Reading the Classics discussion

Please discuss the classic Peter Pan.

I'm about half-way through already; this will be a nice, short read.

It's quite nonsensical, which I find delightful. It was funny when Wendy was born, and her parents had to discuss whether they could afford to keep her, and of course a Newfoundland for a nursemaid!

Peter is a somewhat dark character, I think. He's self-centered, egotistical, and seems to take violence in stride. I thought it was a bit chilling when we were told, in a very matter-of-fact manner, that the number of Lost Boys varies, because some of them get killed, and even more so, that as they grow up, Peter 'thins them out'.

And so far, Tinkerbell is rather a nasty little thing! Perfect depiction of a jealous, possessive woman.

Reading this from an adults perspective it is amazing how the author gets inside 'the map of a childs mind' to describe what they perceive to be going on.
The descriptive prose is wonderful. I have just read the part where Tinker bells 'Boudoir and bedroom in one' is described.'The chest of drawers is an authentic Charming the Sixth and the chandelier from Tiddly winks'
I am reading this gorgeous book (my copy is the 100th Anniversary Edition illustrated)with a huge Cheshire cat esque grin on my face.

I'm just about halfway through, and am very caught up in the rhythm of the language. Every now and then I bump into a word with which I'm not familiar and enjoy tracking it down. On p. 17 in my book, Barrie has this lovely section about the Neverlands:

"On these magic shores children at play are for ever [sic] beaching their coracles. We too have been there; we can still hear the sound of the surf, though we shall land no more."

Coracles (from the Welsh "cwrwgl") have a history dating back thousands of years. The coracle was originally covered with animal skins and in some countries they are still made this way. Since the tiny craft only holds one person, the image works really well for the idea that "Neverland" is different for each individual.

My copy was my mother's and was given to her in 1931. Its title is Peter Pan and Wendy and has lovely illustrations (color plates and black-and-white drawings) by Mabel Lucie Attwell. However, I was looking up this title on wikipedia, and found the following:

"The novel was first abridged by May Byron in 1915, with Barrie's permission, and published under the title Peter Pan and Wendy, the first time this form was used. This version was later illustrated by Mabel Lucie Attwell in 1921. The novel is now usually published under that title or simply Peter Pan."

So I'm not sure if I have an abridged version. There is no reference anywhere in the book to it being abridged or any other author than Barrie. But it's the version I know!

I'm reading a children's edition, with my daughter. We've only got started but I'm shocked at how horrible Peter and Tinkerbell are. The reason I'm surprised is that (dare I say it) as a kid, I was never interested in reading Peter Pan or watching any adaptation of it, so I only have a very vague idea about the storyline and not much more about the characters. I kind of wish I had the original version so I can really get into the discussion, however, I'll at least be able to contribute about the story and characters. :)

Kate, good points. I'm 73 and never read Peter Pan, but along with my surprise at Peter and Tink being so mean, I'm even more surprised at how childish and selfish Mr. Darling is! The whole business with the medicine is awful--he lies to his children and then tricks Nana!

I love Mrs. Darling, with the nesting "boxes" of her mind plus that mysterious "kiss". And I smiled at the part where she "was tidying up her children's minds" as they slept.

Tootles stands out as being the most honest of the boys, but I'm waiting for Peter to show something besides all the crowing and bossing others about. The worst is when he thinks Wendy is dead, and considers just leaving! "He thought of hopping off in a comic sort of way till he was out of sight of her, and then never going near the spot any more."

I know this is all magical and exaggerated, but then so is Harry Potter--and I much prefer Rowling's Hogwarts to Neverland at this point!

Think I'm going to look up some background on both Barrie and this book, as well as the time period in which it was written.

It's strange reading this thread and finally agreeing with people about Peter and Wendy! I've never seen the Disney film, only read the book, and most people don't understand why I'm not the biggest fan - as I child I simply didn't like Neverland so the book didn't capture my imagination in the same way as others.

I just learned this bit:

"The night before JM Barrie's brother David was to celebrate his 14th birthday, he went skating, was accidentally knocked down by a friend and fractured his skull on the ice. The death of his older brother, the apple of his mother's eye, left a huge scar on six-year-old Jamie and he spent years worshipping David's memory and trying to comfort his mother and gain her affection, even once entering her darkened bedroom dressed up in his brother's clothes." http://www.heraldscotland.com/tragedy...

