Victorians! discussion

To discuss these chapters

Is there a suggested overall schedule for the reading, or are we to simply read at our own paces and post in the appropriate threads? (Or did I miss the schedule somewhere! [oops?])

I actually read this a year ago; I hope I can remember enough to add to the discussion!

Here are the chapter headings for these six chapters, as an aid as to what to discuss in this thread:

Chapter 1. Mr. Vavasor and His Daughter
Chapter 2. Lady Macleod
Chapter 3. John Grey, the Worthy Man
Chapter 4. George Vavasor, the Wild Man
Chapter 5. The Balcony at Basle
Chapter 6. The Bridge over the Rhine

http://web.archive.org/web/2008120122...

Chapter 1 seems to have a misprint on this site. My ebook agrees with Eman's comment @12, so I am revising.

Here is Trollope on the Victorian Web. SPOILERS definitely exist in this material, so if you care, be careful.

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/t...

Lily wrote: "Is there a suggested overall schedule for the reading, or are we to simply read at our own paces and post in the appropriate threads? (Or did I miss the schedule somewhere! [oops?])"

Start on or about December 1 and finish on or about mid to late January...

Lily wrote: "Here are the chapter headings for these six chapters, as an aid as to what to discuss in this thread:

Chapter 1. Mr Mavasor and His Daughter
Chapter 2. Lady Macleod
Chapter 3. John Grey, the Worth..."

Thank you for posting the chapters... I couldn't because only a certain amount of letters are permitted in the topic headings.

Marialyce wrote: "Thank you for posting the chapters..."

Most welcome, Marialyce. I only did it because the Victorian Web link made it so easy. I was figuring out the chunks for myself, so decided to just slap into the first available message for each of the threads you had created so they could always be near the start for easy reference.

I see Alice referred to as "Alice Vavasor" and her father as "Mr. Mavasor." I think I missed something as to the significance of these names.

I think I would enjoy a copy of this novel with some of those old fashioned illustrations. Having recently read Magic Mountain, I wanted the different balcony setting at Basle, especially with the River Rhine nearby.

In looking for illustrations, I came across this about film adaptations of Trollope novels which may be of interest to some of you.

http://ellenandjim.wordpress.com/2009...

A cursory read did not indicate a film version of this novel, Can You Forgive Her?

Here's what I was looking for, although not sure I don't like the images in my imagination better:

http://www.jimandellen.org/trollope/B...

http://www.jimandellen.org/trollope/p...

Lily wrote: "I see Alice referred to as "Alice Vavasor" and her father as "Mr. Mavasor." I think I missed something as to the significance of these names."

I think the Mavasor is a misprint. My Oxford edition has him at Vavasor also.

Everyman wrote: "I think the Mavasor is a misprint. My Oxford edition has him at Vavasor also...."

Thx! I revised @4.

Marialyce wrote: "Lily wrote: "Is there a suggested overall schedule for the reading, or are we to simply read at our own paces and post in the appropriate threads?

Start on or about December 1 and finish on or about mid to late January."
..."

There were eleven discussion sections posted. Given about 60 days from December 1 to the end of January, if all were equally spread out that would mean about 5 days per section. Of course some will read faster and some slower, but for myself I figure if I plan on finishing Volume 1 by Christmas I'll be about on track. I don't like getting too far ahead of or behind the other readers.

Everyman wrote: "I don't like getting too far ahead of or behind the other readers..."

Given no published schedule, I'm letting the story dictate to me insofar as possible, although I agree yours is the more sensible approach for a group reading.

Lily wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I don't like getting too far ahead of or behind the other readers..."

Given no published schedule, I'm letting the story dictate to me insofar as possible, although I agree yours ..."

Didn't I read in another thread that you had looked up a Wordsworth poem in connection with CYFH? Come on, share!

Everyman wrote: "Didn't I read in another thread that you had looked up a Wordsworth poem in connection with CYFH? Come on, share! ..."

Patience. It's coming up. Chapter 27 is The Priory Ruins. One of the nice things about having all the threads up is that I can post little tidbits that are not really spoilers, just more background, even if people jump there.

