Goodreads Ireland discussion

This is the discussion thread for those members who wish discuss the group's November monthly read, The Road Home by Rose Tremain, without fear of posting spoilers.

Declan. :)

This book was very special to me in a lot of ways. It came to me at the right time and spoke to me at a lot of different levels. I was just so awed at Lev's spirit and his desire to live the best life possible.
I have been in a dispute with my 33 year old daughter. She ran up $1500 on my credit card and when I cancelled it, she quit speaking to me. Somehow she has decided that she's entitled to my money. I was, of course, heartsick at this and it has caused a lot of friction in the family. My boys are furious at her.
Any way, as I was reading this it just came to me. Every day she gets up, she choses to be a victim. That is how she lives her life. Everyone is out to get her. Everyone owes her. She would not have had the experiences Lev had because she would not choose to do so. A lot of Lev's good fortune came from his attitude and willingness to work hard. Betty would choose to believe that everyone wanted something from her and not take the helping hand. I can't tell you the relief it brought me. It is her choice to act this way and I can't change that. It just freed me so much. It's funny how much impact a book can have on your life.

I read this novel a year or so ago and found it to be an unsentimental, but touching story of an immigrant. This is the kind of book that can move those who are ambivalent or unsure about their attitude towards immigrants and immigration. Those who are anti-immigrant are unlikely to shift their attitudes though some of them may view Lev as the exceptional immigrant, being unable to assume others are like him. This is a book I would recommend to my students who are future teachers. I have them read a memoir as part of their course assignment, and prefer memoirs for this assignment as students are more likely to be moved by a "true story".

This book is set in the European context, and I think it is informative for American readers who may not realize the commonality of the immigrant experience, across nations and nationalities. One of the best US novels on the clash between immigrants and residents is TC Boyle's Tortilla Curtain. The best novel by an immigrant, and equally excellent, is The Beautiful Things That Heaven Bears by Dinaw Mengestu. Mengestu is of Ethiopian origin and the novel is set in Washington DC. It tells of the impact of growing gentrification in inner city DC on an immigrant's small business and poor neighborhood.

Susan wrote: "This book was very special to me in a lot of ways. It came to me at the right time and spoke to me at a lot of different levels. I was just so awed at Lev's spirit and his desire to live the best l..."

Susan - I am sorry to hear your daughter has behaved this way. So many Americans have an overblown sense of entitlement and it is not limited to the young. I see it everyday among adults in my workplace and in the general public. I think a lot of this is created by US media as we are constantly bombarded with messages that we deserve x,y and z. I am glad to hear your sons are on your side.

Thanks, Barbara, I appreciate that. It has been a difficult time.

It's good to know others fight about little things. It is your sister's wedding and if she wants no kids so be it. I am surprised your other sister isn't looking forward to a night off with a chance to have adult conversation. With four kids, I relished the opportunity.
I am curious to see Evi's reaction to the book. When I was in Ireland I was surprised to see the number of Eastern European immigrants. Then someone explained the EU to me (this was about 8 years ago. I am not so naive now). As Babara pointed out there are a number os similarities to our immigrants who are mostly Spanish speaking. I wonder how many helping hands there are for them as Lev had. Lev had the skill of hard work working for him just as many immigrants do.
I wonder if it's easier in the long run not to have a big support system like Evi and Lev didn't have. Here you will see large Hispanic family groups and they tend to only socialize with each other. They don't meet other people and, often, don't learn the language. They don't learn how to become a part of their new country. If you are by yourself you have to meet new people and learn the language and customs.

I guess that was my point. Immigrants like Evi choose to assimilate and have more successful experiences. I am impressed she bikes to work. It made me tired just to read that. She must have incredible patience to wait for Ricky for two year long sojourns. Whatever is he doing?

It is true that people who immigrate and are able to live in communities of people from their own country and language group will be perceived as resisting their "new" country's language and culture. Many Latinos come to work in order to support their families back home, and don't intend to settle in the US. But if they are undocumented, leaving means they may not get back and if they do, it will be after paying a great deal of money to a human smuggler (coyote). With the fortification of the southern US border, more and more cross through the desert. 477 died in 2012 -
http://fusion.net/justice/story/us-me...
Additionally for over two decades there have been long long waiting lists for English classes and this has only gotten worse. I once was able to sway the father of friends who was a judge who complained about immigrants not learning English by giving him some statistics on the number of people on waiting lists in LA. In the mid-90's there were something like 35,000 people on waiting lists. The situation has only grown worse:
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/201...
In my county, one of the wealthiest in the US, free and low cost English classes for immigrants were drastically cut back a few years ago. And finally, a reminder, that the American southwest WAS Mexico until 1848 and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo http://www.archives.gov/education/les...
Even in Boston, immigrants stayed in their "ghettos". I had friends who continued to speak their home language, lived in a parish full of people from the same country and region, and when they married, even married people from this area. They were Irish-speakers from Connemara. Spanish-speakers and Irish-speakers have a lot in common.

