Tudor Book Blog Book Club discussion

I liked the turn the conversation was taking in the Week I: Overview post, and thought I would continue it here. I feel like conversations about particular characters or events might do better in their own threads (to keep it less confusing and congested).

Paula mentioned that, "...I'll also have to reconcile my impressions of Thomas Cromwell via Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies with this characterization. I think this book will offer some interesting perspective."

I really liked the character of Cromwell, especially when he talked about Henry VIII. I found it funny and really humanizing to hear him talk about what the King would do if such-and-such happened (aka over react/explode/cause violence), thus it was better for Cromwell to handle the more delicate matters.

I feel this is a pretty good representation of Cromwell and Henry VIII. Henry himself lamented Cromwell's death after the fact. I think he didn't know how good he had it until it was gone ;)

I was wondering whether we should have a separate thread or not. We did compare Hilary Mantel's portrayal of Thomas Cromwell in "Wolf Hall" and "Bring up the Bodies" with C J Sansom's in "Dissolution", but that is not going to mean much to anyone who has not read the other books.

The characters are not that dissimilar in my opinion, in that Cromwell is dealing with matters behind the scenes to get Henry VIII what he wants, but Mantel makes him more complex and therefore more interesting and compelling as a character. I suppose that Henry could disingenuously pretend that he did not know about the methods Cromwell used, so long as he got the required results. Both authors make Cromwell quite cynical and pragmatic, but Sansom makes him a genuine religious reformer while Mantel makes him cynical about that as well.

I gather Henry VIII lamented the loss of Wolsey, More and Cromwell, but then he should not have been so hasty as to chop off the heads of his most able counsellors and surround himself with sycophants.

Like you I can see both cynicism and a genuine attraction to reform as believable aspects of Cromwell's character. He pushed for an English language version of the Bible, which seems to have been his initiative and not at Henry's instigation. He was keen for some of the money raised from the dissolutions to be used for schools, poor relief and other social reforms which would benefit ordinary people. On the other hand his initial moves against the church were solely to get Henry more power and money and an annulment, rather than any recognisable religious conviction. It may have been more a case of thinking that once the reforms were going ahead he would try to get some positive results out of them. The abbeys and monasteries may not have been as generous towards the poor as they could have been, but they were the only safety net available; Cromwell came from a fairly humble background and would have realised that removing that provision would cause hardship and was not cynical enough to ignore it. (He also opposed enclosure acts, which angered a lot of wealthy landowners and made him enemies.)

As Sansom shows in "Dissolution" the wealthy, well connected, Benedictine establishments were more in need of reform than the smaller houses, but those small houses did not (usually) have friends at court or any political 'clout', so Cromwell moved against those first. Many of the powerful ones were persuaded (by a mixture of bribery and blackmail according to Sansom) to surrender voluntarily.

I agree! I want to read more books set during this period. So many focus on Henry and Anne Boleyn, but what about right after? The Pilgrimage of Grace? Very fascinating time.

I can remember seeing the film "Anne of the Thousand Days" many years ago, so I suppose I started with an interest in Henry and Anne too, but I became more interested in all the upheaval and how a domestic love triangle affected the whole country for centuries.