I'm sensing a darkness in the book that I hadn't expected, since Disney always "sugar coats" stories, and I had only seen that film. This one small bit of information certainly would bring a poignant sadness to the Peter Pan story.

Julia wrote: "I just learned this bit:

"The night before JM Barrie's brother David was to celebrate his 14th birthday, he went skating, was accidentally knocked down by a friend and fractured his skull on the ..."

Hi Julia

That's an interesting, although very sad, fact to hear and that feeling definitely comes through in the story. I wonder, if anyone, who Peter and Tinkerbell may be based on?

I'm up to where Tinkerbell is flying Wendy off to an inevitable death, all because she's jealous. My daughter has lost interest. I'm not surprised. Like you said, the story is dark. I haven't read anything yet that makes me understand why the story was so successful. Perhaps he wrote it as a bitter reaction to his brother's death, and being young at the time, had hoped or imaged that his brother would be brought back by something, like stories in the fairytales go. Fairies are always good, so having a bad fairy may have been his way to 'muddy' their stereotypical characteristics. It's also interesting why Tinkerbell is so jealous too and is prepared to have her rival killed. I'm sure jealous presented itself in many way, especially if Barrie felt he had to dress like his brother to get his mother's attention. Very sad indeed.

Raz wrote: "It's strange reading this thread and finally agreeing with people about Peter and Wendy! I've never seen the Disney film, only read the book, and most people don't understand why I'm not the bigges..."

Hi Raz

Like Julia said below, Disney sure know how to sugarcoat things. Most people don't even know the original fairytales which often did not have a happy ending. Like you, I never found it got my attention. Now I'm reading it, I understand why. LOL.

I'm new to this group, so first, hello.

I've been thinking about Peter Pan's loss of his shadow - and about light and dark generally(for example, Tinker Bell as a source of light, has no shadow), and wondered if the loss of a shadow has significance in fairy/folk tales generally. Can anyone help?

In the original play, it's interesting that the same actor is always cast as both Mr Darling and Captain Hook.

MN wrote: "I'm new to this group, so first, hello.

I've been thinking about Peter Pan's loss of his shadow - and about light and dark generally(for example, Tinker Bell as a source of light, has no shadow),..."

Hi there and welcome

I think it could have. I think I may have come across a similar idea in Women Who Run With the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype. It talks about the myths that represent female instinct, and I vaguely remember it talking about shadows.

MN wrote: "I'm new to this group, so first, hello.

I've been thinking about Peter Pan's loss of his shadow - and about light and dark generally(for example, Tinker Bell as a source of light, has no shadow),..."

Also, Hans Christian Andersen wrote a fairy tale titled "The Shadow". I'll have to put that on the to read list. It could shine some light (pardon the pun. LOL!).

The best example of the loss of a shadow comes in the Catherynne M. Valente Fairyland series:

The Girl Who Circumnavigated Fairyland in a Ship of Her Own Making
The Girl Who Fell Beneath Fairyland and Led the Revels There
The Girl Who Soared Over Fairyland and Cut the Moon in Two

It's even more powerful, since September sacrifices her shadow in the first book to save another--and then her shadow becomes the dark ruler in the second book.

I love this entire series.

My son lives in Manhattan and took his family to see the play version of Peter and the Starcatchers. The book is the first of five, the others being Peter and the Shadow Thieves, Peter and the Secret of Rundoon, Peter and the Sword of Mercy, and The Bridge to Never Land.

Peter and the Starcatcher: The Annotated Script of the Broadway Play is also available.

"The story is an adventure on the high seas and on the faraway Mollusk island. An orphan boy named Peter and his pretty, mysterious new friend, Molly, overcome bands of pirates and thieves in their quest to keep a magical secret safe and save the world from evil. Characters include the scary but somehow familiar Black "Stache" Moustache and ferocious crocodile Mister Grin to the sweet but sophisticated Molly and fearless Peter.

Molly and Peter take a voyage with Alf, James, Thomas, Prentiss, Tubby Ted, Slank and Little Richard from a filthy, crime-ridden port in Old England across the turbulent sea. Aboard the Never Land is a trunk that holds the "greatest treasure on earth," thought by its pursuers to be gold or jewels but revealed to be "starstuff." The trunk is moved from place to place through storms and sea battles: once in a dry, guarded cabin, next in a ship full of greedy pirates, and then out in the open sea.