I am aware in the history of immigration, it is the children who usually assimilate. When I worked at the main Welfare office in Sacramento, we got lots of nationalities and most of them brought their children to translate. This was true for the Hmong, Pakistanis, etc. I stress that I am not just speaking of Hispanics.
A lot of it is cultural too. My friend married into an undocumented Mexican family here and one thing they do, that she didn't realize, is when you invite someone to dinner they bring the entire family. She invited her husband's sister and family over, a total of 5, and 25 showed up. They just do that in their culture.
What I like about America is that we incorporate things from all the cultures that come here. CA. never passes up a good holiday so we celebrate St Patricks Day and the Mexican Independence Day. I like the way we add bits of everyone's heritage to our own.

Allan wrote: "All very interesting points, well made, Barbara! People, no matter where they're from, are creatures of habit. When there's debate on integration in UK, I love it when someone points out to the nay..."

Are you not on a hot bachelor week-end, Allan? I thought you'd be out partying. Oh wait, it's not 6:30 Friday night there is it?

LMAO

This book is making me angry, now we have the stereotypical drunk Irishman.

I had an initial problem with that too, Kate. I started to think of him as one of the Irish who start to fall through the cracks overseas and that made him a little more acceptable and relevant to the story.

How far did you get with this book before you gave up, I'm on page 124 will plod on and read a few more pages.

I got as far as page 241 before I quit, Kate.

I like his friend Rudi, so I'll keep going just to find out what happens to him and his car.

I think most people have a friend like Rudi who just plods along happily regardless. He had some of the best lines of the book.

We discussed this book today in my inperson book club. Not one person said anything about page 241 so I brought it up. Well my friend in my Irish book club really hated this page, I said. None of them even remembered the scene. I said we just must have trained ourselves to skip those scenes.
Half the group loved the book- led by me. The other half of it hated it. They said it was depressing. They say that Lev never found happiness and led most of his life in the past. Then they discussed the ecological damage of flooding a town which had never occurred to me.
The main complaint though? How Lev treated Lydia. I had to agree. He did treat her badly.
It's interesting how two different groups viewed the book so differently.

Was there a big split within your group, Susan, of those who did and didn't like it?

Yes. It was about 50-50. Most of those that disliked it thought it was depressing and those of us who liked it thought it was uplifting. That's quite a difference of opinion.

It's certainly strange how different people's perceptions can be.

@ Declan I know why you stopped at page 241, it was so out of character, I was also wondering the mention of suspenders and no knickers, are we meant to assume she went around wanting to have sex, so this really doesn’t count as rape?

A nympho maniac can be raped. Anyone can be raped, even a wife. Rape is rape. I think page 241 is more proof of feminism moving 1 step forward and 3 steps back. Sigh...I guess it will always be a problem. The annoying thing is that a woman wrote it.

I don't know what goes on in a man's head and neither does she. It took me years to stop hating Gone With the Wind because of that one scene. Rhett rapes Scarlett and the next day she's all aglow like a honeymoon bride. I still hate that scene!

Jamielynn wrote: "A nympho maniac can be raped. Anyone can be raped, even a wife. Rape is rape. I think page 241 is more proof of feminism moving 1 step forward and 3 steps back. Sigh...I guess it will always be a p..."

Couldn't agree more. She might as well have written she was wearing a short skirt so was asking for it.

I-like-to-read wrote: "Jamielynn wrote: "A nympho maniac can be raped. Anyone can be raped, even a wife. Rape is rape. I think page 241 is more proof of feminism moving 1 step forward and 3 steps back. Sigh...I guess it ..."

It's annoying to me that a woman would write this way.

The no-means-yes aspect was half of my problem. The other half was that Lev simply flipped and raped her, and was too callous or stupid to realise forcing himself on a woman was rape.

I found the whole scene awful and disgusting.