It's posted if you want to look. I was trained that scanning a table of contents was a good reading practice. Others consider it risking spoilers! But in this case, that section is where I am reading at the moment.

Beware of possible SPOILERS: A list of 52 characters is here, most described by quotations from the book (there appear to be duplicates, haven't actually counted):

http://www.amazon.com/Can-You-Forgive...

(view spoiler)[

Characters & Important People (52?)

Alice Vavasor: "In person she was tall and well made, rather large in her neck and shoulders, as were all the Vavasors, but by no means fat. Her hair was brown, but very dark, and she wore it rather lower upon her forehead than is customary at the present day. Her eyes, too, were dark, though they were not black, and her complexion, though not quite that of a brunette, was far away from being fair. Her nose was somewhat broad, and retrouss~, too, but...it was a charming nose, full of character and giving to her whole face at times a look of pleasant humour, which it would otherwise have lacked. Her mouth was large and full of character, and her chin oval, dimpled ' and finely chiselled.... a fine, handsome, high-spirited young woman."
Jeffrey Palliser: Cousin of Plantagenet Palliser, who would have been his heir had no son been born to Lady Glencora.
Kate Vavasor: George's adoring sister, who lived with the old Squire at Vavasor Hall. George persuaded her that, after breaking her engagement with him, Alice Vavasor still owed him her financial aid in contesting a seat in Parliament, and Kate arranged the trip to Switzerland on which they succeeded in inducing Alice to furnish the necessary money.
Mrs. Greenow (repeated below -- Mrs. Arabella Greenow)
George Vavasor: Cousin of Alice Vavasor, to whom he was twice engaged. Disinherited by his grandfather, he forced Alice to lend him money to contest a seat in Parliament, which, being won, had to he contested a second time, with more demands for funds, When he lost his seat and the respect of all his friends, quarreled with Alice and tried to kill her fiancee John Grey, he emigrated to America.
Duchess Of Omnium, Lady Glencora Palliser (Maccluskie): "She was a fair girl, with bright blue eyes and short wavy flaxen hair, very soft to the eye. Lady Glencora was short in stature, and her happy round face lacked, perhaps, the highest grace of female beauty. But there was ever a smile upon it which it was very pleasant to look at; and the intense interest with which she would dance, and talk, and follow up every amusement that was offered her, was very charming."
Mr. Cheesacre (repeated below -- Samuel Cheesacre)
Mr. John Grey: "A man of high character, of good though moderate means; he was, too, well educated, of good birth, a gentleman, and a man of talent ...He was tall and very handsome, with brown hair, and bright blue eyes, and a mouth like a god."
Mr. Bott: "He was a tall, wiry, strong man, with a bald head and bristly red beard, which, however, was cut off from his upper and lower lip. This was unfortunate, as had he hidden his mouth he would not have been in so marked a degree an ugly man. His upper lip was long, and his mouth was mean."
Calder Jones
Bellfield (repeated below - Captain Bellfield)
Mr. Scruby
Mrs. Marsham: " had many good points. She was poor, and bore her poverty without complaint. She was connected by blood and friendship with people rich and titled; but she paid to none of them egregious respect on account of their wealth or titles.... She was a little woman, with small sharp eyes, with a permanent colour in her face, and two short, crisp, grey curls at each side of her face; always well dressed, always in good health ... altogether incapable of fatigue."
Jeannette: The maid of Mrs. Greenow, and an expert in assisting her mistress in her affairs of the heart.
Lady Macleod: The widow of Sir Archibald Macleod, with whom Alice Vavasor lived in her youth. She was a pathetic hanger-on of the wealthy and titled members of her family, and tried to teach Alice reverence for them.
Mr. Tombe: "Mr. Tombe was a remarkable man in his way. He wore powder to his hair - was very polite in his bearing - was somewhat asthmatic, and wheezed in his talking, - and was, moreover, the most obedient of men, though it was said of him that he managed the whole income of the Ely Chapter just as he pleased."
John Vavasor: "...a handsome man, with a fine forehead, round which the hair and beard was only beginning to show itself to be grey. He stood well, with a large person, only now beginning to become corpulent. His eyes were bright and grey, and his mouth and chin were sharply cut, and told of gentle birth." (Father of Alice.)
Duke Of Omnium (Plantagenet Palliser): "He was a tall thin man ...with nothing in his appearance that was remarkable. It was a face that you might see and forget ... showing intellect in the forehead, and much character in the mouth. The eyes too, though not to be called bright, had always something to say for themselves, looking as though they had real meaning.... He was horn in the purple, noble himself, and heir to the highest rank as well as one of the greatest fortunes in the country ... and yet he devoted himself to work with the grinding energy of a young penniless barrister labouring for a penniless wife, and did so without any motive more selfish than that of being counted in the roll of the public servants of England."