While on the ship, both Peter and Molly become close as they take on Slank and many other villains, including pirates. While they try to keep the "starstuff" out of the wrong hands, the ship wrecks and Molly saves Peter from death, they fly for an unknown island.

When they shipwreck on the mysterious island, known as Mollusk Island, Molly is kidnapped by Slank and Peter saves her from him, along with the help of James, Thomas, Prentiss, and Tubby Ted who all go by the gang name The Lost Boys. The book ends with Molly and Peter saying goodbye to each other and with Peter promising to visit her. Molly and father, Leonard Aster, return to the real world, while Peter and the Lost Boys remain on Mollusk Island, which they rename Neverland."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_an...

I love the idea of "starstuff" and plan to read THIS version of Peter Pan at some point.

Phil wrote: "In the original play, it's interesting that the same actor is always cast as both Mr Darling and Captain Hook."

That *is interesting - and perhaps could help explain Hook's attitude towards 'form' towards the end. I also wondered whether a connection could be drawn between Peter Pan and Mr Darling.

Kate wrote: "MN wrote: "I'm new to this group, so first, hello.

I've been thinking about Peter Pan's loss of his shadow - and about light and dark generally(for example, Tinker Bell as a source of light, has ..."

I've just read Byatt's *The Children's Book, in which a shadow is lost. The novel is set during the period in which Barrie wrote *Peter Pan, and given the centrality of German folklore to the plot (as well as Byatt's reliability resources), wondered whether German folklore influenced Barrie.

I read The Little White Bird first, because this had Peter Pan's debut in it. This was like the Beta version. Here Peter was only a week old, but capable of doing some pretty strenuous things for a week old baby. I then read Peter Pan. Now this was the Peter Pan I vaguely remembered from the Mary Martin version on TV. Also I found a 1924 Silent film of Peter Pan. This was very close to the book, at times even verbatim.
I did enjoy the book. J.M.Barrie wrote like he had a firm grasp of what being a child encompasses. I noticed this in The Little White Bird as well. His inner child must have been wide awake.

Julia wrote: "My son lives in Manhattan and took his family to see the play version of Peter and the Starcatchers. The book is the first of five, the others being [book:Peter and the Shadow Thieves|..."

I'll keep a note to look into those one day Julia. :)

MN wrote: "Kate wrote: "MN wrote: "I'm new to this group, so first, hello.

I've been thinking about Peter Pan's loss of his shadow - and about light and dark generally(for example, Tinker Bell as a source o..."

Interesting. Sounds like a huge possibility. I love folklore. I need to add some to my to read list too.

Michael Morpugo has an interesting take on the treatment of childhood in Peter Pan - this is from his BBC Radio series the *Invention of Childhood:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00shl8f

Children's writers, at the time Barrie was writing, are understood as a compensating for a general loss of religious faith by creating 'a fantasy world with fantasy children' to compensate for the loss of belief in heaven.

Marguerite

Barrie had me at page 1.
"All children, except one grow up. They soon know that they will grow up...Mrs. Darling cried,'Oh why can't you remain like this for ever!'...henceforth Wendy knew she must grow up...Two is the beginning of the end."
I can't believe how many children's books I read to myself and my daughter, but never Peter and Wendy, just the Golden Book of Peter Pan. This abridged edition of course, includes the main characters, Hook, Smee, Tinker Bell, the crocodile, etc. but it leaves out Barrie's sarcastic and wise commetary.
The Lost Boys knew,"in what they called their hearts that one can get on quite well without a mother, and that it is only mothers who think you can't." One of the Lost Boys remembers that his mother used to ask his father for a check book of her own.
Peter's cockiness and crowing is a large part of his charm and also an irritant and a stumbling block to his growth and his ability to maintain relationships.
If you've seen Mary Martin flying to Neverland, you're probably hooked on the story, but there's so much more.

