All About Books discussion

Jean, yes I have.

It sounds as if the school was very cheap and not good, but not the hell-hole Dickens described. But fiction is fiction, isn't it?

We know, don't we, that Dickens' attitudes stemmed from his hard early life, and his work is full of exaggeratedly bad characters, especially of authority figures.

Given his own hypocritical behaviour towards his wife, family, friends, colleagues, publishers, etc, and his own statement that his bad characters reflected the 'bad' in himself, I would not take his caricature-ish depictions as other than caricatures.

He was a humbug, as Scrooge might have said!

I was going by the testimony of the children. It sounded as if the conditions were incredibly neglectful, even allowing for the time. This is copied verbatim from William's evidence to the court in 1823. He was 11 years old.

"When any of them got a hole in the jacket or trousers, they went without till they were mended. The boys washed in a long trough, like what horses drink out of: the biggest boys used to take advantage of the little boys, and get the dry part of the towel. There were two towels a day for the whole school. We had no supper; nothing after tea. We had dry bread, brown, and a drop of water and a drop of milk warmed. The flock of the bed was straw; one sheet and one quilt; four or five boys slept in a bed not very large.

My brother and three more slept in my bed; about thirty beds in the room, and a great tub in the middle, full of ----. There were not five boys in every bed. The tub used to be flowing all over the room. Every other morning we used to flea the beds. The usher used to cut the quills, and give us them to catch the fleas; and if you did not fill the quill, you caught a good beating. The pot-skimmings were called broth, and we used to have it for tea on Sunday; one of the ushers offered a penny a piece for every maggot, and there was a pot-full gathered: he never gave it them. No soap, except on Saturday, and then the wenches used to wash us.

I was there nine months, and there was nothing the matter with me. One morning I could not write my copy, from the weakness of my eyes: I felt nothing the night before. Mr. Shaw said he would beat me if I did not write my copy. Next morning he sent me into the wash-house. There were other boys there; some quite blind. Mr. Shaw would not have us in his room. I was there a month. There were 18 boys at one time affected; some who were totally blind were sent into a room; I think two besides myself. In about a month I was removed to a private room, where there were nine totally blind. A doctor was sent for. Mr. Benning is his name. I was in the room two months; the doctor discharged me, saying, I had lost one eye, and should preserve the other. I had lost one eye, but I could not see with the other. I was taken back to the washhouse, and never had the doctor again; I was taken home in the month of March.

I was only to learn to read and write. there were boys learning Latin, and two or three French. There were seven ushers. One of the name of Evans was there, for the purpose of instruction. When any of the boys had any thing amiss, Evans assisted them. He had bad eyes. His father used to send him down bottles of stuff from London. Evans used to blow dust in the eyes of the boys who were ill. Mr Benning lives in Barnard Castle. He used to look over the boys' eyes, and turn them away again. He never did any thing else. The boys had no physic nor eye-water. He just came to look at them."

That sounds pretty much like Dotheboys Hall to me!

Yes, you may be right, but the sheer evil of the four Squeers is beyond any evidence?

So far I find them comic characters - grotesques to add light relief to something we would otherwise find too distressing to read.

I just love the names! Dotheboys Hall the vile school where the boys were well and truly "done to" - it became so infamous that "Bowes Academy", which we've been talking about was eventually (by 1903) known as "Dotheboys Hall"!

And Wackford Squeers, the headmaster, overkeen on whacking his pupils. Miss Knag - the spiteful forewoman. No need to wonder what her manner was like!

Then just today I read about Lord Frederick Verisoft - soft of brain - "weak and silly", his friend the Honourable Mr Snobb, and Sir Mulberry Hawk - "the most knowing card in the pack" - who treats everyone, including his "friends", as his prey.

So many fantastically memorable names!

With the wonderful Cheerybles to come!

Oooo I was hoping they were in this book John :) Did you know they were a couple in real life too? When I get up to that bit I'll find chapter and verse (unless someone else has.)

Jean,

Thanks. I have looked them up - the Grants of Ramsbottom. Very interesting. I came across a reference to Goodreads - a group called The Pickwick Club. A thread called Nicholas Nickleby, with a sub-thread Nickleby, Chapters 34-39, talks of this and has some useful links. From Sept last year. Seems a very intelligent group, now reading Chuzzlewit from May-Sept.

It is certainly an exceptionally intelligent group, John! I make comments there almost daily, so I'm surprised you didn't come across me... ;)

Why don't you join? :) They're a good crowd and have very few English members, which is surprising, considering we only discuss Dickens there.