Burgo Fitzgerald: "...a terribly handsome man about town, who had spent every shilling that anybody would give him, who was very fond of brandy, who was known, but not trusted, at Newmarket, who was said to be deep in every vice ...","...a young man born in the purple of the English aristocracy. He was related to half the dukes in the kingdom, and had three countesses for his aunts.... He was one of those young men with dark hair and blue eyes,- who wear no beard, and are certainly among the handsomest of God's creatures."
Duke Of Omnium, (The Old Duke): Uncle of Plantagenet Palliser, who was his heir. Haughty and unapproachable, he was the embodiment of the ducal tradition.
Maxwell
Charlie Fairstairs (See Charlotte Fairstairs w/kin below.)
Anne Street
William
Grindley
Mr. Grimes (Repeated below -- Jacob Grimes)
Lady Monk: "...now about fifty years of age, who had been a great beauty, and who was still handsome in her advanced age. Her figure was very good. She was tall and of fine proportion.... She was a comely, handsome, upright dame, - one of whom, as regards her outward appearance, England might be proud.... She had come of the family of the Worcestershire Fitzgeralds, of whom it used to be said that there never was one who was not beautiful and worthless."
Mrs. Conway Sparkes: "...a literary lady, who had been very handsome, who was still very clever, who was not perhaps very good-natured," and who feuded with the Duchess of St. Bungay at Lady Glencora's house party at Matching Priory.
Scruby
Mrs. Arabella Greenow: Aunt of Alice, George and Kate Vavasor. She had married an old man when she was twenty-four and, when he died shortly after, was left with a fortune of £40,000. Although her grief for him was uncontrolled, she was not too discouraging to her suitors, and married Captain Bellfield.
Samuel Cheesacre: Mrs. Greenow's unsuccessful suitor, whom she induced to marry Charlie Fairstairs.
Capt. Gustavus Bellfield: "He was a well-made man, nearly six feet high, with dark hair, but of that suspicious hue which to the observant beholder seems always to tell a tale of the hairdresser's shop. He was handsome, too, with well-arranged features, - but carrying, perhaps, in his nose some first symptoms of the effects of midnight amusements...."
Lady Margaret Midlothian: One of Alice Vavasor's wealthy relatives, who most officiously and persistently interfered in Alice's love affairs. When Alice was taken up by Lady Glencora and her marriage to Mr. Grey was planned to take place at Matching Priory, Lady Margaret showed her forgiveness to her erring niece by allowing her daughters Lady Jane and Lady Mary to he in the wedding party.
Mr. Travers: The candidate in opposition to George Vavasor for the Chelsea seat in Parliament.
Squire Vavasor: Grandfather of Alice, Kate and George.
Mr. Gogram: "...an attorney who lived at Penrith, and who was never summoned to Vavasor Hall unless the Squire had something to say about his will."
Sir Cosmo Monk: A Liberal MP earlier at the Treasury. In Chapter 76 incorrectly called Sir Charles. He did not agree with his wife in her fondness for her nephew Burgo Fitzgerald.
Mr. Round: Alice Vavasor's London lawyer.
Duchess Of St. Bungay: An aunt of Lady Laura Standish, so convinced of her own importance that she bitterly resented those who did not bow down to her, and embarrassed her distinguished husband with constant complaints of fancied slights.
Duke Of St. Bungay: One of the most distinguished of the top-flight political personages, appearing in each of the six novels in the Parliamentary series. He was most successful as President of the Council, where his broad knowledge of events and personalities made him the ideal mediator. His youngest son was Lord James Fitz Howard.
Palliser, Euphemia And Iphigenia Theodata: Two elderly cousins of Plantagenet Palliser, very proud of their relationship, and of their annual invitation to visit at Matching Priory. In Chapters 69 and 79 Euphemia is called Sophy.
Dandy and Flirt: Lady Glencora Palliser's horses, which she drove when she was at Matching Priory.
Charlotte (Charlie), Fanny And Joe Fairstairs: Mrs. Greenow's protegees at Yarmouth. Through her management Mr. Cheesacre was induced to propose to Charlotte.
Jacob Grimes: The proprietor of the public house, the Handsome Man, which, in George Vavasor's first election, served as his headquarters.
Hartletop, Marchioness Of Griselda (Grantly): Daughter of Archdeacon Grantly of Barchester. Her mother and Lady Lufton desired to marry her to Lord Lufton, but she married, instead, Lord Dumbello, who later became the Marquis of Hartletop. Plantagenet Palliser once made tentative love to her.
Lord Kilfenora: Defeated George Vavasor for the seat representing Chelsea in the Commons. At the death of his father, the Marquis of Bunratty, he was moved up to the House of Lords, leaving George to contest the seat with Mr. Travers for only part of a session.
Mr. Levy: George Vavasor's clerk, who was sent to Alice to demand additional money for election expenses.
Mr. Magruin: A moneylender with whom both Burgo Fitzgerald and George Vavasor had unfortunate dealings.
Marchioness Of Auld Reekie: Helped to make the Melmottes socially accepted by attending Marie Melmotte's great coming-out ball.
Marquis Of Auld Reekie: Uncle and guardian of Lady Glencora MacCluskie who arranged her marriage to Plantagenet Palliser. He insisted that his son Lord Nidderdale should try to marry Marie Melmotte for her money.
Lord Brock: The Prime Minister who was succeeded by Lord de Terrier.
Marquis Of Bunratty: Father of Lord Kilfenora.

