All About Books discussion

Jean, I hope you don't mind me posting this here but I found this article whilst browsing the guardian books website

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014...

Thought it might be interesting to followers of the Dickens challenge. I think it highlights the general feel I have of Dickens from the Tomalin biography; he devoted a lot of time to people in poverty and forgot his own family

Heather - yes, that sums him up nicely. The Tomalin book is quite an eye-opener, isn't it?

John wrote: "Heather - yes, that sums him up nicely. The Tomalin book is quite an eye-opener, isn't it?"

Yes, I really enjoyed it. I didn't know a huge amount about Dickens before I read it but I found it fascinating. It helps to understand some of his novels more as well

Thanks John!! That's great :) I think Alannah would be interested in that too.

I'm not sure I saw Heather's post which initiated your comments. But I still have this bio on my bookshelf to read, Heather! Maybe I should push it up my list and then we can talk about it here.

Number 404, Jean.

Ooops - Got very confused there - sorry, both! Blame my muzzy head today. I should have thanked you, Heather, shouldn't I? :D

That's fine, I hadn't even noticed!

No spoilers, I promise! But even if you have not yet come across scenes with the Cheeryble brothers, you might like to know that these were based on... wait for it... real life characters too!

They are based on two benefactors who were brothers, Daniel and William Grant. They came from Scotland, but settled in Ramsbottom in Greater Manchester (although during Dickens's time, this will have been thought of as part of the county of Lancashire.) Some of the fine houses they built are still there. For instance, St Andrew's Church from 1832 is also known as Grant's Church. It was originally consecrated as a Scottish Presbyterian Chapel, with a donation of £5,000 by William Grant. They regularly gave money to promising new enterprises and for education, supporting schools, libraries and the charitable institutions, and when homes and farmlands on Speyside were swept away by floods in 1829, gave £100 to swell "The Flood Fund".

Dickens was keen to make sure everyone knew of these remarkable pair. This is from his preface,

"It may be right to say that there are 2 characters in this book which are drawn from life. Those who take an interest in this tale will be glad to learn that the Brothers Cheeryble do live; that their liberal charity, their singleness of heart, noble nature and unbounded benevolence are no creatures of the author’s brain, but are prompting every day some munificent and generous deed in that town of which they are the pride and honour." May, 1848.

I finished reading Nicholas Nickleby a few days ago. Here's my review , which can be quite safely read even if you haven't finished (or even started!) it yet. There are no spoilers.

Jean wrote: "I finished reading Nicholas Nickleby a few days ago. Here's my review , which can be quite safely read even if you haven't finished (or even started!) it yet. There are no spoilers."

Which book is next Jean?

I'm still moving slowly along with this. I enjoy Dickens but I have to take my time.

I've just reached the part where I've met the Cheeryble brothers; what a delightful name! I really enjoyed the section with the actors in Portsmouth but my favourite characters so far still have to be the Mantalini's- the dialogue between them has made me laugh every time.

I've just seen Jean's comment about the Cheeryble brother's being based on real life and now I like them even more!

I'm so pleased you're enjoying those characters Heather, and I agree about the humour! I wonder whether you've read the bit about an amorous proposal involving vegetables. That makes me giggle just thinking about it...

Leslie - The next novel is The Old Curiosity Shop, although please see the post below.

John - if you read this you'll be amused to hear that my collection of the Heron Centennial Edition of the complete works of the Inimitable, (I mentioned regretting having got rid of some of these) is now nearing completion again. I found some of the missing volumes in various antiquarian bookshops when on holiday. The ones now missing are just 2 - both volumes of Miscellaneous Papers Volume II - which I think are those you have! LOL

N.B.

I have now adjusted my challenge, and put the details in comment number 1 for convenience. In July I shall be reading Charles Dickens and the Great Theatre of the World by Simon Callow

Jean - I assume you mean Miscellaneous Papers I, and Miscellaneous Papers II.

The first has sections entitled: Miscellaneous Papers; Miscellanies from 'The Examiner' 1838-1849; Miscellanies from 'Household Words' 1850-1859.

The second has sections entitled: Miscellanies from 'Household Words' 1859-1859; Miscellanies from'All The Year around' 1859-1869; Plays; Poems.

Tell you what. I haven't read them yet, but I will do by the end of November.

They are pristine. If you haven't found them by then, I'll send them to you at Xmas.

By the way, I've finished The Old Curiosity Shop (thoroughly enjoyed it, including the character of Little Nell!), and will join into chats about it here at the appropriate time.

