THE Group for Authors! discussion

My work-in-progress, a novella for Young Adults titled Blood Sisters, is posted on Goodreads at
https://www.goodreads.com/story/show/....
So far I've posted five chapters. A couple of people gave me feedback of the first chapter only. Maybe it didn't interest them enough to go further? Anyhow, I really would appreciate reader feedback. I'm not looking for intense line editing, but just an overview, an honest reaction to the story and style. This is my first YA novel (tho not my first fiction) so I'm on shaky territory here. Thanks in advance for any reads and reactions.

Ill check it out...

Marcy wrote: "My work-in-progress, a novella for Young Adults titled Blood Sisters, is posted on Goodreads at
https://www.goodreads.com/story/show/....
So far I've posted fiv..."

THAT'S what a beta reader does.

Faith, should I be posting in Beta readers?

I just revised Chapter 1, based on 3 people's feedback. I wanted to make it more compelling, and I hope I have. If anyone is interested--same place, new words!

Marcy, I guess the only response I can make is to tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to get my book developed to the best of my ability and then hire some beta readers to just read through and give me their impressions, questions I didn't answer, themes they weren't satisfied with, that sort of thing. Then when I've responded to their comments, I'm going to hire an editor to check for spelling, grammar and any other errors.

I plan to do all of that because, when I write somthing I get too close to it to see the things I'm going to ask for help with. I absolutely can not see typos because I see what I think I wrote.

I never heard the term beta reader til I joined Goodreads. Why do we use it? What's wrong with just "reader"? (laughing a bit)

Just as a beta tester tests computer programs before they go out to the public, beta readers look at manuscripts before the author publishes them. It's a way to get feedback on your writing ahead of exposing it to the entire world with all its flaws.

Writers find it very valuable. You can't always know how your writing comes across to a reader until someone tells you. And it's best not to have friends and family do this task.

Marcy wrote: "I never heard the term beta reader til I joined Goodreads. Why do we use it? What's wrong with just "reader"? (laughing a bit)"

Marcy wrote: "I never heard the term beta reader til I joined Goodreads. Why do we use it? What's wrong with just "reader"? (laughing a bit)"

Using the term beta reader distinguishes it by purpose. The beta reader isn't there to edit your typos and won't take the time to do so. You just hire or trade services with someone who will give you overall first impressions.

Faith wrote: "Using the term beta reader distinguishes it by purpose. The beta reader isn't there to edit your typos and won't take the time to do so..."

As Judy says, above, "[I]t's best not to have friends and family do this task."

Right. And right. The aim of beta readers is to review the foundations of the book, i.e., to examine it from the story level, upward. This isn't easy.

Although they aren't there to critique spelling and punctuation, if your book has a lot of such errors, it may slow the reader and interfere with the task at hand.

Never, never, never have a friend or family member do the beta reading. The beta reader must be merciless, thorough, and professional. They're not there to pat you on the back. And be prepared that they may refuse to read the entire book after looking at just part of it.

Swapping beta reading services is only marginally better than asking a friend. Too often, it results in the blind leading the blind.

The author is ultimately responsible for the quality of the book in all aspects. Hiring a reader &/or editor is normal practice; just don't ask someone to fix a book free, especially if you haven't already made an effort to catch everything you could.

You're right about swapping services except in the case of established critique circles of professional writers who know how a book works and who give and expect merciless criticism.

Faith wrote: "You're right about swapping services except in the case of established critique circles of professional writers who know how a book works and who give and expect merciless criticism."

Yes. Not everyone, unfortunately, has access to such a circle.

Vicki wrote: "Please check out my new book trailer, any feedback will be greatly appreciated.
"Can you post the link for your trailer please Vikki. I am in the process of making one - nearly finished.

Beta readers are imperative, in my experience.

Re: editing, I find READING ALOUD once, twice, three or more times is what outs all those dang transposed words and typos.

Laure wrote: "...Re: editing, I find READING ALOUD once, twice, three or more times is what outs all those dang transposed words and typos."

Reading aloud is a good idea to help make your prose flow lyrically, like a stream instead of an avalanche.

But for catching typos, reading your m/s slowly backwards is the best.