(hide spoiler)]

I am deeply enjoying this book. Even where I think it could have benefited by some strong-willed editing, I have been pulled into what I call a "good read" -- a book I want to read as quickly as possible to learn the resolution of its plot lines, but with enjoyable characters and character development.

Lily wrote: "I am deeply enjoying this book. Even where I think it could have benefited by some strong-willed editing, I have been pulled into what I call a "good read" -- a book I want to read as quickly as p..."

Lily, I am only up to chapter four but have to ask if you find that quite typical characters thus far?

Marialyce wrote: "Lily, I am only up to chapter four but have to ask if you find that quite typical characters thus far?...."

Marialyce -- not certain I understand your question, but I would say that the characters introduced in the first chapters are quite typical of the characters introduced throughout the book. Obviously, they all belong to the period of the setting, they are of a variety of economic standings, most have both strong positive and rather strong negative characteristics -- making them interesting and somewhat unpredictable. The main characters continue to take provocative positions, both for themselves and relative to others, which I think is what has been keeping the story engrossing. I hope I can safely say that without in any way being a spoiler -- just that I think the reader is in for a good ride. It seems to me that there is fairly good layering of the development of the characters relative to their importance to the plot lines, so some of the very minor characters might approach caricature and even offer miniatures of humor, but I don't consider that applicable for the primary and secondary characters.

As I near completion, I am finding myself more and more curious about Trollope, our author.

For the balcony scene at Basle, I rather like the cover picture on the Penguin edition. I don't have ready access to it; is anyone using that edition and, if it identifies the cover illustration, would you please share that info?

I, too, am curious about the author. It's remarkable that a man of that era can seem so deftly able to mine the inner thoughts of a woman. I really enjoy books that delve deeply into the main characters' minds. The plot can develop slowly, I'm in no hurry. I'll enjoy the ride in immersing myself into Alice's world and her predicaments.

Trudy wrote: "...It's remarkable that a man of that era can seem so deftly able to mine the inner thoughts of a woman...."

Actually, more than one woman! But of men, too.

Yet there are critiques that suggest Trollope can get tangled in his own coat-tails.