Now halfway through Barnaby Rudge (or have reached the 5year gap, rather). Again, really intriguing and more a plotted novel than the earlier picaresque method. Having a break while reading a Robertson Davies trilogy with others, plus a crime novel, and some football books, too!

While you were in Dorset, my wife and I had 10 days in Nice, and reading the Kindle sitting along the Promenade des Anglais by the sea was enchanting!

Hi John,

So welcome back to you too! Your hol sounds idyllic and I guess you both had perfect weather as well :)

Wow - you really are forging through the novels now! I wonder if you have commented on Barnaby Rudge in any of the threads in "The Pickwick Club". I know it's not a current read there now, but now and then I'll add to a "dead thread" and it's usually taken up by someone.

I seem to remember the conversation got quite lively there at times. At one point some readers were discussing who the main character really was, as the title character doesn't appear for a large part of the middle section. I commented that I considered the main character to be Grip, the raven. I'd meant it tongue-in-cheek, so was surprised to be taken seriously...

LOL - thanks for the offer of the books! Just in case you were serious, don't worry as there are a couple of copies available on Amazon - but just not as reasonably priced as they are in the second-hand bookshops. I got my latest finds for £2 each! Can't complain at that :) Yes, Idid mean those two volumes. The "add book" feature here would only let me link to Miscellaneous Papers Volume II for some strange reason.

I have now encountered the cucumber! It was a funny part of the book.

I'm still plodding along, luckily I've already read (and loved) The Old Curiosity Shop so I can have time to catch up before you start Barnaby Rudge!

Certainly Heather, especially since I've now spaced them out a bit more! I was finding I'm thinking about each novel long after I've finished it, so this will suit me better, I think.

Funny how we all have such different approaches. You like to savour your books, and my er...some might call it obsession(!)... has led me to slow right down too. John's enthusiasm has meant he's on a "Dickens roll" and is shooting through gobbling up each one avidly! I know Leslie's done the same at one time too. I love the way Goodreads (and this group) has brought it home to me just how different - and equally valid - all our reading styles are :)

Are you still reading Nicholas Nickleby, Tracey, or have you put it aside for a while?

Jean wrote: "Certainly Heather, especially since I've now spaced them out a bit more! I was finding I'm thinking about each novel long after I've finished it, so this will suit me better, I think.

Funny how we..."

It's not so much savouring as just being really slow and not having enough time! I do find I have to concentrate on Dickens and I can't pick Nicholas Nickleby up when I'm tired. I always need variety in my reading so I couldn't finish one book and then start another by the same author unless it was continuing a series like a fantasy novel.

It is nice how everybody has different reading styles.

We haven't heard from Tracey for a while. I know she can get busy at times so hopefully she'll come back to the group soon.

Jean - yes, weather fine in Nice, but I bet three weeks in Dorset had plenty of sunshine too. And three weeks - lovely.

I have been chatting in The Pickwick Club, but mainly re football and how nice it is to beat Australia at sport (agreeing with Yorkshire-born lady exiled in Australia!).

I will say something about Barnaby Rudge later, when I've read a lot after the 5year gap: what a curious structure again, although I seem to remember Thomas Hardy has long gaps once or twice.

Gobbling Dickens up! I do like to read with consideration, but Dickens is so beguiling. If one wants to get to Edwin Drood, and read the journalism too, then at 64 it seems best to be getting a move on!

Miscellaneous Papers: as you know, I've been reducing my stock of books (from maybe 5k to 3.5k, mainly by replacing pre-1900 books with Kindle editions (mainly free, or a pittance for 'the collected works of .....'), and I've just kept a few favourites, including Dickens editions with illustrations. I didn't dispose of the Miscellaneous Papers volumes purely because I couldn't work out whether all of the contents were in the collected Dickens downloads (2) that I have. I suspect not. But your message made me think it'd be a good idea to read them this year as otherwise they would just get left to the end. I think they cost me £1 each. And they have no pictures. Not a one. So the offer stands, as much as an incentive for me as anything. I'm going to read 'Joseph Grimaldi', and The Agricultural Interest tonight!

Heather - Oh I know that problem full well - the number of books I've carried to and fro uselessly on the tube in my time, determined each day to read them, but sadly too tired to concentrate...

Yes, I see Tracey is posting in Facebook, so all's well :)

John - The weather in Abbotsbury was perfect! That's why our planned two weeks got extended (after a few phone calls) to three! Even then we only had a bit of rain in the final two days - lovely, and so very unusual :)

Ah - I think you mean Kate :) I've chatted to her too, although not about the beautiful game.