Jean, I should have guessed you would be be a leading light! I have just joined!

Wonderful! Tracey's in there too :)

I've just discovered another character who was based on a real person. Miss La Crevy was based on Rosa Emma Drummond, who painted a miniature engraved portrait of Dickens on ivory. He had commissioned this so that he could give it to his fiancee, Catherine Hogarth as an engagement present. Like Miss Drummond, Miss La Creevy, was a good-natured, middle-aged miniature painter, described by Dickens as a "mincing young lady of fifty".

I'm also enjoying all the minor characters such as Mr Crowl, who "utters a low querulous growl", Mrs Wititterly who seems to witter a lot and has "an air of sweet insipidity" and the best of the lot, Sir Tumley Snuffim, who is perhaps not such a good doctor if his patients "snuff it"!

It's such a shame that I know I'm going to forget this wealth of cameos as soon as I finish the book.

I just love Miss La Crevy!

I know Wikipedia is not your favourite thing, but as I finished Pickwick, OliverT, NIcholasN, I saved the Wikipedia pages, which give a really good cast list with a brief description as well. I intend to re-read them periodically.

That's a good idea! Wiki has its uses - as long as we don't take it as gospel. :)

Agreed!

Hoping lurking on here will give me some motivation to write my dissertation. Although I do have to say, my opinion on him has completely changed since I started this.

Ooo do say how, Alannah :) And let me know if you want to talk about Dickens in any way...

If someone tried to tell me that Dickens was a great social critic of the time, I wouldn't believe them. But then again, before I started this dissertation, I only really studied Great Expectations and Hard Times. Before taking the time to really study the female characters in these books, you would say that on the surface they are weak, beaten down by patriarchy, etc.
I haven't got a definite conclusion but I think I will use this and say how Dickens was trying to make a point about the treatment of women during the Victorian period.

Alannah,

I don't think that's right. If you Google 'Dickens and the Ideal Woman', you will get lots of pertinent articles and ideas.

John wrote: "Alannah,

I don't think that's right. If you Google 'Dickens and the Ideal Woman', you will get lots of pertinent articles and ideas."

I'm not saying I was right, I just mean that was my opinion before I started.

Alannah - You might like to look into his real-life attempts too then, such as "Urania Cottage" the home he established (with Angela Burdett-Coutts) for former prostitutes and "fallen women". Google it if you aren't aware of that.

I think one of the most sympathetic, morally aware and troubled female characters he ever wrote is actually a prostitute, Nancy, in Oliver Twist.

I think Great Expectations has some quite good examples of women who are not the passive heroines we might expect. Miss Havisham is very manipulative in her lust for vengeance, even to the point of destroying the life of a little girl, Estella to fulfil her plans. Although she has been utterly hurt as a bride, and everybody feels pity for her in that respect, it seems her pride rather than her feelings have been hurt, because she has set out on a quest of revenge against all men in general. And of course Estella in turn manipulates Pip.

I remember suggesting you reading Little Dorrit, so presumably you have her example as an "ideal" Dickensian female. But thinking of other female characters in this book, how about the unpleasant and malevolent mother of Arthur, Mrs. Clennam? And also Tattycoram - Pet Meagles's adopted maid. She was perhaps more bratty, but had evil inclinations as well. Miggs is downright spiteful and conniving.

David Copperfield has a wealth of varied female characters, ranging from his aunt Betsy who is good, right through to Jane Murdstone who is evil. Rosa Dartle is also somewhat vicious - "about thirty years of age, and... wished to be married. She was a little dilapidated - like a house - with having been so long to let; yet had, as I have said, an appearance of good looks. Her thinness seemed to be the effect of some wasting fire within her, which found a vent in her gaunt eyes." Love it! And of course there's David's silly, emptyheaded first wife, Dora.

In Martin Chuzzlewit I'm never sure whether the Pecksniff sisters Cherry and Merry are also just cute and silly - perhaps misguided - or more designing.

At the moment I'm reading Nicholas Nickleby, and Mrs Squeers, the headmaster's wife, is an extremely nasty piece of work, as is her daughter, Fanny. She is spiteful, vain and snobbish, even looking down on her only friend Miss Price, because she is only a miller's daughter. This is how bright she is, "My pa requests me to write to you. The doctors considering it doubtful whether he will ever recuvver the use of his legs which prevents his holding a pen." LOL! Kate, Nicholas's sister is on the contrary very astute (much more so than Nicholas) - possibly one of the most independent and high-spirited female characters in Dickens.