Well it is stupid!!! Sometimes women can write the man's point of view and sometimes they can't. I would hope that men who are smart and not sociopaths or psychopaths would know what rape is. Heck you don't even have to be smart to know if you're violating someone.

It actually is as simple as that. A sociopath knows what they're doing is wrong. They just don't care. That wasn't Lev, though. Lev had a real conscience.

It's a case of bad writing.

I rather surprising case of bad writing, IMO.

The thing that annoyed me was that it was seemly so out of character for Lev...He was so tender especially toward the people at the old folk's home.

It felt like Tremain needed something dramatic to move the action forward (so Lev would leave G.K. Ash's) and just stuck the rape in to cause conflict. I feel like there were other ways to accomplish that goal though.

On the plus side of thing:

I love the description of Lev at work. In my opinion there are not enough novels now a days that focus on folk's "doing an honest day's work," so in that respect The Road Home was very refreshing. Tremain also has a wonderful descriptive way, especially with food. I constantly found myself hungry while reading. I also really like books in which the main character reads! Finally, I'm a sucker for a happy ending with Lev accomplishing his dream of restaurant ownership.

This book would have easily been a strong 4 star read if not for the rape scene.

I think your right, Sara. I do think it was necessary to have certain of repetition to portray the monotony of Lev's life in the kitchen, but I did have enough of it at that stage.

A happy ending would have been for more enjoyable if that scene wasn't hanging over it.

One of the things that came up in our Willits Book Club was the ending with the woe is me. One of the women said that that was very Irish. We looked at her in amazement and she said the Irish have a very dark outlook on life and are always living in the past. They can't seem to let go. I said I had some Irish friends who were not that way at all and someone else said that too. Still I realize that is very stereotypical view of the Irish. Do you guys have to deal with that misconception?

Funny, my dad very rarely talked about the past and when he did it was the good memories. He talked about riding his bike for miles. He talked about the ocean and the clouds and the incredible green. He talked about his colorful home town people. He talked about his family and even his pets. I heard very little negative. He did talk about the prejudice a little bit but that was extremely rare.

Furthermore he never took time to brood and he had an amazing sense of humor. Although he did have a fiery temper at times and he blew up blew over and blew out! Haha! He also like his drink now and again but he wasn't some hardcore alcoholic. He did have some stereotype stuff. He loved his church above all else and there were 6 of us kids!

I think she has a point, Susan, if somewhat exaggerated.

There's still an undercurrent of anti-English sentiment throughout Ireland, even if it is from a small minority. And of the people who fared well overseas, they were generally the ones who embraced emigration. The ones who failed, and failed badly, had one foot in the past.

Jamielynn, from what you told me of your father I'm not surprised he fared so well.

He had one excellent thing going for him too. Aside from his being him...His sister got married and came here first! She met my uncle in Ireland. Why they were stationed there during the war I have no clue. That helped A LOT. My uncle saw my aunt at church and was immediately smitten. Well she was very cute.

Susan I do think that some Irish authors and media portray Irish people as these dark, pessimistic unhappy people. To be honest I think Irish people love and embrace life. We do hold on to our history but what country doesn't

In the Articles... thread Allan posted an interesting article about the dark side if Irish literature.

I'd link to it but I've put my laptop away before bed.

Just read it there Declan and ya I'd agree with the general theme of the article. I think that may be why I don't read many Irish authors.

Yes, that article does point to that. Seraphina, I find the odd thing about America is that we did to embrace the history of other countries. We are all emigrants, except the Native Americans, so we celebrate a lot of different customs from other countries. As for our own country, Americans tend to be appalling illiterate about our history.

Thanksgiving is odd if you think about it. The white men came to America and destroyed the lives of Native Americans. We celebrate it. I realize people don't think of that at all. We just stuff food in til we blow up!

This book doesn't seem to have been very popular compared to Burial Rites. I have it but I haven't started really reading it yet. What is it like? Is it worth reading?

Ob the whole it seemed quite popular with the group, Marcia. I seem to be the only person who disliked it and that was based on almost entirely on one brief scene.

You may enjoy it.

Haha That happens to me too. A scene of a book or movie annoys me and I quit. Are we OK Declan? LOL!

We might be the only sane people in the world, Jamielynn. :)

Just finished. Quite enjoyed it overall.


Have just read all the comments here.

Which I don't really understand. This discussion reminds me of the fact that sometimes movie reviewers call certain movies misogynistic because the movie has a misogynistic character. That's not the same thing. I've never understood this argument. It's just not so clear cut. A simpler example is that a movie with racists in it is not (necessarily) a vehicle for racism.

