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Changes
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Changes (Dresden Files #12), by Jim Butcher (Start Date: February 17, 2014)
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Lisa Kay, Moderator
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Feb 20, 2014 10:17AM
Thanks, Lauren.
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Oh Lisa Kay, I'm so sorry to hear that; my thoughts and prayers to you and your family.
Thank you, Joann.
Lauren wrote: "What did you ladies think of Susan's reaction to seeing Molly in Harry's apartment? I guess she doesn't realize that its Murphy she needs to worry about :0)"She still loves Harry , she hasn't been with anyone since Harry. and yes I agree , it's Murphy she needs to worry about !!
@ Lisa Kay#17. I think the debt came before that or maybe I'm wrong . Let me do a lil bit of search!
#22. Me too! I like to see them together
#25.Now I remembered Bob insisting that he should make a love portion but still not the rest.
#29.The donuts didn't have sprinkles.
#39. LOL @ Molly wanting to be licked
@ ShoSho#29 - Oops! Yes, I checked the book. You are correct. It read "unmarred by sprinkles."
@ Lauren#6. Hubby was tea drinker ,he would take it as an insult if I offered him coffee in the morning :D now he wakes up a few minutes before me to put the coffee on. I have converted him :D of course he is not addicted like me.
#12.Me too and badly!
#16.yes they must have :D
I used to be a big coffee drinker when I worked nights. To this day, coffee ice cream is my favorite flavor.
Lisa Kay wrote: "I used to be a big coffee drinker when I worked nights. To this day, coffee ice cream is my favorite flavor."I love coffee ice cream!
Coffee ice cream - yum!
I finished
too.I don't know what to read next.I'm stuck in Harry's universe.
When is the read for
Or you can maybe do a re-read of one of your favorite Dresden novels.
Probably 1st of March .
Lisa Kay I hope you didn't read the whole review of
that you liked, did you? It has a very big spoiler at the end !
I stopped before #12.5. :o)
I'll see if I can finish up the next section and post some final questions, if you all are still interested. Let me know.
Yes I'm interested!
Okay, great! I'll try to post before tomorrow morning. We'll see how it goes.
@Lisa Kay42. Aawww not good LK. Surprises are one of the best things in these books.
#47.I was surprised at the blood too. I didn't know they could do that. LOL @ roof and ceil! You're right!
Yeah, there are a lot of surprises in this series. Luckily, I've only had a couple ruined.
...people do get excited!
Lisa Kay wrote: "Yeah, there are a lot of surprises in this series. Luckily, I've only had a couple ruined."I had a big one and it was all my fault!
How far are you?
Getting ready to start Chapter 44. (O.M.G.!)
Lisa Kay wrote: "Getting ready to start Chapter 44. (O.M.G.!)"Didn't you love Mouse taking control ?
Lisa Kay wrote: "Yes! [spoilers removed]"Loved it so much, I listened to it 3 times.so I can laugh again :D
I'm on chapter 21 - sorry I haven't been a good buddy for this one. RL has gotten in the way :0(
ShoSho wrote: "Lisa Kay wrote: "I used to be a big coffee drinker when I worked nights. To this day, coffee ice cream is my favorite flavor."I love coffee ice cream!"
I love the smell of coffee but not the taste so that rules out the ice-cream, lol! Interesting that there is no tea flavored ice-cream - go figure!
There is green tea ice cream and it's so yummy but not black tea!
ShoSho wrote: "There is green tea ice cream and it's so yummy but not black tea!"Wow! We don't get that flavor. We have only just gotten mint chocolate chip and about bloody time too!
You should come here if only for the ice cream!!!
Nope. No Baskin Robbins. We barely get Ben & Jerry's in the local supermarket :0(The biggest ice-cream brand here is Walls. We also get Nestle and Häagen-Dazs but not all the flavors.
Lauren's Answers to Shosho’s question for Chapters 15-2717. No and no. It all makes me wonder what exactly Harry's mother gave to or did for Lea in order for the fae to protect Harry like this. Whatever it is, it must have been HUGE!
18.I understand that magic is genetic. Harry inherited it from his mother (although Thomas didn't but that could be because his father is a vampire) and Molly inherited it from her mother. The question is whether it is only passed through the matriarchal line. If not, then little Maggie is quite possibly a wizard. I'm hoping that she is and that her magic comes into play in the book.
19. The Fae are tremendously powerful and it does seem to suggest that there might be a cure for Susan and for Thomas but at what price?
20. I understood that Harry had to be ready for whatever his mother left him so he had to ask for it and Lea would not have given it to him otherwise.
Something tells me that accepting this gift is not going to be without repercussions for Harry.