Other positive strong females in Barnaby Rudge are Dolly Varden (a coquette, but very perceptive) and Emma Haredale (far more refined, but also intelligent and openly defiant when she feels she is being manipulated.)

Then there's Madame de Farge in A Tale of Two Cities, who is possibly the most evil character of them all.

These are a few strong female characters I can think of off the top of my head - there are lots more!!! But I think there are examples of different ways of being "strong". Perhaps as Victorian society limited women's range of actions in all sorts of ways, it also limited their freedom to commit gigantic acts of evil - a freedom that man could enjoy better at that time. Something to think about perhaps, although Madame de Farge was pretty much responsible for the entire uprising in the novel, which tends to work against that theory...

Just a few ideas to throw in the mix. Let me know if I can help at all. And I'd love to read it eventually Alannah :)

After that long screed I refreshed my page to see that you (John and Alannah) have already had a little conversation... :D

Jean wrote: "Alannah - You might like to look into his real-life attempts too then, such as "Urania Cottage" the home he established (with Angela Burdett-Coutts) for former prostitutes and "fallen women". Googl..."

I have a good bit on Urania Cottage for the introduction, Little Dorrit and Dombey and Son chapters. I would have done a wide range of his novels but my supervisor advised against it.

Oh good. I trust this particular supervisor is not the one you said didn't know anything about Dickens...

How are you getting on Tracey? I'm up to chapter 26 now :)

Anyone up to or past the theatre chapters yet? Well it seems the Infant Phenomenon (or "Infernal Phenomenon" as the leading man Mr Folair termed her LOL!) was also based on a real person! Is there anyone in this novel who wasn't...

"Dickens modelled Vincent Crummles and his daughter Miss Ninetta Crummles on the actor-manager T.D. Davenport and his daughter Jean. "Infant phenomena" were a regular feature of many theatrical shows during the early decades of the nineteenth century. Davenport and his daughter appeared on the Portsmouth stage in March 1837, and playbills announced that the nine-year-old prodigy would play a variety of parts, including Shylock, Little Pickle and Hector Earsplitter, sing songs ranging from "Since Now I'm Doom'd" to "I'm a Brisk and Sprightly Lad Just Come Home from Sea" and dance both sailor's hornpipes and Highland flings."

Ha ha Jean, I would certainly pay to see the Infant Phenomenon playing a simpering, dancing Shylock! I love the theatrical people in NN, they are wonderful. And the Crummles marriage is a very happy one, a rare thing in Dickens's books.

I know Dickens had an unhappy marriage himself, but what do you know about his relationship with his children?

Leslie, I find Mrs Nickleby rather malicious and self centred, as well as stupid. She's certainly not very loyal to her own family, despite their being devoted to her. I think the recurring theme of the parent-child relationship is very interesting in NN.

Hello Jean been unable to read for a week now but will try and crack on today even a little is better than none at all.

Aw Tracey there's no rush! I just missed your comments. The main thing is to enjoy the read! :)

Susan - Do you know I had not thought of Mrs Nickleby in that way! She reminds me more of Mrs Bennett in "Pride and Prejudice" - silly and confused - a comic character. She changes her opinion all the time, and keeps saying the opposite of what happened. But the fact that she takes no responsibility for the misfortune of her husband, even though she encouraged him to speculate, does make me wonder if you have a point! Thanks for the reinterpretation!

Did you know that Dickens's own mother, Elizabeth Dickens, was the model for Mrs. Nickleby? Luckily for Charles she didn't recognise herself in the character. In fact she asked someone if they "really believed there ever was such a woman"!

I totally agree about the preoccupation with the parent-child relationship. Perhaps he himself was slightly more conscious that he should give time and attention to this (as he never seemed to with his marriage) or maybe it's a consequence of his own troubled youth.

Dickens's children - Well there's Mamie - she springs to mind first! She was his second child, and called after his beloved Mary Hogarth. She never married and stayed with her father until his death. She helped to edit Dickens's letters and published two books about him, Charles Dickens, By His Eldest Daughter (1885) and My Father as I Recall Him (1896).

Then there's Charley - Dickens's first child, who was the only child who lived with his mother after Dickens's separation with Catherine in 1858. He married the daughter of Dickens' former publisher, one of the many people with whom Dickens had a falling out. Then after a failed business venture, Dickens hired Charley as sub-editor of "All the Year Round", so maybe there was a reconciliation.

