Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

I was wondering where agents and publishers stand now on receiving self published manuscripts? There was a time when it was a big no no. Does anyone know if this has changed? Does it all depend on how many copies you've managed to sell? Does it make a difference if you've put the books out yourself, say through Amazon KDP, meaning you control all the rights? Thanks.

UH? If you've already published your book, why do you want to hire other people to take part of your royalties, to tell you what you can or can't do with your book that you've worked so hard on, to maybe decide to change your book title and character names, etc.?

Nadia, It is my understanding that if you are selling a large number of copies agents may actually come looking for you. If not, they may still take on your work based on its merit if they think they can sell it to a publisher.

Having said that, I'd echo Peggy's comments and say that an agent really does not offer any significant value to someone who is self-published, especially if your books have not taken off. And even then, unless you have no time for marketing on your own, they offer little value.

Here's an interesting article by a successful independent author who did end up hiring an agent to give you more of an insight into things:

http://www.indierecon.org/2013/02/par...

Hope that helps and all the best to you with your writing.

Nadia, it depends.

It's pretty much still frowned upon to send a self-published manuscript to an agent or a publisher. If you've built an audience and fanbase with your work though, it's always worth mentioning your past success with self-publishing when pitching a new book. Publishers and agents are increasingly keen that writers have some sort of 'platform' to take the strain of shrinking marketing budgets.

If you don't control all the rights, there's no point submitting to anybody - you can't sell what you no longer own...

Real publishing remains my goal, and to that end I'm extremely careful to self-publish only stuff that has been reviewed by professionals (eg, my collection of reprinted short stories, and my MPhil thesis), to avoid besmirching my reputation with a stinker.

Having said that, I have a few forthcoming short stories in professional anthologies, and my self-publishing track record has never been held against me in the slightest.

My best advice would be to look at agents' entries in the various directories, and see if they say anything about self-published material, or give them a quick phone call if you're unsure. A lot won't touch it, but the world is changing a bit, and many might take a look.

I think it's a great question to ask, and I already learned a little something from the discussion in its infancy. I am a recently self-published author and thought maybe the marketing reach I have through social media and my two blogs would be greatly extended if I had an agent. Sounds like it would not. But maybe it depends on the agency. Thanks.

No, agents won't market your work beyond pitching it to publishers.

But they're very good at doing that.

Peggy wrote: "UH? If you've already published your book, why do you want to hire other people to take part of your royalties, to tell you what you can or can't do with your book that you've worked so hard on, to..."

Thanks for all your comments. To answer the question, I tried going the mainstream route and was rejected several times. I tried a partnership publishing deal but they didn't uphold their side of the contract and took my money. I tried publishing my books myself as at least I could do it for free and had nothing to lose. I followed all the marketing tips: social media, blogging, interviewing Authors, free giveaways, you name it, nothing. From this I am forced to conclude that either I'm useless at marketing or useless at writing or both, but I can't bring myself to give up. I'm in the process of planning a Trilogy at the moment. I've never believed in an idea so strongly, and so I'm giving thought to its future. I'd love to know what all these self published Authors are doing that I'm not, because every time I read an article, they're doing everything I'm doing. Hence the thought, should I try yet again for a mainstream deal?

Nadia,

I'm glad I read about your experience so I can learn more about how other authors have dealt with different obstacles. I started out self publishing outright and never did a dance with other traditional publishers. Sorry that you had frustrations with that. However, I'd also like to tell you that I admire that you kept going and self published anyway. I thought the same you did where I could do everything the traditional publishing would do, i.e. marketing, blogging, online advertising. I've also extensively read up on marketing tips.

I'm in the same boat as you where my marketing hasn't reaped the results I initially thought it would. Like you, I also couldn't find it in myself to give up. I'm writing a book series and that was another thing I found we had in common; we're not selling just one book, we're trying to market a whole series. Anyway, I just would like to say not to give up or get discouraged. It IS discouraging when effort is put in and little is gained but it's just the cycle of being an author.