21. Nothing except that they all make my skin crawl *shudder*
22. Yes, Molly does still have a crush on Harry. I hope that she grows out of it. I didn't like that kiss so I'm not going to judge Molly *sniff*
23. I never thought of the family being slaughtered - it was very graphic and disturbing. I do believe Susan and it makes me feel bad for her - not bad enough to overcome my dislike but bad...
24. Aww...I didn't notice but its really sweet.
25. If I remember correctly it was in Storm Front (I remember rain) and it was a love potion that left her feeling very amorous.
26. Looks like Luccio and some of the wardens have been imprisoned by Cristos "for their own good" - not sure if she is in danger. I don't think Cristos is willing to show his hand so early by killing them.
I don't think he has the senior council (at least not Ebenezer and probably not Langtry who is more powerful that Cristos. Nevertheless, they are keeping a low profile for their own reasons.
Yes, I loved that note. The Steed reference made me smile.
27. No I don't think he knows who Maggie is. I have a feeling he wouldn't be so cavalier about her death if he did. As I said, the senior council have their own agenda - I wonder if it will merge with Harry's at some point.
28.Ivy did help in the only way she could - by pointing Harry in the right direction.
Marcone is such a great character. I love the fact that he has his own moral code and kids are off limits. He also knows when something is in his best interests and doesn't mess around.
29. Donar is a very interesting character (aren't all of them, lol). Not sure how the tea and donuts can help but they immediately called to mind the huge Gruff who went off looking for a donut without sprinkles for Harry, lol!
30. Well sacrifice to the Gods is nothing new so it makes sense. As to the curse, I don't think it will affect the Raiths as they are not related to Maggie or Harry by blood. By killing Harry's entire bloodline, the Red court would elimiante any potential retribution. Of course, they don't know that Thomas would die and that would piss Lara off...
31. Sounds like it. I think that Harry is going to have to call on the fae for help - maybe the summer lady or even Mab, and she is going to want something in return...
32. The Red King is against Arianna's plans so why would he help her by getting Harry out of the way? Maybe there is another party in play that we don't know about.
33. Lol! Yes, that was funny. It never occurred to him that Harry might be a father.
34. Don't know if it will have significance but I really enjoy Butcher's literary allusions. If Harry is the Scarecrow and Thomas is the Tin Man, then who is the Cowardly Lion?
35. I actually think this might be a good idea - she is powerful and would benefit from it as well.
36. They are strange and their speech patterns are confusing.
The options are not very good for Harry - die or become an Eeb *eeek*. The whole chattel thing was yucky and as to Arianna manipulating Harry, its obvious but I don't know why. Wouldn't it be easier if she simply killed him?
37. I'm lost on this one.
38. The poor Blue Beetle. Now I"m upset. I hope it can be salvaged...
39. Very interesting Soulgaze - obviosuly Thomas is not so far gone that he doesn't have some goodness inside. Mouse and Molly sense it so maybe all is not lost and he can come back from the brink...
Mouse could easily have killed Thomas but didn't so there is still hope.
40. No idea - maybe the same person who put the squeeze on Rudolph.
@Joann17. Yes, someone had to be looking out for Harry or he would have been a goner by now.
36. LMAO!
@Lisa Kay18. I also agree with Joann - I actually didn’t think of Susan’s vampire blood being transferred to little Maggie. Hmmm….
22. I also want Molly and Ramirez to get together - much more appropriate than Molly crushing on Harry.
25. Yay! I remembered correctly :0)
26. Steed says that the stupid one got away. Is that Ramirez? Maybe he’ll be turning up on Harry’s doorstep soon.
@Lauren#17. I like to know their history too.
#18. I remember Harry saying that it was inherited through the mother. That's why in one of the books the white court vampires were killing women with magic.
#34. Yes I kept trying to see who else could be one of the characters.
Harry’s Conquistador-like armor; first one has the shoulder pauldrons mentioned.
Chichén Itzá
The Pillars at Chichén Itzá
The Temple in the Ball Court at Chichén Itzá
Inside the Ball Court at Chichén Itzá
Jaguar Warriors at Chichén Itzá
Priestess Alamaya and servant to the Great Lord Kukulkan (the Red King)
I know, I know! I have too many questions. Just answer what you want.Lisa Kay’s Questions for Chapters 39 – 49
50. Fidelacchius goes to Murphy. Were you surprised that Harry gave Amoracchius to Susan?
51. In Chapter 39 Harry is cast as “Sam” from Lord of the Rings, and not Gandalf, as he wanted. Also, Thomas refers to Martin as Boromir. Is this insight on his part, or just foreshadowing on JB’s? (Remember, it was Boromir who tried to seize the Ring for himself, causing Frodo’s flight.)
