The Pickwick Club discussion

I don't know if everybody will take kindly to my opening this thread here, when, strictly speaking, it does not have anything to do with the novel we're discussing - but then who wants to speak strictly during Christmas Time?!

Coming across this select Pickwick Club last March or April was the essence of - sorry, Kim, but I have to use that pompous word again - serendipity for me because Dickens is one of my all-time favourite writers and in real life, esp. in Germany, it's difficult to meet somebody who feels the same keen interest in his works, let alone a bunch of people.

And what splendid kind of people you are! There may be some grumpiness around here from time to time, but this is with regard to some of Dickens's decisions as a writer, and never with regard to another member of the club. On the contrary, all the people discussing here are kind, helpful in giving information one may require, interested in exchanging ideas, and above all, humourous.

That's why I like being around, and I am sure we'd make a marvellously merry Christmas company, all with carols, punch, snow and shining lights included.

Therefore a Merry, Merry Christmas to all of you - especially to Jonathan, who started this group -, a happy time with your family and friends, and all the health and joy and peace that you need.

Merrily yours,
Tristram

Tristram and all fellow Pickwickians

Merry Christmas to you all, my friends, and happy holidays from Victoria, British Columbia, Canada. It's a wonderful feeling to know I am connected with people from around the world.

Hi everyone

Cheers to that! Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I'm so glad I managed to stumble across you guys. I look forward to lots more great discussion on my favourite author.

Bah. Humbug.

That was for Kim, since she insists against all proof to the contrary that I'm still a grump.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE. It is wonderful to participate in this special and diverse group . An experience I will treasure all my life. Especially ACC. in 2013 I read ACC along with dickens fans from around the world . You guys are great. Have a safe and happy holiday all!!!

There is no way I can really wish you guys as merry a Christmas as I hope you all have. There are no words that totally can capture my feelings about Christmas, how much I love the holiday, how much I enjoy this time, and how much I hope you have the same feeling at this time of the year as I do. We were sitting in a restaurant tonight with my mother-in-law having a Christmas "dinner" just with her alone, and the entire time we were there Christmas music was playing. Silent Night came on and all I could think of was that we were sitting in a restaurant surrounded by lots and lots of people and we are all listening to music about the birth of the Lord. So there I sat listening and crying of course, like I am now thinking about it. Christmas is like that, at no other time of the year can I sit among people and hear music about Jesus (except at church of course) only at Christmas. Christmas makes the world better, and I certainly hope it is making your world better right now. Even grumpy people who go live on islands all by themselves far away from everyone. Kind of like the grinch.

So I'll try saying Merry Christmas to all of you, whereever you are;

"Joyeux Noël"

"Froehliche Weihnachten"

"Feliz Navidad"

"Vrolijk Kerstfeest en een Gelukkig Nieuwjaar"

"Mele Kalikimaka"

"Mo'adim Lesimkha. Chena tova"

and of course,

"En frehlicher Grischtdaag un en hallich Nei Yaahr" (that's Pennsylvania Dutch supposedly)

I threw in a couple extras because they looked cool. Don't forget Mr. Grinch, that the Grinch, he himself carved the roast beast, better sharpen your knife. :-}

Happy Christmas to all and to all a goodnight. :-}

Tristram wrote: "I don't know if everybody will take kindly to my opening this thread here, when, strictly speaking, it does not have anything to do with the novel we're discussing - but then who wants to speak str..."

"Froehliche Weihnachten" to you Tristram, I am taking a stab in the dark that this is the German phraseology. In an interesting note, I could not look it up, because I gave my thick German-English dictionary to the Polish girl, whom I hardly know, but ardently love, because she is so ambitious about learning the that rough-sounding language. I think I might have scared her by showing up to work with the prodigious tome, and I'm not sure she recalled telling me of her aspirations to the learn the language. Oh, well, such is life.

To my other fellow Pickwickians, I have enjoyed this year and this group immensely. Having a place to share, and wonderful friends, if you would all be so kind as to allow me to apply that appellation to yourselves, to share these great novels with, has meant a lot. I am surprised that we have so many actively participating members, and I can honestly say I am enjoying getting to know you guys--especially Tristram, Kim, and Grump--more than I am even enjoying the works. It's been a pleasure. It is a little late for a Merry Christmas, but here's to a Happy New Year! Notwithstanding, it is never too late for a BAH HUMBUG directed to you know who!