My perspective on mainstream publishing is to be open minded. I'm not necessarily looking for a deal, but if one comes up I'll weigh my options and might go for it. All I know is that if I do accept a deal, I'm going to make sure I retain my rights and the deal is best for me and my book.

Happy writing, keep going! :)

~L.

L. wrote: "Nadia,

I'm glad I read about your experience so I can learn more about how other authors have dealt with different obstacles. I started out self publishing outright and never did a dance with oth..."

Thank you. It would be nice to get some reward after all these years. When you see others succeeding where you failed, you can't help wondering where you went wrong. Good luck to you too.

When your work is first published (however it is published), you have used its First rights. If you ever sign a publishing contract with a major publisher, this document will indicate the rights they are buying. First rights, second rights, Australian first rights, first Italian rights and so on -- if you are Stephen King or J.K. Rowling these all have a genuine value.
The first publication rights however have the most value -- like virginity. If you use your first rights by self-publishing in a crappy format on Amazon or something, well, they're gone. This is what Andrew is saying, I think. And that is why his advice is sound. You should be very very careful about how, and with whom, you lose that cherry. Many publishers will not consider a new writer's work unless they can get first rights. (J.K. Rowling, sure, they'll take 33rd rights and be happy as clams.)

Some agents will consider repping previously self published books, some won't. When you get to the querying stage do your homework, check out the agents blog/twitter feed to see if they have a stance either way. A couple of high profile agents have blogged on this topic and stated they would want to see paid sales in excess of 10,000 units to be interested at a price point of $3.99 or greater. So free downloads and 99 cent sales don't count in the 10,000 figure.
You might be better off querying a new project if your sales are under 10,000 units.

An agent doesn't market your book, they will sell the manuscript to a publisher. Any marketing from that point is at the publisher's discretion. Many mid-list authors are finding they get very little marketing support these days. There is a growing trend that whether you self-publish or go the traditional route you will be doing the lion's share of marketing and advertising. Remember JK Rowling's murder/mystery (pre-leaking of her name) only sold 500 copies on its own as a debut novel with a publisher.

@Nadia I don't know anything about agents or publishers. I just stopped here to tell you that I've read two of your books and I can say that the problem is definitely not your talent. I've read professionally published books that were not as entertaining as yours. Sadly, talent is not always the only factor. I believe there is a lot of luck involved too. Just don't give up. Enjoy what you are doing and hopefully, one day, someone will notice you. Good luck.

Nadia wrote: "Peggy wrote: "UH? If you've already published your book, why do you want to hire other people to take part of your royalties, to tell you what you can or can't do with your book that you've worked ..."

All of the authors that I know, who have publishers, still have to market their books themselves. Don't get discouraged. It takes awhile for the social media route to pay off. I'm just now starting to see some results, after four years.

I spent quite a long time trying to interest agents and publishers in my own work, so after 35 knock backs I decided to self publish. Had it professionally edited (twice), created a website, professional book cover produced and print ready files created. Even set up a trade name for the ‘publishing’ company and bought ten ISBN – one for the book, another for the e-book and the remainder for the future.
The hardest part was marketing a story which is a trans-Atlantic story, based in Liverpool, and and I live in Sydney, Australia. You’d think I’d have been better of writing about Australia . . .but I’m not that bright.
After two years the e-book was picked up by a UK publisher and they wanted to change the cover & the title – so I let them after a number of e-mail chats. It was reissued as a hardback in July of this year with its new title and new cover – I've grown to like the new cover better than the old cover.
After I was contacted about being published by a ‘proper’ publisher I tried to find an agent, and thought that it wouldn't be a problem, after all I just wanted representation for a contract that had already been sold. Nine agents in Oz didn't want to know, and a number in London also didn't want to know. I only contacted agents who had an interest in historical fiction or advertised that they wanted ‘new blood’ etc.
I still don’t know why I was rejected by the agents. The book is selling and I think it will be reissued next year as a paperback (cheaper) – I did ask why not go to paperback at the start and was told that they preferred the hardback to paperback route – who am I to argue, it’s their money so I shut-up. :-o)
In conclusion, the dream can come true, so keep plugging away at marketing / selling because you never know on whose desk a copy of your work might fall.