52. Duchess Arianna left some kind of disease in Edinburgh that’s laid up 60 wizards, including Injun Joe. Will this come into play with regards to the White Council in a later book? If only causing a reconstructed within White Council?
53. I had to laugh when Lea changed them all into hounds. Was this just harmless fun on her part, or a sign that she can’t be trusted? Mouse talked! LOL! And he took a stand with Lea. She called him a demon! (Blue light fell from his jaws.) Mouse admitted to cheating – and winning Harry! Comments.
54. Did you like that fire and ice magic combo ability that Harry has now?
55. Poor little frightened Maggie, in child-sized metal restraints, trying to keep her already dirty shoes & dress out of the blood; this broke my heart. And I still don’t know if she speaks English, and therefore understood Harry’s reassurances.
56. Okay, I didn’t buy for a moment that the Red King needed Priestess Alamaya as interpreter. Bah! And I picked up on how he promised Maggie would be safe until after the duel. You?
57. Whoa! Murphy’s “possessed” voice was something else. Was it an archangel?
58. Lea summons the Grey Council! I was NOT expecting that twist. Ebenezar gives Harry a staff and calls up his own Blackstaff. Comments.
59. Molly was shot, bleeding out and Thomas comes through to help apply a tourniquet. He reassures Harry he’ll protect her with his life – and Lea wasn’t worried. (BTW, I don’t like Lea’s interest in Molly at all!) All that blood. Were you doubtful? Thank goodness for Mouse. (I can just see him insisting on going on the helicopter with her! LOL!)
60. Okay, I’ll admit it; I was totally baffled by the brilliant white light cutting off the Red King’s hand. I had to re-read this part several times, even after I knew Susan was there, veiled, wielding Amoracchius. Were you lost, too? Or was it just me?
61. Eeeek! I was thinking Martin was such a little sh!t. So, so…despicable! And then Harry Soulgazed him, and like Boromir, he was redeemed. Comments.
62. What do you think about what Harry asked of Susan? For making the suggestion? For assisting her? Should he feel guilty?
63. I admit, I was completely shocked over the reverse curse and the end of the Red Court. I didn’t think this was possible. You? (This leaves the Black Court, the White Court, and the mysterious Jade Court.)
64. Margaret LeFay’s father is the one who killed Duke Ortega – meaning Ebenezar is Harry’s grandfather! What a twist! Did you have any suspicions? (I was wondering if there was some blood relationship in a prior book; however, I don’t remember in which one I thought of this possibility.)
65. What do you think? Is Cristos stupid or a member of the Black Council?
66. Vadderung showed up to help. Is it possible that Harry could be the next Merlin – the wizard, not the position?
67. Where will Maggie be placed? A loving, and safe, home, I hope. Will Harry ever see her again? Will she ever know he’s her father?
68. Sounds like Murphy will have some major changes taking place in her life, too. Being a cop is such a big part of her identity. Will she take up the sword?
69. Murphy essentially said she needed to get laid. And Harry offers to go with her, but feels awkward. Murphy blushes. They agree to go to the gym together. What might have been? Were they finally ready to move their relationship forward?
70. Whoa. Harry’s DEAD?! It sure seems like it to me. The light at the end of tunnel is a train? What is the significance of this? Or is this just more or JB’s humor? Will he really be like Gandalf, after his fight with Balrog, and come back to life? Talk about CHANGES!
71. JB insists that Changes doesn’t end in a cliff-hanger. Do you agree or disagree?
50. Fidelacchius goes to Murphy. Were you surprised that Harry gave Amoracchius to Susan? I was really glad that he gave it to Murphy but I was really surprised that he chose Susan . I was expecting him to ask Thomas. And again I was surprised that it didn't burn her.
51. In Chapter 39 Harry is cast as “Sam” from Lord of the Rings, and not Gandalf, as he wanted. Also, Thomas refers to Martin as Boromir. Is this insight on his part, or just foreshadowing on JB’s? (Remember, it was Boromir who tried to seize the Ring for himself, causing Frodo’s flight.)
For some wired reason I was thinking Harry wanted to be froddo! But gandalf make much more sense. I go for foreshadowing!
52. Duchess Arianna left some kind of disease in Edinburgh that’s laid up 60 wizards, including Injun Joe. Will this come into play with regards to the White Council in a later book? If only causing a reconstructed within White Council?