Around this part in the book that you guys are discussing, we see that Lev has a very dark side, not just the rape scene. There's also hints that he has a very bad temper, and has probably done terrible things as a result.

For me, this is where the book really started to get... what's the word... interesting I guess. I can't believe this book had such one-dimensional cliched characters as the london arty types. And then we have Lev, a complex character who has both very good traits and very bad ones.

I don't understand how some of you think *Tremain* condones Lev's behaviour in this awful scene, or that *Tremain* implies that Sophie deserved it. It just shows her as someone atune to the complexities of humanity. No one is all good or all bad. Good people do terrible things every day. And vice versa. Even people who are mostly good have the potential to do very bad things.

Lev has turned out to be one of the more complex and interesting characters I've read in a while and I think Tremain has been brave to write him this way.

If we viewed humanity without it's warts, books and movies would be very dull affairs... I think.

Maybe I misconstrued some comments but I'm open to convincing here. My main point is that a character's politics or actions are not necessarily condoned by the author.

I also thought Christy turned out to be a relatively interesting character. I'd even go as far to say that it was your loss to write him off so early as a person before you got to know him. There's always more to a person than meets the eye. And I think Tremain has done a good job of depicting that.

You misconstrues quite a few of my comments, John. I didn't find the book misogynistic at all, but I did find that scene deeply misandristic. We have Lev, who has turned out to be a thoroughly decent man if somewhat jealous up to that point, but he rapes his ex because...? Why? That came from nowhere. And to make it all worse it's rounded off with a slice of 'it's not rape if she enjoys it!' I never thought she condoned Lev's behaviour, either. But I do think she got that scene wrong and it no place in the book. Lev couldn't decide whether or not he'd know IF he was raping her. That's how stupid I found that scene.

I'm surprised you have a problem with the art-scene stereotypes but not Christy. Certainly he was afforded more time than than the others but the we're a pretty shallow bunch and I'm sure they were supposed to lack depth.

I don't agree with the statement good people do terrible things...

It would take a lot of duress to force me to do anything close to terrible, and I'm sure that's tue of you too, John.

Declan wrote: "You misconstrues quite a few of my comments, John. I didn't find the book misogynistic at all, but I did find that scene deeply misandristic. We have Lev, who has turned out to be a thoroughly dece..."

Declan wrote: "You misconstrues quite a few of my comments, John. "

Well - I was kind of amalgamating a whole conversation that several of you had. Not just you. And the general vibe I got was that it was awful of Tremain to depict Sophia as someone who deserved it. I don't think she did that at all. Even if one of her characters did think along those lines.

I know your main point is that it was really out of character for Lev, and you're absolutely right, but that shit happens, every day in the world.

Declan wrote: "It would take a lot of duress to force me to do anything close to terrible, and I'm sure that's tue of you too, John. "

Indeed. Please don't think I'm writing from personal experience! Just what I know is out there. News stories. Non-fiction books etc. Other people I have witnessed in real life. It's just not so clean cut as good and bad people in the world.

I'm not saying that all good people can and will do really bad things. That would be nonsense of course. But there is a lot of evidence out there that shows shit just goes pear shaped sometimes. And good people do bad things. And vice versa. The world is much more complex than black & white, good V evil.

Maybe I'm over-egging this point. In general, sure prisons are full of bad motherfuckers. And decent people generally stay good. But there's a good few levs out there too.

I was being a bit defensive there, John. Sorry about that. But Lev had previous experience with handling jealousy in his marriage and nothing close to p. 241 happened as a result. If random things of that sort can simply happen without precedent or forewarning I don't see the point in developing a character. And as Lev was something of an everyman character I do feel it was rather sexist. Had he been more callous or unstable I really don't think I'd have had a problem with that scene.

Declan wrote: "We might be the only sane people in the world, Jamielynn. :)"

But we have to give some credit to those who decide to read a book til the end. I guess..I started 2 books by the same author. I tried one and she talked about some dumb little sex scene from her very young youth which amounted to playing doctor. So I ignored that one. I had heard she was funny and good so I tried another book with different characters..well she did it again!
Janet Evonavich (spelling wrong I'm sure) Anyway she's very popular but I thought if you are writing a book about your adult years why start with this crap? It was supposed to be funny but it was just stupid. So I have no interest in the author at all. She's obviously formulaic to start both books the same way.