I agee with G.G. And Peggy. Talent is important and so are persistence and luck. There are lots of disappointments and hard work in writing and publishing.. It's okay to take a break from it all now and then.
The support and wisdom of other writers has helped me over so many humps.
Remember, you just have to get up one more time than the number of times you get knocked down.

G.G. wrote: "@Nadia I don't know anything about agents or publishers. I just stopped here to tell you that I've read two of your books and I can say that the problem is definitely not your talent. I've read pro..."

G.G. wrote: "@Nadia I don't know anything about agents or publishers. I just stopped here to tell you that I've read two of your books and I can say that the problem is definitely not your talent. I've read pro..."
Wow, I'm flattered. Can I ask which books you read?

Sacrifice and The Appointed

I have a long list of Read & Review, but I am slowly getting through them. I will definitely read The Betrayer when I get a chance.

Hi Nadia, like others, I've heard stories of self-published authors who agents sought out because of the buzz or sales around their book.
It's true that authors with traditional publishers still have to market. I think one difference is that traditional publishers and agents have established networks and contacts to expand your rights into other markets.
My gut says to query agents with a self-published book the agent will be looking for something extraordinary in your track record to take it on.

Peggy wrote: "UH? If you've already published your book, why do you want to hire other people to take part of your royalties, to tell you what you can or can't do with your book that you've worked so hard on, to..."

I was recently on the phone with a representative of Xlibris publishing house. He sought me out and offered to promote and market my book on the NY Times weekly column, and several other magazines like Kirkus. Of course all of this came with a price, at around $1600 or so, and I was about to go for it until he told me that the book would have to be re-published under their own imprint. Of course, I said no!

Anton wrote: "Peggy wrote: "UH? If you've already published your book, why do you want to hire other people to take part of your royalties, to tell you what you can or can't do with your book that you've worked ..."

That's great that someone wanted to pick you up, but that's a lot of money to find. I have no money, so it's a case of if it isn't free, I can't do it. I still can't make up my mind what to do with my next book. It's not a decision I have to make right now as I'm only at the planning stage, but it's something I'm thinking about. I've had such bad luck marketing my books but I don't want to give up control either.

The man was really nice and consoling too. He said that I shouldn't be afraid to take a risk, and I shouldn't be worried about depending on a publishing house to report my royalties to me because I'm doing the same thing with Amazon. Still, they were sort of like a middle man, and that's less control, and so I said no. I still wonder if I made the right decision. I'm very undecided.

Generally speaking, most traditional literary agents are working on commission. Which means they make nothing unless they can sell your work to a publisher. Any "agent" that wants you to pay them up front for representing you, is more often than not a scam of some kind.

Xlibris is a vanity press and part of Author Solutions. Both are currently facing a class action law suit for deceptive practices. Stay a long way away from them - unless you want to kiss your money goodbye for no return.

Anton,
Xlibris is a self-publishing company. There is no reason to pay them a small fortune to do something you've already done. And they would charge you a fee for any marketing, editing, promotion, etc.

Scary! glad I don't have that kind of money to risk :P

I have a friend who has several books by several publishers, he wasn't sure what to do with his most recent and I suggested he self-publish it, especially since he already had his name out there. He told me he was too scared to self-publish and instead his "agent" talked him into going through Publish America. I know I should inform him of what has actually happened, but since he's already signed the contract, I don't know that I have the heart.

So you really have to watch out. There is no requirement to calling oneself a literary agent, and I've already heard tales of people claiming to be one, only to push their client's work through self-publishing avenues and taking a large part of the cut, and sometimes all of it in some rare cases.

I suppose all that's left then is for me to wonder where I'm going so wrong with the marketing. I've read enough marketing info on the web and followed their instructions (providing it was free) and nothing. The only thing I ever paid for was a membership on Authors Den and that turned out to be a huge waste of time. I've done the blogging and social media thing which I don't really enjoy. I've written to blogs who review my type of fiction and got zero response. I've decided not to worry about it for now and concentrate on getting my book written but I'd be interested to hear of marketing ideas that have worked for you all. Perhaps someone has tried something I haven't thought of. Free ideas only, please, I really have no money.