I'm only to chapter four so far! I'm glad he gets into the head of men as well. I like balance in tales involving romance/marriage. Too many novels give only the female perspective. I love knowing what's going on internally with both sides.

Trudy wrote: "I'm only to chapter four so far! I'm glad he gets into the head of men as well. I like balance in tales involving romance/marriage. Too many novels give only the female perspective. I love knowing ..."

I really "loved" some of the things he said about/for men. At times, Trollope almost seemed to be giving them a "to-do" guide, even as he was suggesting where their heads were at.

I'll be curious if you think his intended readers were men as well as women. I happen to think they were. (The term "target market" may not have been used yet, but I suspect the concept was understood by writers and publishers.)

Lily wrote: "Trudy wrote: "I'm only to chapter four so far! I'm glad he gets into the head of men as well. I like balance in tales involving romance/marriage. Too many novels give only the female perspective. I..."

I agree...his audience would seem to have been both men and women. I thought the chapter that dealt with the concept of how we never lose sight of our wealthy family was interesting. I had never really thought too much of how that so often occurs. I believe the author has set up a nice little love triangle in the characters of Alice, George, and John. Wonder if she will give up John in favor of George. Interesting too, that Kate seems to be in the midst of all this and is conniving in her own way to see that Alice breaks it off with John. John is quite a trusting soul to have let his fiancé go off with her ex fiancé. Surely, this could be a recipe for disaster.

Marialyce wrote: "...John is quite a trusting soul to have let his fiancé go off with her ex fiancé. Surely, this could be a recipe for disaster. ..."

Well, yes. But if trust is the fundamental basis of relationships... Trollope felt years ahead of his time to me on that one to create such a character. But in the modern work world, couples often must do such or similar on a regular basis. (It still surprises me when I encounter those who bemoan such realities.)

My one foreshadowing -- to my mind, Trollope will do a wonderful job of probing the impacts of his characters' choices, both John Grey's and those of his other characters. Yes, you will find it hard to stifle my enthusiasm about this novel, even though... well, wait.

I believe Kate is what you call a "frenemy".

Chapter 3. John Grey, the Worthy Man

"...Were you in danger of meeting Paynim foes, he, no doubt, would kill them off much quicker than I could do, and would be much more serviceable in liberating you from the dungeons of oppressors, or even from stray tigers in the Swiss forests. But I doubt his being punctual with the luggage. He will want you or Kate to keep the accounts, if any are kept. He will be slow in getting you glasses of water at the railway stations, and will always keep you waiting at breakfast. I hold that a man with two ladies on a tour should be an absolute slave to them, or they will not fully enjoy themselves. He should simply be an upper servant, with the privilege of sitting at the same table with his mistresses. I have my doubts as to whether your cousin is fit for the place; but, as to myself, it is just the thing that I was made for. Luckily, however, neither you nor Kate are without wills of your own, and perhaps you may be able to reduce Mr. Vavasor to obedience."

Trollope, Anthony (2012-05-12). Can You Forgive Her? (pp. 17-18). Kindle Edition.

I couldn't quite decide if John Grey was pleading for himself to replace George Vavasor or not in this clever little tongue-in-cheek piece with its perhaps bit (or a lot?) of political incorrectness ("Paynim") by today's standards.

Of course, we latter learn that the ladies essentially wait on George! Part of Trollope's low key humor that so often runs through the text and which I enjoyed.

I enjoyed John Grey's letter to Alice. I don't need a man who is such a romance novel man, but can't find an umbrella in the rain! It's what is really needed. You can't spend your life in high drama.

Chapter 4. George Vavasor, the Wild Man

"In talking of beauty to his sister he had spoken of himself as being ugly. He would not generally have been called ugly by women, had not one side of his face been dreadfully scarred by a cicatrice, which in healing, had left a dark indented line down from his left eye to his lower jaw. That black ravine running through his cheek was certainly ugly. On some occasions, when he was angry or disappointed, it was very hideous; for he would so contort his face that the scar would, as it were, stretch itself out, revealing all its horrors, and his countenance would become all scar. "He looked at me like the devil himself— making the hole in his face gape at me," the old squire had said to John Vavasor in describing the interview in which the grandson had tried to bully his grandfather into assenting to his own views about the mortgage. But in other respects George's face was not ugly, and might have been thought handsome by many women."