Jonathan wrote: "It's been a pleasure. It is a little late for a Merry Christmas, but here's to a Happy New Year! Notwithstanding, it is never too late for a BAH HUMBUG directed to you know who!"

It is never to late to wish someone a Merry Christmas! I get it all year long. I also get asked all year long how many days it is until Christmas, right now it's 356 days 8 hours 28 minutes until Christmas.

Oh, and the term Grump could apply to more than one of you. :-}

I was also referring to myself.

Kim wrote: "

There is no way I can really wish you guys as merry a Christmas as I hope you all have. There are no words that totally can capture my feelings about Christmas, how much I love the holiday, how ..."

I especially liked your greetings for Christmas and New Year in Pennsylvania Dutch because I can understand every word of it. However, it does not sound like Dutch at all but more like a variant of a Frankonian or Palatine German dialect - if one can tell from so small a sample.

Maybe the word "Dutch" here is a corrupted version of "Deutsch"; as for example in "Dutch angle", which is a cinema term for a slanted camera angle and which was typical of the German expressionistic cinema. At any rate, it is interesting to know that there are people in Pennsylvania speaking some sort of German, or "Dutch".

Jonathan wrote: "learning the that rough-sounding language"

It's funny you should say that because I hardly think of my mother tongue as a rough sounding language at all. It's not as beautiful as Spanish, which, by the way, I find much rougher-sounding, but I like it for its guttural sounds. Guttural sounds are cool because they allow you to clear your throat in the process of speaking.

German is also a very practical language as it allows you to combine any number of words into new words by just putting them together - you know that sort of thing Mark Twain described in his essay on the German language. This really works.

But then I think English is the most elegant language and the one richest in nuance - but we might save that topic for a rainy day.

Kim wrote: "Oh, and the term Grump could apply to more than one of you. :-} "

Maybe we can run a competition in 2014 of who is the grumpiest grump of all Grumpendom?

By definition grumpy people are sullen and largely quiet with irritable gestures. They are disregarded for the most part as resisting the reasonable majority for obsolete ideas.

I just don't see it. Grumpy isn't the word.

Tristram, "Pennsylvania Dutch" actually comes from German and is a corrupted version of "Deutsch". The Amish came originally mainly from Southern Germany and the areas in France and Switzerland that border Southwest Germany.

Tristram wrote: "Kim wrote: "Oh, and the term Grump could apply to more than one of you. :-} "

Maybe we can run a competition in 2014 of who is the grumpiest grump of all Grumpendom?"

I'm pretty sure I already know who would win.

Christine wrote: "By definition grumpy people are sullen and largely quiet with irritable gestures. They are disregarded for the most part as resisting the reasonable majority for obsolete ideas.

I just don't see ..."


Yeah, the people I have in mind, they know that grumpy is still the right word. :-}

Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Kim wrote: "Oh, and the term Grump could apply to more than one of you. :-} "

Maybe we can run a competition in 2014 of who is the grumpiest grump of all Grumpendom?"

I'm pretty ..."

Is this your gentle way of encouraging me? ;-)

Hedi wrote: "Tristram, "Pennsylvania Dutch" actually comes from German and is a corrupted version of "Deutsch". The Amish came originally mainly from Southern Germany and the areas in France and Switzerland tha..."

I should look into that a bit more. My only knowledge on the Amish is based on this movie starring Harrison Ford, if I'm honest. Thanks for the information, Hedi!

Tristram wrote: "I should look into that a bit more. My only knowledge on the Amish is based on this movie starring Harrison Ford, if I'm honest."

I always just assumed that the word was deutsch and we were originally PA Deutsch, but as with a lot of other things as years went we just started spelling and saying it differently. Oh, and I also just assumed that Deutsch meant German. Truth is, I have barely thought about it at all, but here's an article I read about it:



First of all, we can quickly dispose of the "Pennsylvania Dutch" misnomer. The term is more properly "Pennsylvania German" because the so-called Pennsylvania Dutch have nothing to do with Holland, the Netherlands, or the Dutch language. They originally came from German-speaking areas of Europe and speak (or used to speak) a dialect of German they refer to as "Deitsch" (Deutsch). It is this word "Deutsch" (German) that has led to the second misconception about the origin of the term Pennsylvania Dutch.