Nadia, from what I've read, self-publishing a book for young readers and getting that book read by your target audience is much more difficult than self-publishing genre (SF/F/H/R) fiction targeted to adults. This might have something to do with the relatively limited purchasing power of your target demographic, and I think a lot to do with the difficulty you'll face in getting your book read and recommended by librarians, the primary cheerleaders and book promoters of great books for young readers.

You may want to consider shopping your next book around to literary agents. Books for young readers yield much higher advances anyway.

Whoever you are planning to work with, unless they are WIDELY known (Simon and Schuster is okay), please! Go over to Writer Beware and scope them out! http://www.sfwa.org/other-resources/f...
SFWA (the Science-Fiction & Fantasy Writers of America) sponsors Writer Beware, which is a service that keeps track of spammy, criminous or fraudulent agents, publishers, and book doctors. Victoria Strauss runs it, and if you send her a note she will tell you if ANYBODY you are considering working with is on the bad list.
PLEASE! Do not get ripped off! There are resources to keep you from being picked clean like road kill! It is hard enough to be a young writer; do not become a victim as well!

A.W. wrote: "Xlibris is a vanity press and part of Author Solutions. Both are currently facing a class action law suit for deceptive practices. Stay a long way away from them - unless you want to kiss your mone..."

I looked them up on the better business bureau. They seemed to have a lot of complaints against them. Anyways, I told the man that will consider going to the NY times myself and he replied- "They won't accept you unless you're represented" And so, as an indie author, am I not permitted to advertise on the NY Times? I didn't know that. He also said I wouldn't even be able to have Kirkus review my book unless my book is vouched for.

Anyways, I'm going to continue querying literary agents, but only if they work with NY publishing. Just need luck.

Brenda wrote: "Whoever you are planning to work with, unless they are WIDELY known (Simon and Schuster is okay), please! Go over to Writer Beware and scope them out! http://www.sfwa.org/other-resources/f......"

Great info! Thanks for it.

Feel free to copy and paste my post around. It is a resource that all writers should know of.

Anton wrote: "A.W. wrote: "Xlibris is a vanity press and part of Author Solutions. Both are currently facing a class action law suit for deceptive practices. Stay a long way away from them - unless you want to k..."

Then you know he's either lying or has no clue what he's doing. Kirkus actually states on their site that they're there for indie and self-pubbed authors. The only requirement they have for doing a review of a book is that you pay for it, which is a whole other discussion.

Gregor wrote: "Nadia, from what I've read, self-publishing a book for young readers and getting that book read by your target audience is much more difficult than self-publishing genre (SF/F/H/R) fiction targeted..."

I'm getting so much conflicting advice. Some people seem to think agents aren't the way to go because many are little better than con artists. I've got other people saying that you also have to market your book yourself even with a mainstream deal, so I'd be no better off. In fact, I'd be worse off as I'd lose control over my rights. I was prepared to consider that if it meant I'd get help with promotion. I confess, I'm more confused than when I started this topic. I've no idea which is the best route to take. I tried sending to agents with my previous books and was rejected several times. I self published and had no better luck.

Shaun wrote: "Anton wrote: "A.W. wrote: "Xlibris is a vanity press and part of Author Solutions. Both are currently facing a class action law suit for deceptive practices. Stay a long way away from them - unless..."

I know, I even wound up catching him in a lie. He first gave me a whole lecture on the why I needed his company. IN order to be accepted by the NY Times and Yes, he even claimed Kirkus would deny me without representation. And so, I then told him that I'd be willing to purchase his premium marketing package, WITHOUT allowing him the rights to publish the book. He said that it would be possible, but I'd lose the discount and would have to pay the over $5000. And my payment plan would consist of 3 monthly installments. Not worth it.

Personally, I believe that traditional NY publishing doesn't even bother with first time, or independent authors anymore. The reason is because they aren't needed. They are basically resorting to the same outlets independent authors are. The main draw for querying NY publishing is the fact that you keep your wallet closed. Otherwise, you can make it without a publisher. If you're rich enough.