J. wrote: "Laure wrote: "...Re: editing, I find READING ALOUD once, twice, three or more times is what outs all those dang transposed words and typos."

Reading aloud is a good idea to help make your prose fl..." I find that works best as well.

Laure wrote: "Beta readers are imperative, in my experience.

Re: editing, I find READING ALOUD once, twice, three or more times is what outs all those dang transposed words and typos."

I found this excellent application for this. I always do my editing/proofreading on a tablet. About a year ago, I found this text-to-voice app "Cool Reader". It takes a little learning, but you basically load your transcript (.pdf or .doc or many more). It was amazing how much stuff I discovered, miss-spelling, typos, punctuation and most importantly - pacing and rhythm. I know its an Android app. What I've been doing now is I listen to the book being read back to me, while I tweak the the transcript on my laptop. Amazing and a lot faster.

But for catching typos, reading your m/s slowly backwards is the best.


Why backwards??

Marcy wrote: "But for catching typos, reading your m/s slowly backwards is the best.


Why backwards??"

We see what we expect to see. In the case of our own prose, we see what we thought we wrote, not what we actually typed. Reading backwards forces us to slow down and grasp each word by itself. Very few typos can escape this method. Reading forwards will miss dozens of transpositions, etc.

Rabidreader wrote: I found this excellent application for this. I always do my editing/proofreading on a tablet. About a year ago, I found this text-to-voice app "Cool Reader".

Rabidreader, Thanks Bunches for prompting me to search around. On my Mac's operating system (Accessibility, under System Preferences) I located Voice Over. With this program reading my manuscript out loud, I located details missed by a ton of people including myself reading out loud many times. Definitely useful! Danke!

Laure wrote: "Rabidreader wrote: I found this excellent application for this. I always do my editing/proofreading on a tablet. About a year ago, I found this text-to-voice app "Cool Reader".

Rabidreader, Thanks..."

I'm glad I could help. I need to ask, did hearing through the Text-to-voice, cause you to alter the punctuation any?

I found that I was changing sentence structure to give the reader pauses, for effect, cadence and to simply eliminate long winded sentences. I now use Cool Reader when I write business documents (business plans, reports, and others) Lets face it, business documents can oly be read with lots of caffeine. Improving the cadence help keep the reader engaged. A great example is Radical Evolution by Joel Garreau. Its almost a science paper, but his style alone is engaging.

As I said, glad I could help.

In this last revision, I was taking out too many commas. I had written like I speak, with all kinds of pauses and circuitous subcontext. But, yeah, hearing the manuscript in a voice other than me speaking definitely helped me recognize when, say, I needed to put a comma back in.

Rabidreader wrote: "...I was changing sentence structure to give the reader pauses, for effect, cadence and to simply eliminate long winded sentences..."

Helpful, but be aware that commas and pauses are not always congruent.

J. wrote: "Rabidreader wrote: "...I was changing sentence structure to give the reader pauses, for effect, cadence and to simply eliminate long winded sentences..."

Helpful, but be aware that commas and paus..."

Understood. I don't just add commas, I rewrite the sentence structure.

ie. Using a worm running continuously on the internet, she collects real-time data, compiling economic metrics and news articles relating to the SuperElite and critical Elite.

vs

She uses a worm running continuously on the internet to collects real time data, compile economic metrics and news articles relating to the SuperElite and critical Elite.

When I went down this odd road of writing a book, now three in the last 18-months, I did a lot of research on popular writers. Not so much the celebrated writers of history, but writers of books readers are attracted now. What I found was that many write with marginal regard to grammatical convention (Rawlings, Mead, Clare, LaHaye for example. I understand EL James series is rife with grammar errors.)

I sat down and read, or at least tried to read, a book that I felt the writer tried to conform too rigidly to grammar accuracy. I put it down. The style lacked rhythm, sounded choppy and didn't flow. It was horribly distracting, and confusing.

That being said, everyone complains about to hack job writing of the 50-Shades series (I wouldn't know, haven't read so I'm writing out of context.) But I do know one thing, readers seem to like it. Now that says a lot about the mind of readers (a helluva lot of readers), that makes me nervous being the father of two preteen girls.