I finally finished Peter Pan! I have to be honest and say I'm glad it's over with. I know it's a classic and normally I get some level of enjoyment out of any story, however, I just could not find anything I like in Peter Pan. Even the most likeable character for me, Wendy, got on my nerves. Peter, what a horrible creature. He and Tinker Bell deserve each other. Normally I would feel sorry for someone who is missing a mother, but his behaviour leaves no room for me to have any empathy for him. Although, I will say, it is very suitable for children as it is told from the egocentric perspective a child could contend with. Unfortunately I can't. I'm not sure I could, even if I was reading it as a child, because I always need to feel some emotional connection with someone in the story and I just didn't. :(

A BIG ditto to that, Kate--for me, Mr. Darling was the character who left the worst taste in my mouth, so to speak. And then his whole guilt trip bit about living in Nana's doghouse?? He may be my least favorite character in ANY book!

Somehow the end is really chilling, to think that Peter keeps coming back and taking all of Wendy's descendants. And what was that bit about PETER being the one to take Mrs. Darling's kiss??? "...and then he flew away. He took Mrs. Darling's kiss with him. The kiss that had been for no one else, Peter took quite easily." That spoiled, selfish boy gets that special kiss?

I not only didn't find an emotional connection with any of the characters, but actually felt repulsion for some of them, especially Mr. Darling and Tinker Bell.

Finished last night! I really enjoyed this read. It was fun for me to compare it to the Disney movie, since that was my go-to happy movie after watching something scary haha...
Two of my favorite chapters were actually left out of the Disney movie: The Never Bird, and When Wendy Grew Up. I couldn't decide if I liked Barrie's writing style, however I liked his asides to the reader.
I can see why some of you don't like it because the likability of the characters. I didn't necessarily like any of the characters, but it wouldn't be the same without jealous Tink or the egotistical Peter. I think the character flaws make the story more interesting for me.
This was a short and fun read and I will probably read it again in the future! :)

Julia wrote: "A BIG ditto to that, Kate--for me, Mr. Darling was the character who left the worst taste in my mouth, so to speak. And then his whole guilt trip bit about living in Nana's doghouse?? He may be my ..."

I agree Julia. When Wendy's daughter went off with Peter, a big "No!" cried out from inside of me. I laughed at Mr Darling in the dog house. What a pathetic man. I'm still at a loss. I really don't get why this story is so well liked. LOL.

I just read The Shadow. It was a very interesting read and in the story the shadow represents the dark side of the protagonist. I've just looked up Carl Jung and his theories on 'the shadow'. He says that the shadow archetype is 'a set of shared unconscious, instinctual psychological ideas that are passed down from generation to generation… [and] these thoughts and instincts are expressed as archetypes and can influence a person’s behavior without his or her conscious knowledge'. Hmmm… It leaves me thinking, since Peter Pan does not have, or at least disowns, his family, is this why he does not have a shadow?

I started with Peter in Kensington Garden. It's the story of Peter at the beginning. I had a lot of sympathy for Peter in this story. It was heartbreaking at the end. I am now reading Peter and Wendy.

I thought the part about Mr. Darling living in Nana's doghouse was very funny. It seemed to start as genuine contrition (although a rather strange way of expressing it), but it soon turned into him playing the martyr for the attention it got him. Everybody wanted him to come to their parties! He was the 'in' thing of the season. I'll bet he was more popular than he had been before, and he enjoyed it. The idea of physically carrying the doghouse (with Mr. Darling in it) out to the car, and into his office was delightfully absurd.

The Peter Pan Syndrome (1983) and The Wendy Dilemma: When Women Stop Mothering Their Men (1985) were written by Dan Kiley, who was considered a "pop" psychologist. However, Carl Jung reflected the idea of the Peter Pan syndrome in his study of the "puer aeternua":

"Swiss psychiatrist Carl Gustav Jung developed a school of thought called analytical psychology, distinguishing it from the psychoanalysis of Sigmund Freud (1856–1939). In analytical psychology (often called "Jungian psychology") the puer aeternus is an example of what Jung called an archetype, one of the "primordial, structural elements of the human psyche"....

Like all archetypes, the puer is bi-polar, exhibiting both a "positive" and a "negative" aspect. The "positive" side of the puer appears as the Divine Child who symbolizes newness, potential for growth, hope for the future. He also foreshadows the hero that he sometimes becomes (e.g. Heracles). The "negative" side is the child-man who refuses to grow up and meet the challenges of life face on, waiting instead for his ship to come in and solve all his problems."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puer_aet...