The others were a bit vague in my mind - he had 8 survivng children, and they mostly lived with him after he threw Catherine out, except for Charley. So I've found a bit more out for you, Susan :) Here - very briefly - they are, in order of birth,

Katie - sided with her mother, and married the brother of Dickens's friend, Wilkie Collins. Dickens always felt she married to get out of the home after the separation.

Walter - became a lieutenant in the 42nd Highlanders in India, where he got into debt. He died and his debts were sent home to his father.

Francis - A month after Walter died, Francis discovered the fact as he had joined the Bengal Mounted Police. He returned to England in 1871, the year after Dickens's death. But he squandered his inheritance and emigrated to Canada.

Alfred - also emigrated - to Australia, where he remained for 45 years. Later he lectured on his father's life and works in England and America, dying in New York on a lecture tour. Apparently he had no money worries!

Sydney - joined the Navy, which pleased his father very much. But *sigh*... he got into debt, asking his father for financial aid which Dickens refused. Sydney died at sea.

Henry - was called after Henry Fielding. (All Dickens's children are called after writers or actors in part of their names, such as "Alfred D'Orsay Tennyson Dickens".) Henry was apparently the most successful of Dickens children. He became a lawyer and judge, and was eventually knighted in 1922. He also performed readings of Dickens's works and published books on his father's life.

Dora - was his 9th child, who did not survive. She was born during the writing of David Copperfield and called after the main character's first wife. But the baby died at eight months old.

There are definitely recurring themes here, aren't there? And what amazes me also is how many of his children did in fact survive, in an age when infant mortality was so high.

Clare Tomalin's recent and brilliant biography, which spills the beans on Dickens' disgraceful treatment of his wife, shows that Dickens bemoaned the appearance of each child after the first few, almost blamed his wife for them, as if they were nothing to do with him. He especially hated the coming of more boys, as he seemed to want girls and for them never to grow up into independent women. He tried to dictate the lives of his sons, denying one his wish to become a soldier, then decrying his lack of success in the career he pushed him into. Others he was glad to get rid of anywhere abroad. A real hypocrite when you think of his moralizing attitudes in letters and in his output.

Jean - do you know whether Davenport falsified the age of his daughter, as Crummle does (by 6 years)?

There's a thought, John. No, not offhand! Maybe you could search? It must have been a great temptation in that business, I would think, wouldn't you? Like child actors playing younger and younger parts as they got older and (the girls) being "strapped into" their costumes.

Claire Tomalin's biography is on my shelf to read! And her novel about Nelly is on my Kindle - there's so little time! I am not really surprised by what you say, although I had hoped his relationship with his children was better than that with his wife. I can't quite remember what Peter Ackroyd said.

Do you think Tomalin might have exaggerated for effect? Maybe for a clear picture one needs to also read the accounts by his children. But yes, clearly he didn't seem to know himself very well (that's the kindest way I can think of putting it!)

Jean,

Can't find anything more about Davenport and daughter than the basic facts when she was an eight-year-old.

Looking at interviews with and articles about Clare Tomalin, she seems not to have any particular axe to grind, and her work on Woolstencraft, Pepys, etc seems to be regarded as well-judged. So, maybe just the truth - certainly she backs her opinions up by use of written evidence. Most of which was hidden or ignored until recently.

One of the quotes she uses, by Dickens himself, suggests he knows his bad side, and represents it in some of his 'bad' characters. With that self-knowledge, the charge of hypocrisy stands, I think. Engaging in the same activity for which one criticises others.

Yes, sadly I don't really doubt that charge, John. I just thought he cared more for his children. I agree that Tomalin is one of our best literary biographers. They are so well researched but readable. Her book Thomas Hardy was a real eye-opener too!

I suppose I wondered about selectively choosing her evidence, or heightening some of it, because of her also writing a novel Invisible Woman about Nelly. But presumably she is concerned about her academic integrity, so probably has been quite scrupulous.

As well as wondering about Dickens's children's accounts, I'm wondering about reading his letters. I've found parts of those have cast a light on certain events. But perhaps they're not to be trusted where his children are concerned. Perhaps he's an "unreliable narrator" there! LOL

Are you following any of the threads in the other group John? I'm contributing to each thread as I read it, as I did with Oliver Twist, as well as the "Lounge" and general thread - there's an intro thread you could announce yourself in too, and an alphabetical character game I started up...