In short ... readers read that which capture their attention, and pleases the mind.

BTW, what does this even mean? ... commas and pauses are not always congruent.

I had to look it up ... and found nada. Must be an English lit thing.

Rabidreader wrote: "BTW, what does this even mean? ... commas and pauses are not always congruent..."

Not every pause occurs where a comma is needed.

Dialogue should be the easiest to add pauses to reflect (regardless of Grammar) where the writer wants a pause or hesitation in the speaker.

e.g. "I'm cold," he hesitated, "I want a warmer coat." Compared with "I'm cold, I want a warmer coat."

Both achieve the same pause or do they does one imply a longer pause? Which is correct/better/worse?

If it was recorded speech would it need a he said hesitantly<\i> to explain how the writer wanted the reader to understand.

Philip wrote: ' (a)"I'm cold," he hesitated, "I want a warmer coat." Compared with (b)"I'm cold, I want a warmer coat." '

Both, of course are incorrect. One says words; one doesn't hesitate them. (b) consists of 2 complete sentences, thus a comma is not used.

(a) should read: "I'm cold." He hesitated. "I want a warmer coat."

(b) should read: "I'm cold; I want a warmer coat."

I don't see the difference, here, between "recorded speech" and "dialogue." The rules of grammar and punctuation apply equally to both. Only the spoken words may violate grammatical rules, e.g.:

(c) "I is cold," he said, then hesitated. "I wants me a warmer coat."

I have to disagree J.

Your A sample, does not work for me because, (He hesitated.) is incomplete action since it does not explain why he hesitated, or how.

Your B sample is fine and what really should be used as the tag is unnecessary...

J. wrote: "Philip wrote: "I'm cold; I want a warmer coat." "

As an aside, my editor removed all of my semi-colons that were within quotation marks. She said people don't speak in semi-colons. :)

Is that all your editor did?

Philip wrote: "Dialogue should be the easiest to add pauses to reflect (regardless of Grammar) where the writer wants a pause or hesitation in the speaker.

e.g. "I'm cold," he hesitated, "I want a warmer coat."..."

I'd add some description. Show the reader he's freezing. Something like this:
"I'm cold." He dropped his chin into the jacket's thin collar, hunched his shoulders up and thrust his hands inside his pants pockets. "I want a warmer coat."

Nick wrote: "Is that all your editor did?"

No, that was just a small comment my editor made, something easily fixed.

Each edit of my stories involved the usual bruised ego and dead darlings, but the final stories were so much better than the original that I look forward to working with her on future stories.

That is a good and positive experience then, Kevin. Good luck with your future work...

I had a great experience with editing. Has anyone had a less positive experience with an editor?

Many Kevin, many...

So sorry to hear that. I highly recommend my editor - Arlene Prunkl, if you are looking for an editor.

I think being an editor is a bit like being a car mechanic, attorney, accountant, financial adviser,etc...

Just as paying bills, driving a car, reading the Wall Street Journal, or watching the Peoples Court doesn't make people an expert in those fields, neither does being an author make one a expert when it comes to the written word.

The process whereby one finds a good editor is similar to finding a good mechanic. You had better have some basic understanding or you stand a good chance of being taken. The challenge is learning enough to know the experts from the frauds while not starting to think you know more than the experts.

One thing that encouraged me to work with Arlene was the fact that she'd been a finalist for an important editorial award in Canada (where she lives). Since her peers clearly considered her good at what she does, I decided to work with her on a short story to see how it worked. Since that went well, I worked with her on my novel (which I just published recently).

LOOKING FOR BETA READERS

I would like five readers to beta read my next book, Dog Days of Summer (Romance). If anyone is interested, I would send you a PDF of the book and look for feedback before the book goes to editing.

Please email me: [email protected]

Faith wrote: "Marcy, I guess the only response I can make is to tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to get my book developed to the best of my ability and then hire some beta readers to just read through an..."

I understand the concept of hiring or just using a reader, esp. since I've been on both sides of the process many times. What I hadn't heard before joining GR is "beta" reader.

By the way, I am a professional editor. You can read testimonials and other info at my business website:

BOOKBUSTER: http://www.marcysbookbuster.wordpress...

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