Ibid. "Chapter 4, George Vavasor, the Wild Man." (p. 33) Kindle Edition.

Did anyone besides me find George's "cicatrice" [scar] a bit of an (unnecessary and dated) Gothic effect in describing his physiognomy?

I hadn't thought of the passages concerning the scar as an outdated Gothic contrivance. I suppose I internalized the bit about the scar as an emphasis to his impulsive and risk-taking nature. That entire aspect of his character seems to add an element of foreboding. Giving him a scar adds a darker, Gothic flair - yes. But it seems to symbolize something essential in the man.

Trudy wrote: "But it seems to symbolize something essential in the man...."

I agree, Trudy. But my 21st century sensibilities reacted to the possible unthinking linking of physical disfigurement with moral question-ability.

Lily wrote: "Trudy wrote: "But it seems to symbolize something essential in the man...."

I agree, Trudy. But my 21st century sensibilities reacted to the possible unthinking linking of physical disfigurement ..."
Right. That seems trite. Maybe he should wear black, too.... ;)

lol -- or red.

To me his scar, makes him a less than perfect male specimen. It points to the fact too, I think, that women or possibly men can love and be attracted to someone who is not physically perfect. Many "love" stories of today and of course the Hollywood versions have the physical always trumping the character of the individuals.

Trudy wrote: "I, too, am curious about the author. It's remarkable that a man of that era can seem so deftly able to mine the inner thoughts of a woman. I really enjoy books that delve deeply into the main chara..."

Trollope is a fascinating character. He held a full time government job with the post office, I believe as an inspector of some sort; he wrote a lot of his work on trains traveling to and from his jobs. He was a also apparently a passionate fox hunter; he has very detailed hunt scenes in several of his novels. I don't know a good biography of him. He did write an autobiography, but it's mostly a diary of his writing; the first chapters are "My Education," "My Mother," and "The General Post Office," but then he gets into his writing -- chapter 4 is titled "Ireland -- My First Two Novels, 1841-1848" and Chapter 5 is "My First Success 1849-1855." He was meticulous about recording his writing and what he got paid for it. There is some other discussion of writing generally: Chapter 12 is titled "On Novels and the Art of Writing Them" and Chapter 13 is "On English Novelists of the Present Day."

He talks about "Can You Forgive Her" in Chapter 10. Among other things he says:

"In August 1863 the first number of Can You Forgive Her was published as a separate serial, and was continued through 1864....I quie admit that I crowded my wares into the market too quickly, because the reading world could not want sucha quantity of matter from the hands of one author in so short a space of time [He had brought out Orley Farm; Brown, Jones, and Robinson; and the Small House at Allington out in 1862 and 1863)

"I have composed better stories--that is, have created better plots--than those of The Small House at Allington and Can You Forgive Her."

He expresses fondness for CYFH, which is based on a lay he had written but which had been rejected. The characters "have been as real to me as free trade was to Mr. Cobden or the domination of a party by Mr. Disraeli" He goes on to discuss the novel, but the discussion includes spoilers, and I've copied enough in for now anyhow.

If you want to read more, you can do so from Gutenberg, which you can read online (select HTML) or download to your ebook reader for free:
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5978

Lily wrote: "I really "loved" some of the things he said about/for men. "

If you're willing, I'd love for you to be specific about some of the things you're thinking of.

Teresa wrote: "I believe Kate is what you call a "frenemy"."

Ha! But not inaccurate. She certainly wants to drag Alice away from John Grey and into her brother's arms.

I'm not sure whether she really thinks Alice would be happier with George, or whether she only thinks that George would be better off with Alice than with some other woman. (And that it would be better to get him married, after which he might be a bit less wild.)

Lily wrote: I couldn't quite decide if John Grey was pleading for himself to replace George Vavasor or not in this clever little tongue-in-cheek piece with its perhaps bit (or a lot?) of political incorrectness ("Paynim") by today's standards.

I didn't get that impression at the time I read it. But it's an interesting possibility.