I hope you didn't think I meant you rushed through Dickens regardless - that's not the case at all! We've had some great discussions, so I know you read "with consideration". Somehow you manage to do this and read lots of other stuff too, which takes me a bit longer.

I too am replacing on Kindle. It's tempting to have the classics that way, because of the cost, which as you say is often nominal (if not actually free). But I find I do like to have a hard copy sometimes, as I get so few words at a time on Kindle with my enlarged font. This is fine for most contemporary novels, but a Dickens sentence can go over three pages (screens) sometimes and I tend to lose track! So it's a bit hit and miss, what I actually replace, especially when you add in the ones I want to keep for themselves, such as the Heron Dickens series, or those classics with illustrations by Arthur Rackham. So thank you very much for your offer. It's unlikely I'll obtain copies by Christmas!

Chris is far better at replacing his books than I am. We took a huge recycling bag full of books to donate to an Oxfam bookshop - but returned after the holiday with it full of books bought in Antiquarian bookshops (mainly by me). Oh dear! I'll just have to keep trying :D There were a couple of very old editions of Dickens's novels in there. I excuse myself by the fact that they are very small - and I've only bought one novel as a sort of example from each published series.

And the Heron Centennial Editions I bought were:
A Child's History of England
American Notes and Pictures From Italy
Our Mutual Friend (2 vols)
Reprinted Pieces
The Uncommercial Traveller
Sketches by Boz (2 vols)

The series runs to 36 volumes altogether, and I have 34 of them. I hadn't realised that the Miscellaneous papers weren't illustrated though! Maybe some have illustrations in Scenes and Characters from the Works of Charles Dickens Being Eight Hundred and Sixty-six Pictures Printed From the Original Wood Blocks which I have on Kindle - and I think you do too, so it might be worth a look.

Jean - I remember Abbotsbury swan sanctuary in June a few years ago: enchanting.

And you found eight 'herons' too. So, agreed about the final two.

No, no offence taken but I suppose I must have balked at the word 'gobbled'! Silly me.

I still love real books, too, and have a complete series compulsion. Mainly now for my particular favourites: P G Wodehouse; Michael Innes. These are complete. I still need about four Simenon/Maigrets (too dear via Amazon/Abe Books), and a few Ivy Compton-Burnett (which are uncommon and really, really expensive). And some current crime writers, whose books I started before Kindle days, which I have to keep buying in paperback - Donna Leon, Andrea Camilleri, for example.

Yes, will look at the 866 illustrations book tomorrow.

I'm going to ruin your comment details on the first page by continuing to talk about Nicholas Nickleby!

I've just read the part where Nicholas is introduced to the wrong lady which I found very amusing. I can certainly imagine how this would work very well on stage as a comedy. Parts are almost written as if they are to be portrayed as a farce. I particularly liked

"The young lady shrieked, the attendant wrung her hands, Nicholas gazed from one to the other in apparent stupefaction, and Newman hurried to and fro, thrusting his hands into all his pockets successively, and drawing out the linings of every one in the excess of his irresolution. It was but a moment, but the confusion crowded into that one moment no imagination can exaggerate."

Made me smile!

Random question but did anyone know Dickens's favourite colour?

Alannah - No - and I am intrigued! Do you?

Heather - Good-oh! Those details are the sort that can be altered easily enough :) I agree, elements of the book are farcical and very "broad". Since he dedicated it to his friend, the distinguished actor and theatre director William Macready, I wonder whether this was deliberately hyped up and exaggerated, or whether the dedication came as a result. Sort of chicken and egg situation.

John - I truly wish I had thought of the words "avidly devouring" at the time. That would have been much more appropriate. I never mean to cause offence in such a situation, but am aware my language is highly coloured sometimes for dramatic effect. Sometimes my sense of fun gets a bit much. I do apologise - sorry :(

We have season tickets to the swannery! My favourite "happy place"! We always try to go to see the cygnets hatching (so probably passed close by you and your wife that year) and also the floodlit subtropical gardens in the Autumnn. And I think we have the same attitude to keeping favourite "real books" (or "tree books" as Everyman has it) - except that they are different books :)

Jean,

Just had a few days 'off'' as we had one of our Aussie student nieces staying with us on her way to Cambridge for a month then Singapore for six months, both as part of her degree. Lucky thing.

Turned back to Barnaby Rudge, and read the first four chapters after the five year gap. It was like coming back to an old friend, whose qualities and eccentricities immediately enthrall one. The first of these chapters, the publican and his cronies inside during a storm, etc, was a comic/spooky masterpiece on its own, as well as driving the plot forward.

Anyway, not for discussion here, but really just to say again what a pleasure it has been to have been 'provoked' into this 'serial' read of CD.