I don't than think so. They'll probably will be healed by the start of next book
53. I had to laugh when Lea changed them all into hounds. Was this just harmless fun on her part, or a sign that she can’t be trusted? Mouse talked! LOL! And he took a stand with Lea. She called him a demon! (Blue light fell from his jaws.) Mouse admitted to cheating – and winning Harry! Comments.
this part was one of the funniest parts in all the books. The first words that Mouse said "that bitch ".I laughed so hard I had tears in my eyes and I listened to it at least 3 times. I go for harmless fun in this case but she can't be trusted either.
I am very curious about Mouse. He's obviously not just a dog. I want explanation for that winning part. I think I can imagine what that cheating part meant .he gets his power from a source when in Tibet, now his source is Harry.
54. Did you like that fire and ice magic combo ability that Harry has now?
yes and no. I liked that he's more powerful but I don't like that his power comes from the winter.!
55. Poor little frightened Maggie, in child-sized metal restraints, trying to keep her already dirty shoes & dress out of the blood; this broke my heart. And I still don’t know if she speaks English, and therefore understood Harry’s reassurances.
yes I doubt that she does!
56. Okay, I didn’t buy for a moment that the Red King needed Priestess Alamaya as interpreter. Bah! And I picked up on how he promised Maggie would be safe until after the duel. You?
no It didn't occure to me that he doesn't understand English!
57. Whoa! Murphy’s “possessed” voice was something else. Was it an archangel?
it was creepy for her but I liked it. Yes I'd say it was one of archangels
58. Lea summons the Grey Council! I was NOT expecting that twist. Ebenezar gives Harry staff and calls up his own Blackstaff. Comments.
I wasn't expecting that either but that was a really interesting twist. I wonder what else is going between the fairies and black grey and white council.
59. Molly was shot, bleeding out and Thomas comes through to help apply a tourniquet. He reassures Harry he’ll protect her with his life – and Lea wasn’t worried. (BTW, I don’t like Lea’s interest in Molly at all!) All that blood. Were you doubtful? Thank goodness for Mouse. (I can just see him insisting on going on the helicopter with her! LOL!)
and Murphy gave the phone number to Mouse. Lol
60. Okay, I’ll admit it; I was totally baffled by the brilliant white light cutting off the Red King’s hand. I had to re-read this part several times, even after I knew Susan was there, veiled, wielding Amoracchius. Were you lost, too? Or was it just me?
61. Eeeek! I was thinking Martin was such a little sh!t. So, so…despicable! And then Harry Soulgazed him, and like Boromir, he was redeemed. Comments.
I KNEW it!
62. What do you think about what Harry asked of Susan? For making the suggestion? For assisting her? Should he feel guilty?
it was a brilliant idea but in a cruel way! He got her angry at Martin ,he caused her to be a vampire . It was so deliberate. He should and would feel guilty. But it was the only way to achieve what they did!
63. I admit, I was completely shocked over the reverse curse and the end of the Red Court. I didn’t think this was possible. You? (This leaves the Black Court, the White Court, and the mysterious Jade Court.)
I was sure that a vampire will end up on the alter as the sacrifice. There were so many hints. But I couldn't guess by sacrificing the youngest they could destroy them all!
64. Margaret LeFay’s father is the one who killed Duke Ortega – meaning Ebenezar is Harry’s grandfather! What a twist! Did you have any suspicions? (I was wondering if there was some blood relationship in a prior book; however, I don’t remember in which one I thought of this possibility.)
there was something in one of the books that had me thinking Ebenezer could be Margaret's father. I can't remember what it was but as a result it wasn't a huge surprise to me. But I liked it so much! I want a meeting between ebenezer and Thomas. I want to see their reactions!
65. What do you think? Is Cristos stupid or a member of the Black Council?
I'll go for black council
66. Vadderung showed up to help. Is it possible that Harry could be the next Merlin – the wizard, not the position?
what do you mean?
67. Where will Maggie be placed? A loving, and safe, home, I hope. Will Harry ever see her again? Will she ever know he’s her father?
the way it all ended I doubt that she will be in the future books. I think she'll be in the background for a while
68. Sounds like Murphy will have some major changes taking place in her life, too. Being a cop is such a big part of her identity. Will she take up the sword?
I want her too. I hope she does
69. Murphy essentially said she needed to get laid. And Harry offers to go with her, but feels awkward. Murphy blushes. They agree to go to the gym together. What might have been? Were they finally ready to move their relationship forward?
gym? Is this a typo, LK?
They decided to go out and have a drink. Basically a date! I knew they wouldn't. Harry dying at the end of this book was my huge spoiler:(
In aftermath (the novella ) Murphy is the one who finds the blood spattered water beetle . She has shown up in a red top slacks high heeled shoes and make-up
http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Af...