Nadia wrote: "Gregor wrote: "Nadia, from what I've read, self-publishing a book for young readers and getting that book read by your target audience is much more difficult than self-publishing genre (SF/F/H/R) f..."

What do you mean you had no better luck self-publishing? What are your expectations like?

I saw one of your reviews mentions there are several incorrect word choices. Have you had your books professionally edited and proofread?

Shaun wrote: "Nadia wrote: "Gregor wrote: "Nadia, from what I've read, self-publishing a book for young readers and getting that book read by your target audience is much more difficult than self-publishing genr..."

That book was written a long time ago and professionally edited. It follows on from what Anton was saying about so-called professionals in the publishing industry being happy to take your money. I was grateful to the reviewer for pointing out the mistakes and I am in the process of sorting it. As to what I mean when I say I've had rotten luck, I have four books out and I can count on one hand the number of copies I've sold. That's number of copies period, not number of copies per book. I think we can all agree that's not good.

In the current climate, that's not exactly bad either though. It's fair to say the market is currently glutted with books, and it's very hard to get noticed.

One thing I point people to is Robert Lee Brewer's blog post of How to build an author platform in 30 days. It worked well enough for me before I even had a book to sell.

http://robertleebrewer.blogspot.com/2...

Or, as Joe Konrath says, keep experimenting. Play with whatever you can, prices, covers, venues. If your books are only available on Kindle, try putting them up on Smashwords as well. If you're already on both, try going exclusive on Kindle and use their promotion tools.

As has been said, unless a publisher thinks you're going to be literary gold, they're generally not going to do much for you in the way of marketing. So get used to taking some of your writing time and putting it to marketing use.

To your earlier comments Nadia, never give up! I know it seems like authors around you have found some sort of promotional haven at times but I can say that I too haven't gotten the hang of hitting it big when it comes to promoting and marketing. Not to sound cliche or corny but honestly not giving up, believing in yourself and your working and trying to get stuff out there is the best way. You wont always get positive results but thats a part of the game we authors must face in the world of writing.

I enjoyed this thread immensely. I'm of course, sorry for the people struggling, and I can relate to working hard at marketing and achieving practically no results. (I thank you all for your candor, because sometimes it seems like everybody you hear about is doing so great.) My little contribution to this thread is that as a self-published author at least you don't have the agent's, editor's and publisher's hoops to jump through. You also don't have only five minutes shelf life somewhere buried in Barnes & Noble, which is experiencing severe financial problems. Self-published you're out there forever. And, as was said, it takes time. Eventually people will notice you. And in the meantime, I treat failure as a deepening agent. I look at it as a way to increase my artistic depth. And it works. There's a quote I like in Marcus Aurelius' "Meditations." It's a touch wordy at first (those Roman emperors rarely had quality editors) but hang with it and you'll see why I like it. "That which rules within, when it is according to nature, is so affected with respect to the events which happen, that it always easily adapts itself to that which is possible and is presented to it. For it requires no definite material, but it moves towards its purpose, under certain conditions however; and it makes a material for itself out of that which opposes it, as fire lays hold of what falls into it, by which a small light would have been extinguished; but when the fire is strong, it soon appropriates to itself the matter which is heaped upon it, and consumes it, and rises higher by this very material." Meditation #4

I think the big trick, the only trick in making it in the writing business (agent or secret agent or no agent at all) is not a trick it all. It is a simple truth that you need to keep on writing and telling the stories you want to tell. That "want" is very important as I do not think that just seeing what's popular at the moment and replicating it will bring success (there are some notable exceptions but it is a road to perdition ;)).

Your positive comments are much appreciated, and I think part of my problem may well have been trying, all-be-it unconsciously, to replicate what's already out there. I'm currently in the process of planning a trilogy (well, two trilogies actually) that I really believe in. I write Young Adult fantasy, but I believe I may have finally found the genre I'm happy with. I may even target a middle grade audience this time as I'm rather disolusioned with the YA genre right now. Thank you all for your words of encouragement. Guess I'll just keep plugging away and hope my change of writing direction makes other people as happy as it's making me.