Jean - thank you, I will. As it happens, I've just started The Old Curiosity Shop, as I really want to read them all in order, and the first chapter is intriguing. And in the first person. This new obsession is all your fault!

Also by the way, I'm just going to look back at all the 'Phiz' illustrations to NIcholasN, which I rather rushed past in reading the book. The one of Mrs Squeers doling the brimstone and treacle out to the boys makes one want to vomit, just looking at it!

Doesn't it just?! Someone kindly reproduced all those in the appropriate thread, so it's nice to see them big on my computer screen, rather than small in the book or my ereader. But have you seen this? They are worth a look too :)

LOL! I should be getting to The Old Curiosity Shop in July. I'm certainly not rushing Nicholas Nickleby, as I suspect I'll prefer it to that - except for old Quilp! :) Oh I had forgotten it was in the first person!

Just don't forget the rice pudding...

Jean wrote: "Oh good. I trust this particular supervisor is not the one you said didn't know anything about Dickens..."

Unfortunately, nothing happened there but I'm not the only one who's struggling with him. But it was my Victorian tutor who recommended it since she knows my capability. I use a book each chapter then analyse how the main female characters are portrayed through their speech, and mainly how other characters, males in particular, respond to them.

That sounds a fair way to proceed, Alannah. I'm pleased you have a different tutor for this, and hope something is done about the other one soon. I also hope you enjoy it! Good luck and "pop in" on this thread with comments/questions any time :)

Susan wrote: "Leslie, I find Mrs Nickleby rather malicious and self centred, as well as stupid. She's certainly not very loyal to her own family, despite their being devoted to her. I think the recurring theme o..."

Agreed!

Jean, I thought the whole bit about the actors was fascinating. I hadn't realized that the Infant Phenomenon was based on a specific person, although I had realized that "infant phenomena" were all the rage (here in the US as well).

Jean - just downloaded the '866'. Very interesting so far. No rice puddings lately. Mainly salads - they just shrivel if forgotten!

Leslie - any theories about why she is "voiceless"? I can understand why she might be on stage, but in the novel? Anyone?

You know I think these theatrical scenes with the Crummles' troupe of actors are more similar to the humour of The Pickwick Papers than anything we've had so far. So if you enjoyed that, you'll love this!...*nudge nudge* Tracey!

LOL John!

I didn't particularly notice her being voiceless, but my guess is that her parents discouraged her in order to help the illusion of her youth (?).

That's a good thought, Leslie. I had assumed that Dickens must be making a particular point, as she does not say one word in the text, whereas all the rest of the company seem to be chatterboxes. But perhaps after all it's not symbolic, and merely part of her persona.

I have just noticed that the introduction to one of my copies of Nicholas Nickleby is by Dame Sybil Thorndike! Now that I must read :)

Leslie wrote: "I didn't particularly notice her being voiceless, but my guess is that her parents discouraged her in order to help the illusion of her youth (?)."

Probably right, the whole idea of children being seen and not heard is something I remember a lot from studying the Victorian age in primary school.

I'm just looking for hidden meanings then...

When I was teaching, Alannah, there were a whole load of teachers who thought that was no bad thing and we ought to bring it back! LOL! I'm always amazed by photos from my mother's generation, of huge classes of children all sitting at desks facing the front - OK, some of us remember this well - but with their arms folded behind their backs? Even if I got very cross, the worst I can remember doing was making them all instantly put their hands in the air for a bit. (And I was always amused by the ones who covertly tried to just put one hand up whilst they finished off the bit of writing they had got so engrossed in!) But the idea of them sitting like that all the time is just awful. :(

Jean - my Oxford NIcholas Nickleby has the Thorndyke intro, and I've just read that, as well as looking at all the illustrations. The intro really is a tonic, and made me appreciate the book even more in retrospect than I had when just finishing it. She seems to take the most life-affirming messages from it.

Thanks John! I'm looking forward to that now :)

I'm still smiling about the amorous neighbour of Mrs Nickleby with his assorted vegetable-throwing!

So who would you cast Dame Sybil Thorndike as, in this story?

Not really very good at these party game questions, but Vincent Crummles, maybe. But none of the characters really have the analytical self-awareness that. The hero, maybe, when he grows up?

I meant to say: ... Self-awareness that Thorndyke shows.

Maybe she wouldn't really be right for this novel then.

No, too normal!