Kate wrote: "I just read The Shadow. It was a very interesting read and in the story the shadow represents the dark side of the protagonist. I've just looked up Carl Jung and his theories on '..."

I found "The Shadow" by Hans Christian Anderson online at http://www.online-literature.com/hans.... Thanks for this--what a chilling story!

Julia wrote: "Kate wrote: "I just read The Shadow. It was a very interesting read and in the story the shadow represents the dark side of the protagonist. I've just looked up Carl Jung and his ..."

You're welcome Julia. :-)

I just finished the book and found it to be a rewarding and lighthearted update to my childhood memories. Loss of maternal care struck me as a very relevant theme. As annoyingly self-centered the children were, they were also profoundly bereft of care and love. Even Captain Hook feels the loss, if not less articulated then certainly supplanted by his internal conflict of forms. Good form signals a return to the behavior of an obedient child. But alas, he never finds it in Neverland.

Is there any significance, I wonder, to Peter's last name? It reminds me of Pan's Labyrinth, also a haunting, albeit more modern, classic.

Lyn wrote: "I just finished the book and found it to be a rewarding and lighthearted update to my childhood memories. Loss of maternal care struck me as a very relevant theme. As annoyingly self-centered the c..."

Whilst reading it, I kept thinking back to Lord of the Flies. I haven't seen Pan's Labyrinth, but will put it on my forever growing wish list. :)

Pan's Labyrinth is a film; this book is a discussion about it: Studying Pan's Labyrinth

Lyn is so right--the film is a haunting one. "Pan's Labyrinth (Spanish: El laberinto del fauno, "The Labyrinth of the faun") is a 2006 Mexican-Spanish dark fantasy film[3][4] written and directed by Guillermo del Toro." So in the case of the film, "pan" is a translation of the word "faun". In mythology, fauns were connected to the god Pan.

"Peter's last name derives from the Greek god Pan, the son of the trickster god Hermes by a wood nymph of Arcadia....Like Peter, the god Pan is a contradictory figure. He haunts solitary mountains and groves, where he's quick to anger if he's disturbed, but he also loves company, music, dancing, and riotous celebrations." http://www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/r...

Thanks for the references, Julia. Peter certainly has the ego and temperament of a god (except his forgetfulness!). And I wonder, if not for the approaching ending, what new exploits "Captain Pan" with his suit of the "wickedest garments" might pull...

I finished the book yesterday. I never read it as a child and I enjoyed it quite a lot, it definitely brings you memories of better times. While I was reading the Lost Boys adventures I could see myself when I used to play pirates and indians in school.
I don't find Peter so horrible, one has to remember he's only a child and he's hurted. Childs can be really shelfish and careless sometimes. I really liked Garfio, I found really funny that his greatest concern are good manners, being the villein he is.

Thanks so much, Alba--I love that Hook's name in Spanish is "Garfio" :-) And you've really made me think about the picture I have in my head of Peter Pan (based mainly on Jeremy Sumpter's performance in the 2003 film). Sumper was 13 when he played the part:



You're so right; Peter is a hurt child", and in 2012 a photo album was discovered that had this picture of the boy Barrie wanted used as a model for the Peter Pan statue in Kensington. Michael was just six, which fits in much better with the idea he has his "baby teeth".


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...

"The remarkable collection of 150 black and white photos - which is expected to fetch £18,000 - represents the only known record of the early years of the Llewelyn Davies boys Peter, George, Jack, Michael and Nico behind Barrie’s most famous creation."

So many thanks for helping me "rethink" my reaction to the book. Imagining Peter as six years old casts a different feel to the book for me.

MN wrote: "Phil wrote: "In the original play, it's interesting that the same actor is always cast as both Mr Darling and Captain Hook."

That *is interesting - and perhaps could help explain Hook's attitude t..."

I think Disney actually did this as well... if I recall correctly, the same actor voices both characters in the animated film.

I personally really did enjoy this book. While I agree that at times the characters seemed cruel it really didn't bother me. Peter was just a little kid who didn't have any way to know better.

I also really enjoyed J.M. Barrie's writing style. His Neverland was a magical place and I had a blast visiting it with the children. Some of my favorite parts were the little asides Barrie put into the book. I found these parts to be very humorous!