70. Whoa. Harry’s DEAD?! It sure seems like it to me. The light at the end of tunnel is a train? What is the significance of this? Or is this just more or JB’s humor? Will he really be like Gandalf, after his fight with Balrog, and come back to life? Talk about CHANGES!
he'll be back! He is dead but there is a way for him to come back. I'm sure there is some significant to the train but don't know what!I think Harry is really dead. who shoot him? Any guesses?
With his death he won't be the winter Knight anymore though!!!!
71. JB insists that Changes doesn’t end in a cliff-hanger. Do you agree or disagree?
I don't see it as a cliffhanger. I knew it was going to happen I accidentally read the first sentence of the blurb for the ghost story. Was it a cliffhanger for you?
@ ShoSho#50 – I was shocked, too. I don’t know if I was expecting him to give it to Thomas, but I wasn’t expecting Susan to be the recipient. I guess it is all about intentions.
#51 – LOL! Yes, I thought of Froddo, too… so not so weird.
#52 – Hmmm… I think it will have far-reaching effects.
#53 – Yes, I had to listen to it, too. I agree with every sentence your wrote… excepted I didn’t know the last.
#55 – Aww…
#56 – I just want to scream, “Oh, he’s a fake!” to Harry.
#58 – Good question!
#59 – Oh, yes! The phone number. FOFLMBO!
#61 – You did? All of it, or just the seeming betrayal? I’m impressed.
#62 – Yeah, there really wasn’t another way out.
#63 – I figured someone on the other side would end up on the altar. I just didn’t figure it would wipe out the Red Court, and I certainly didn’t think it would be Susan.
#64 – Yeah, I distinctly remember wondering at one point if he was his father (but nicks that quick) or grandfather or uncle. I remember going through the series of possibilities. Yes, really enjoyed it. And… Thomas & Ebenezar? Cool. LOL!
#66 – Like the Original Merlin. Another great wizard. during King Arthur he was custodian of the sword Amoracchius. He wrote the Laws of Magic. Seems like some need to be rewritten… like the one that almost got Molly beheaded.
#67 – Probably.
#68 – I think she will.
#69 – No, no type-o. She asked him, “I suppose you exercise.” I assumed she was going to have them work-out. Or is this a euphemism for something else? I figured it was a date – Murphy’s idea of a date – so, I’m surprised she showed up in heels (I figured she’d be the one to find Harry).
#70 – I haven’t a clue who shot Harry. I do think that Mab will still want him to be Winter Knight. Maybe she brings him back, just for that purpose?
#71 – I had heard way before I even thought about reading the series that this happens – people were in such an uproar about it before Ghost Story was published. So, no, not too surprised. Still, stunned. And shocked, yes. Though I knew it was coming, I figured it would happen IN Ghost Story. For those readers back then that didn’t have the next book, yes, it is a hell of a cliff-hanger.
I have had such a strange feeling these last two days that I'm supposed to be reading Dresden. I guess that is due to (view spoiler)
@ Lisa Kay#53. I don't know that either , I'm just guessing.
#61.I'm good but not that good :D no I knew Maggie's kidnapping is somehow his fault .I believed him when he said he'd do anything to destroy the Red King. I hadn't guessed that he was the Red King agent!
#69.That conversation went something like this
Murphy:"I want to get drunk and then have sex with the first reasonably healthy male that walks by "
Harry:" do you want company?"
Murphy:"you exercise that makes it easy" (referring to being healthy )
#70. I'm thinking the death will cause the winter knight power to go back to Mab ,so he is not the Winter knight anymore. She still wants him but maybe she can't have him!
Lisa Kay wrote: "I have had such a strange feeling that last two days that I'm supposed to be reading Dresden. I guess that is due to [spoilers removed]"Me too! I haven't started an audio book since Thursday and it's Monday now. I'll start something today I need my lunch time walk but I want Harry!
Thanks for the Mayan pics, Lisa Kay. They really help to visualize the scenes :0)
I hope we haven't given you spoilers, Lauren.
Not at all, ShoSho. I'm skipping over everyone's answers until I get to that section. I'm on chapter 36 now so should be ready to answer the next set of questions by this evening after work.
@ ShoSho#61 – But, in the end, (view spoiler)
#69 – **smacks forehead** Duh! I certainly didn’t get that. **hangs head in shame**
#70 – Aw… well, (view spoiler)
Romance Lovers for the Challenge-Impaired
Books mentioned in this topic
Side Jobs (other topics)Ghost Story (other topics)
Side Jobs (other topics)
The Angel of Darkness (other topics)
Changes (other topics)