Deutsch became Dutch?
A popular explanation of why the Pennsylvania Germans are often incorrectly called Pennsylvania Dutch fits into the "plausible" category of myths. At first, it seems logical that English-speaking Pennsylvanians simply confused the word "Deutsch" for "Dutch." But then you have to ask yourself, were they really that ignorant—and wouldn't the Pennsylvania Dutch themselves have bothered to correct people constantly calling them "Dutchmen"? But this Deutsch/Dutch explanation further falls apart when you realize that many of the Pennsylvania Dutch actually prefer that term over Pennsylvania German! They also use the term "Dutch" or "Dutchmen" to refer to themselves.

I personally prefer another explanation. Some linguists have made the case that the term Pennsylvania Dutch goes back to the original English use of the word "Dutch." Although there is no definitive evidence that links it to the term Pennsylvania Dutch, it is a fact that in the English of the 18th and 19th centuries, the word "Dutch" referred to anyone from a wide range of Germanic regions, places that we now distinguish as the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. At that time "Dutch" was a broader term that meant what we today call Flemish, Dutch or German. The terms "High Dutch" (German) and "Low Dutch" (Dutch, "nether" means "low") were used to make a clearer distinction between what we now call German (from Latin) or Dutch (from Old High German).


Not all Pennsylvania Germans are Amish. Although they are the best known group, the Amish make up only a small portion of the Pennsylvania Germans in the state. Other groups include the Mennonites, the Brethren, and sub-groups within each group, many of whom use cars and electricity.


It is also easy to forget that Germany (Deutschland) did not exist as a single nation state until 1871. Prior to that time, Germany was more like a quiltwork of duchies, kingdoms and states where various German dialects were spoken. The settlers of the Pennsylvania German region came from the Rhineland, Switzerland, Tyrol, and various other regions beginning in 1689. The Amish, Hutterites and Mennonites now located in the eastern counties of Pennsylvania and elsewhere in North America did not really come from "Germany" in the modern sense of the word, so it is not entirely accurate to refer to them as "German" either. However, they did bring their German dialects with them, and in modern English it is best to refer to this ethnic group as Pennsylvania Germans. Calling them Pennsylvania Dutch is misleading to speakers of modern English. Despite the fact that Lancaster County and various tourism agencies keep using the "quaint" term "Pennsylvania Dutch" on their Web sites and promotional materials, and despite the fact that some Pennsylvania Germans prefer the "Dutch" term, why perpetuate something that contradicts the fact that the Pennsylvania Germans are linguistically German, not Dutch? Support for this opinion can be seen in the name of the Pennsylvania German Cultural Heritage Center at Kutztown University. This organization, dedicated to the preservation of the Pennsylvania German language and culture, uses the word "German" rather than "Dutch" in its name. Since "Dutch" no longer means what it did in the 1700s and is very misleading, it's more appropriate to replace it with "German."

As usual, Kim, you have enlightened me. So much so that I could easily pass for some Christmas decoration ;-)

Posting it here too.

Marry Christmas everyone!

Don't really know where to post this, but I found it on Twitter. It's Campbell Playhouse's Orson Wells presents . . . A Christmas Carol starring Lionel Barrymore as Scrooge. Apologies if this has already been posted. Perhaps this should be moved somewhere else?

Download options are on the right

https://archive.org/details/CampbellP...

Tristram wrote: "Kim wrote: "Oh, and the term Grump could apply to more than one of you. :-} "

Maybe we can run a competition in 2014 of who is the grumpiest grump of all Grumpendom?"

If you're going to set up a Merry Christmas thread in 2016, too, there's no point in bothering with a contest. By even considering same, you forfeit your right to Grumpiest.

Christine wrote: "By definition grumpy people are ....largely quiet ..."

Oh, yeah, that's me to a T. Quiet. Especially here. Quiet, quiet, quiet.

Just like the many mice in Kim's Christmas houses. They're quiet, too, according to the book.

Merry Christmas to you all. I have only recently taken part in discussions on here but have found them to be insightful and have increased my enjoyment of the novels written by my favourite author. And you're all so nice too!

I'm currently watching the BBC drama 'Dickensian' which is quite good really. So far we have had characters from Oliver Twist, A Christmas Carol, Great Expectations, Pickwick, The Old Curiosity Shop, Our Mutual Friend, and the mention of Bleak House's Tulkinghorn all meeting up on the snowy streets of London. Wondering what Dickens would make of it all!