussion

This is for the discussion of The Buccaneers by Edith Wharton (Book 3).

I have not reached book 3* yet but can anyone tell someone other than Edith Wharton wrote this book and book 4? Marion Mainwaring finished the book after studying Wharton's outline.

*Book 3 is by Wharton, 4&5 are by Mainwaring.

I understand everything from Chapter XXX onward was written by Mainwaring. I looked that information up after I had finished the book. Yes, I think it is noticeable. There is a definite change in tone. I understand Mainwaring followed Wharton's outline, but I do not think Wharton would have followed her own outline had she lived long enough to finish this book.

I think the tone is much more ominous and depressing in book 3. I'm tempted to put the book down completely at this point. There is not much to keep my interest.

Things do get better. How far in are you?

The beginning of Book III is a turning point in the novel. Two years have passed since the preceding section, and the girls are married now. Nan is the Duchess of Tintagel now. In the opening scene, we find her addressing invitations, carefully consulting a list that has been provided to her for the proper forms of address to use for various nobles and their wives. When I read the first pages of this chapter, I was still uncertain about who this "Duchess" was, and whether Tintagel had actually married Nan. Did anyone else share my uncertainty?

Joanne wrote: "I think the tone is much more ominous and depressing in book 3. I'm tempted to put the book down completely at this point. There is not much to keep my interest."

That is a common trait in Edith Wharton's writing. She tends to address the tragedies that befall people because of societies limitations and restrictions and expectations, and the emphasis placed upon the class system, as well as wealth, and the many problems that come when both men and women feel obligated to marry for reasons other then love, and then become trapped within these marriages with no easy way out.

I thought it was rather unfortunate that Nan did end up being lured into marriage with the Duke of Tintagel as I really never thought the Duke would be a good match for her intellectually. Nan is incomprehensible to the Duke.

I think it is interesting to see the way in which all these Americans who had seemingly so successfully made their "invasion" upon Briton have all come to realize their folly in the bad choices they have made for themselves in their marriages.

Also I find the unexpected romance brewing between Miss Testvalley and Sir Helmsley to be quite amusing. They are sort of the contrast to the other characters in the book. They are two individuals who have grown a mutual affection for each other based upon common interests, but are also both old and experienced enough not to take any rash steps, but take the time to get to know each other and nurture their feelings for each other.

Nan was swept away by her naive romantic ideals and rushed into a marriage with the Duke was drawn to her because of her child-like view of the world, and ignored the warnings of Miss. Testvalley.

Virginia and Conchita were driven by their desire for status and wealth, and to gain acceptance within the society which had formerly snubbed them.

"Silver wrote: Joanne wrote: 'I think the tone is much more ominous and depressing in book 3'.

That is a common trait in Edith Wharton's writing. She tends to address the tragedies that befall people because of societies limitations and restrictions and expectations, and the emphasis placed upon the class system, as well as wealth, and the many problems that come when both men and women feel obligated to marry for reasons other then love, and then become trapped within these marriages with no easy way out. .."

I have only read a couple of other Edith Wharton books--Age of Innocence and Summer. Certainly, those two fit the pattern you describe. It did seem, in Summer, that Edith Wharton was influenced by events in her own life (unhappy marriage, getting steadily worse due to husband's mental illness, love affair with someone else, eventual divorce). Reading the Buccaneers, it seems that the author is working with ideas about how people who do not share common values going into a relationship can't come to a common understanding once they are actually married. The tone change in Book III of the Buccaneers seemed much more abrupt than in Wharton's other works, and I attribute some of that to the change in authors.

Casceil wrote: "The tone change in Book III of the Buccaneers seemed much more abrupt than in Wharton's other works, and I attribute some of that to the change in authors. ..."

I attributed the abrupt change of tone to how much period of time passed between the books, though that could be related to a new author if she was working off Wharton's notes. It is possible if Wharton could have continued writing she might have added more detail between the two books to make the tone change not as abrupt.

Though I also felt that there was foreshadowing in the previous books that doe help lead up to the events of book three. We already know that Conchita's marriage is not working out very well. And there is the fact that Nan and the Duke first meet within a ruins which could be seen as an ominous way to begin a relationship.

Now that you mention it, Silver, the meeting in the ruins probably was foreshadowing. I believe Edith Wharton did write, at least in draft, a lot of Book III. Book III runs from Chapter 20 through Chapter 32. According to the Afterword in my copy, everything through Chapter 24 is pretty much as Wharton wrote it, and the part where Mainwaring started working from just an outline began at Chapter XXX. The Afterword also comments that, as to the part Wharton wrote, she deviated in major ways from her Synopsis and outline. In the original synopsis, Guy Thwarte was "a poor officer in the Guards," posted to South Africa. Later in the writing process, he became a civil engineer with experience in South America.

I feel almost certain Wharton would have made more significant changes if she had been alive long enough to finish the book herself. I would love to know how it might have changed.

Silver wrote: "Joanne wrote: "I think the tone is much more ominous and depressing in book 3. I'm tempted to put the book down completely at this point. There is not much to keep my interest."

That is a common..."

I definitely recall this theme from Ethan Frome. Edith Wharton's work displays the characters' concern for appearances, oppression and surrender to expectations.

I was sad to see the turn of events making Nan so miserable in Book 3.

Casceil wrote: "I understand everything from Chapter XXX onward was written by Mainwaring. I looked that information up after I had finished the book. Yes, I think it is noticeable. There is a definite change i..."

Yes your right! I thought there were only four books in the novel and not five so I assumed book three was not by Wharton. Thanks!

Casceil wrote: "The beginning of Book III is a turning point in the novel. Two years have passed since the preceding section, and the girls are married now. Nan is the Duchess of Tintagel now. In the opening sc..."

I first thought it was his mother.

I'm curious to know more of how Testvalley feels about Nan and Guy becoming closer. I also thought it seemed odd that Lizzy believes there's more between Nan and Guy than just friends. I know we see a connection and how they share similarities but Lizzy's world must look for these small signs because she hasn't really been around them. Hopefully she doesn't cause any trouble.

Lilly is very perceptive. We saw that in Book II, when she realized before Lord Seadown did that he should be engaged to Virginia.

Very true :) It will be interesting to see what else she notices.