Okay - my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

"I ummed and ahhed over whether this was really a 5 star or a 4 star book and eventually plumped (as you can see) for 5 because unlike the Sherlock Holmes stories, this really does live up to its titular character's modern legendary status.

The book is written in an informal, "read aloud" style, with asides, slang, and urges to clap if you believe in fairies and this adds to its appeal. The character of Pan himself is masterful - the boy who never grows up; with all the glories and tragedies, the arrogance and innocence, the victories and failings that that all implies. Pan is the cockiest boy in the world, but also loveable and fallible. He's glorious and fearless, but also cruel and heartless - but heartless in an innocent way.

The world is beautifully constructed out of half-remembered dreams, childhood games and lost innocence - the battles between the pirates, the Lost Boys and the redskins are surprisingly bloody, with real deaths in the way that boys and girls play battles and games that always involve gore and blood letting.

Unfortunately, I've just found out that Barrie *didn't* invent the name Wendy, which was uncommon but a familiar form of Gwendolyn, however it's subsequent popularity CAN be laid at the door of his Wendy House (which *was* named after the book / play).

Inside this book there are really deep thoughts of what it means to grow up, what are the real relationships between a child and its parents or between a parent and its children, what do we lose or gain when we become adults, what is there in the power of make-believe.

And when Peter returns for Wendy's grand-daughter generations later there's joy and no little fear.

I loved this book. Perhaps 5 stars shouldn't have been SO difficult to give after all."

Great review, Phil! Thanks for sharing!

Hi,
I joined the group a few days back and have just started reading Peter Pan. I'd like to say hi and this is a good thing we have going on here :). About the book, I've never read this book before but had a brief idea about the story. I must say that this is not a mere children fantasy. The jealousy of Tink and the conceited nature of Peter suggest something deeper. The attraction between Wendy and Peter it's also somehow not child-like. And what IS Mrs. Darling's kiss??

Cheers,
Sid

Hi, I'm about halfway through (at The Never Bird chapter) and am loving it. I know it's rather typical of such stories of the times (I'm thinking The Hobbit, and the George McDonald stories) but I do find the tone a little too condescending which bothers me. I've also never read it before but have always been fascinated by the character. It has surprised me that Peter is obviously very young, much younger than I had imagined, and sometimes makes it hard to picture in my mind. I've read a bit about the background to the original story and play which is interesting. And I have "J M Barie and the Lost Boys" by Andrew Birkin which I'll read when I'm done. It looks fascinating too. :)

I think that Mrs Darling's "kiss" isn't a kiss as we think of it, in the same way that it can be a thimble or an acorn I think that the "kiss" at the side of Mrs Darling's mouth that not even Wendy can reach is her lost childhood, her innocence, her world of make believe, the carefree days before marriage and children and adulthood. Because Peter embodies all these, and because she remembers him from her own girlhood, that's why he manages to take it so easily.

Phil wrote: "I think that Mrs Darling's "kiss" isn't a kiss as we think of it, in the same way that it can be a thimble or an acorn I think that the "kiss" at the side of Mrs Darling's mouth that not even Wendy..."

"Her romantic mind was like the tiny boxes, one within the other, that come from the puzzling East, however many you discover there is always one more; and her sweet mocking mouth had one kiss on it that Wendy could never get, though there it was, perfectly conspicuous in the right-hand corner."

So the tiny, unreachable box and the kiss represents here memories of childhood and innocence? The fact that the kiss is termed as "perfectly conspicuous" confuses me a little bit? What is the author trying to signify here? Is Mrs. Darling keeping a certain part of her detached from the others, which her family knows is there but she wouldn't share - like a secret?

I've only reached chapter IV so there's much that remains to be unveiled. I hope the queries are not premature. :)

By the way, I just loved the part where Michael and Mr Darling challenge each other for a medicine-duel. It was beautifully written. The disbelief of Wendy and the chagrin of Michael was perfectly delectable. :)

Julia wrote: "Thanks so much, Alba--I love that Hook's name in Spanish is "Garfio" :-) And you've really made me think about the picture I have in my head of Peter Pan (based mainly on Jeremy Sumpter's performan..."

Fantastic bit of info! Thanks, Julia.