Teresa wrote: "I enjoyed John Grey's letter to Alice. I don't need a man who is such a romance novel man, but can't find an umbrella in the rain! It's what is really needed. You can't spend your life in high d..."

Grey would, I think, be an ideal husband after three years of marriage, when the romance/infatuation phase is past and you want a spouse who is steady and reliable and comes home on time at night and doesn't waste time in the club or pub.

But for the first three years, when kitchy-kitchy-koo and sweet nothings are still desirable, not so much.

Everyman wrote: "...But for the first three years, when kitchy-kitchy-koo and sweet nothings are still desirable, not so much...."

I related more to Alice's concern about a solely country life, rather than one that included more cosmopolitan, worldly, and political interests.

Everyman wrote: "Lily wrote: "I really "loved" some of the things he said about/for men. "

If you're willing, I'd love for you to be specific about some of the things you're thinking of."

Eman -- I certainly will, when we reach them. Hopefully, one passage that particularly struck me will be well marked.

(Even here, I enjoyed John Grey's hints about what would be graceful and appreciated attributes of a traveling companion.)

Glad to see you here in this discussion. (I am enjoying the Western Classics discussion on Socrates -- including your comments in particular -- but I'm not sure I can engage constructively in that melee.) Thx for the tidbits about Trollope's life. I'll check out the link you provided. (Chapter X starts on p69 of the online version.)

Lily wrote: " (I am enjoying the Western Classics discussion on Socrates -- including your comments in particular -- but I'm not sure I can engage constructively in that melee.) "

Your past record shows clearly that you can, and can do so very successfully.

(I apologize for interrupting the CYFH thread with this off topic comment, but had to make it here since you aren't accepting private messages.)

Everyman wrote: "Your past record shows clearly that you can, and can do so very successfully. "

Thx. Mostly, perhaps the years have taught me to better pick the "battles" in which to engage! LOL. A bit of humility sometimes helps, too. I like best to bring out the clearest ideas of others. (Okay, to challenge and spread the thinking a bit wider, too -- sometimes. But vibrant discussions usually do that anyway.)

My apologies, too, for the off-topic discussion here. I didn't realize I was accepting private messages only from friends (and those who reply to my messages). I've opened up my profile -- I can always close it again if need be.

Chapter 5. The Balcony at Basle

"...They had tacitly agreed to spoil him with comforts; and girls are always happier in spoiling some man than in being spoiled by men. And he had taken it all well, doing his despotism pleasantly, exacting much, but exacting nothing that was disagreeable. And he had been amusing always, as Alice thought without any effort. But men and women, when they show themselves at their best, seldom do so without an effort. If the object be near the heart the effort will be pleasant to him who makes it, and if it be made well, it will be hidden; but, not the less, will the effort be there. George Vavasor had on the present occasion done his very best to please his cousin."

Ibid. "Chapter 5. The Balcony at Basle."(p. 37).

I noted the turnaround on the women being attended to by George Vavasor from what John Grey had suggested, perhaps even offered. But, I also noted that Trollope made a point to state that George, too, made an effort to be companionable and worthy of the spoiling he received. George is characterized here, as in some other passages, such as when an early business partner, of being capable of being capable.

Everyman wrote: "Teresa wrote: "I believe Kate is what you call a "frenemy"."

Ha! But not inaccurate. She certainly wants to drag Alice away from John Grey and into her brother's arms.

I'm not sure whether sh..."

You could read a little homosexual need in Kate. She wants Alice around for herself as much as anything else.

Everyman wrote: "Teresa wrote: "I enjoyed John Grey's letter to Alice. I don't need a man who is such a romance novel man, but can't find an umbrella in the rain! It's what is really needed. You can't spend your..."

I'm reading the character of John Grey as a good husband material through the veil of my bad first marriage! I'm done with the "exciting" husband material.

Lily wrote: "Chapter 5. The Balcony at Basle

"...They had tacitly agreed to spoil him with comforts; and girls are always happier in spoiling some man than in being spoiled by men. And he had taken it all well..."

George, in my view, is a master manipulator and totally self-centered.

The latter, perhaps, being natural for a young man of some social status (if not wealth) in the very patriarchal society of his day.