Great, isn't it? You probably know that "The Maypole Inn" is just up the road from us. The highwaymen have changed a bit though! :)

Alannah - just Googled Dickens' favourite colour, and the answer is 'light orange', mentioned in a 1999 publication 'Charles Dickens Family History vol 1.' (edited by Norman Page). Mentioned by someone helping with his American tour, and trying to get paper of that colour for Dickens to use. But there was none in the USA! IT EXPLICITLY SAYS LIGHT ORANGE WAS HIS FAVOURITE COLOUR.

Jean - no, I hadn't realised. Epping Forest, isn't it? But, I have recorded the full third stage of the Tour de France (Cambridge to London), partly thinking I could see what Epping Forest was like, after you mentioned it before. I haven't watched it yet, though. Is it a forest, at least in part, or something sparser, like the New Forest? Was the Maypole a real pub, and is it still there?

John - yes, and yes. Epping Forest is a large expanse of ancient woodland, of which we have very little left, and we are very proud. Oddly, it is owned by the Corporation of London, however (for historical reasons) and not Essex, and this anomaly does lead to some problems. Mainly maniacs with chain-saws apparently lopping at will.

Well that is slightly overstated, but the current plan is to restore it to an earlier Victorian countryside vision, (this is what they say in their long-term plan) with open areas and pasture for cows. How this can be reconciled with woodland I do not know. Parts of it no longer look like a forest, as the word is commonly understood. Personally, we avoid the chainsaw chappies - they are just doing their job in chopping down the blue-ringed trees - but did once challenge a twit with a clipboard, asking him just why he was destroying all the new growth and preserving the dead rotting trunks. He replied that they were beautiful, like sculptures... Agreed but it's an odd idea to preserve those at the expense of some healthy trees. (And yes, I know they harbour insect-life, birds etc - keep some by all means.)

I can't help feeling that they have an idealistic vision, and that they have not taken expert advice on maintaining a forest without too much intervention. A few months ago they decimated an area near us. It looked like the photos you see of the rainforest when they have chopped it all down for palm oil. Now there is growth - but predictably of bracken, and little else. A poor replacement for those ancient oaks. There was no bracken to speak of before. Anyone familiar with the Lake District's problems could have told them that this is what would happen, yet it continues. We, as residents, have little say in the matter.

Apologies. I feel very strongly about this, as you can tell! The forest is about the only reason we're still here - we'll move eventually. And I'm now wondering if this sort of interference is what has afflicted the New Forest. They seem to be wanting to make Epping Forest no longer "dark and deep" but more like a leisure parkland.

You should be able to see some of it as the route did go along Epping New Road, I think. The forest is broken by a couple of main roads. They are beautiful to drive through, especially in the Autumn with all the deciduous trees :)

And yes, "The Maypole" is happily pretty much the same as it was.

Light orange? Interesting. Optimistic, perhaps.

Thanks John, I know it's silly but I was hoping to get my dissertation bounded in his favourite colour to be a bit original as everyone I knew either had red, which is the university colour, black or white.

What a brilliant idea, Alannah! :)

Yes, a great idea, particularly as he actually used this colour paper for printing bills and posters, according to the reference I found.

Jean - thank you for that reply. I pity any bureaucrat, jobsworth, or planning official [note the Oxford comma!] who you have a 'discussion' with! Good for you.

LOL John - but sadly it makes little difference, as Dickens frequently pointed out in his accounts of the Circumlocution Office and suchlike abominations...

Alannah wrote: "Thanks John, I know it's silly but I was hoping to get my dissertation bounded in his favourite colour to be a bit original as everyone I knew either had red, which is the university colour, black ..."

Great idea Alannah!

And John, your comment 437 made me smile! I think that the bitter humor of the Circumlocution Office was one of the things I liked best about Little Dorrit...

I am listening to a dramatisation of Little Dorrit at the moment, and the prevarications of Tite Barnacle are just delicious :)

It'll be some time before I reach Little Dorrit in my 'Dickens in order' project, but just reading all these comments about it makes me remember, and smile. What a treat in store for me.

I've just finished Ch 51 (of 82) of Barnaby Rudge), and while still very enjoyable, the unfolding of the violence of the Gordon Riots is a little tedious, rather like some battle skirmish passages in Shakespeare. I'm sure Kenneth Williams would be shouting 'oh, do get on with it.'

LOL John - I'm not sure he was at his best in Barnaby Rudge, really. But there are some good bits earlier if I remember rightly...

I'm now wondering whether there's a good part in any of the novels for Kenneth Williams. Surely there must be? :D

While I was writing my Dombey and Son chapter, I was thinking that when I started this dissertation, I was not expecting to argue very much in Dickens's favour. Now I'm using the DAS to argue about sexism and patriarchy in which Dickens was clearly against.

Fantastic, Alannah! I hope it's still going well. I must have said this before, but I'd love to read your dissertation when you've finished it :)

Dickens always seems to be better at showing what he was against, rather than what he was for, didn't he? There's masses of his diatribes, and caricatures of people he considered evil, but you have to search carefully for the positives. Dombey and Son's a good choice though. Even the title...

It was recommended by a tutor when I said that I wanted to explore sexism and patriarchy in the Victorian age.

I have finally finished Nicholas Nickleby! I found it very hard going in the middle but I really enjoyed the last 150 pages.

(view spoiler)[ I cried at the death of smike! (hide spoiler)]

I think the serial aspect of the book doesn't really appeal. In the same way I didn't really like The Pickwick Papers. This book does have some classic moments thought and it ends in a very satisfying way.

I agree with what you say in your review, Jean. I think I will only remember small amounts of the plot- I can already only vaguely remember the entire section with the acting troupe. However, this is definitely a book worth reading even if it's just for the wonderful characters (Smike, Browdie, Mr Mantalini, the Cheerybles etc!)

Heather - I've been ploughing onwards and have read Barnaby Rudge and Martin Chuzzlewit since finishing NN. Now just started Dombey & Son. Although some plots, constructions, etc, are better than others, I agree with your main point that it's the characters and the wonderful writing in many passages that is so great! I've got to the stage where I don't really care what happens, but just revel in 'Dickens'.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean! For me, this is why Dickens is always great for a reread, as I remember some of the main characters so well, but other minor ones come up as "new" every time I read it!

A perfect example is when John was reading it, and he'd got to the bit about the Cheerbyle brothers, I said, "Oooh, are they in this book?" See? I had remembered the characters, but not the book in which they occurred! Weird!

Well done for finishing Nicholas Nickleby though, Heather - not an easy task taking on a long Victorian novel when in the throes of a stressful job, studying and moving house... Glad you got some pleasure from it. Yes, that part you mention is very affecting - I will always remember that :(

It's nice to wonder how Dickens would reconstruct his novels, if they no longer had to be written in serial form. I suppose with each new "adaptation" for cinema or TV, the writer is trying to wrestle with a new construct. Bleak House is one where different screenplay writers start at different points,and what they choose to miss out or focus one makes it like a completely different story each time!

I've been meaning to update this, and according to my new plan, of alternating books about Dickens with his novels, I finished reading Charles Dickens and the Great Theatre of the World by Simon Callow, and enjoyed it enormously.

Because Simon Callow has a unique perspective (an actor and closet writer, writing about a writer and not-so-closet actor/manager!) he has some great insights. The book goes more into the theatrical world than any other bio of Charles Dickens that I've read, and derives interesting psychological conclusions - such as evidence of multiphrenia, which seems very likely to me. As I said, Dickens would often leap up to check his own expression in the mirror...

Here's my review

How true about structure, and how film/television adapts Dickens. The same is true of some other classics - Jane Eyre: sometimes you'd think she was born a governess.

I think I will continue to keep reading Dickens with you, Jean. I do find his works entertaining plus there is a sense of satisfaction in finishing one. I guess the books are written as serials so it's ok if it takes me 3 months to finish as it's more in line with the Victorian readers!

I have already read The Old Curiosity shop so I will have a break before the next one.

That's really lovely Heather! I realise that I've slowed right down, whereas John has speeded right up, but you have to do what's right for you, and I'm happier this way as there were several books about Dickens that I also wanted to read. I do know what you mean about the sense of satisfaction. The Old Curiosity Shop is sometimes thought of as a short one, but it's 73 chapters, yikes!

I hope some others join in, but understand if I'm on my own for this one. And I'm sure you and John can chat with me about it once I get going ;)

John - yes, I find with abridged audio books that the story of a long classic novel can be completely different in each version! That's why I don't like them. But with a TV or film, there is the added joy of the sets, period feel, atmosphere etc which can really bring them to life and make up for it a bit.

Jean wrote: "The Old Curiosity Shop is sometimes thought of as a short one, but it's 73 chapters, yikes!

I hope some others join in, but understand if I'm on my own for this one. And I'm sure you and John can chat with me about it once I get going ;)..."

I think that I will join you for this as I have been enjoying reading Dickens & this is a new one for me.

Heather - I also found that part of NN very affecting. Dickens does a good job pulling my heart strings.