Glens Falls (NY) Online Book Discussion Group discussion

Joy, I like your reasons for 'Goodbye'.
Another thing you wrote, about not being able to appreciate what's considered good literature, I'm the same and I don't care that I don't agree with those who like it. I'm not knocking their tastes, they just aren't mine. I like to be swept away, carried off into the story, basically, I want to be fully engaged and entertained and much of 'good literature' doesn't have that ability.

Jackie, I'm glad you see my point and feel the same.

I often wonder about the standards for "good literature". I think I can recognize "bad literature" when I see it but I'll never understand why impenetrable literature is so often considered "good literature". For example, one fellow told me he had to read the book 3 times before it made any sense. And yet the book has won awards and is considered "good literature".

I am the same on that point too! It'd have to be really bad with poor grammar, misspellings and incoherent sentence structure, for me to think it's bad literature. I'm not really looking for literature, maybe that's why I don't recognize it or don't like it when I do find it. Case in point, we were talking about S King earlier, those awful tomes I was telling you about, many people say that with those books he has now become 'literary', whatever than means, except for the obvious: boring.
I don't know how people enjoy some books or what makes them award winners. I'm just glad it's not me suffering through them.

Jackie, I consider it bad literature when writing sounds sophomoric. For example, Nicholas Spark's book, Message in a Bottle, seemed very amateurish to me. It was cringe-inducing. The author's books are best-sellers because his plots are good but the writing leaves much to be desired, IMO. They are also overly sentimental at times. But some people love 'em! Same for books by Danielle Steele.

I've read both of those authors, I agree. I guess I do know some bad literature, lol Then again, I wouldn't call either's works 'literature'.

Jackie wrote: "... I wouldn't call either's works 'literature'."

But it's getting them the money! LOL

And that's good too. They have an audience, so someone likes their work.

Danielle Steele is an author who's never interested me personally enough to try her work. (I tend to either avoid the whole romance genre, or dabble in it very cautiously.) But I did really like Sparks' A Walk to Remember. (My review is here, if anyone's interested: www.goodreads.com/review/show/15571011 .) He doesn't follow the usual romance formula in this novel, which added to its appeal for me; so it may not be typical of his work as a whole.

I liked that one, and The Notebook. Both were for what the story represented, not the writing. When I enjoy a story I don't think I care about the writing itself. I'm not a fan of romance either, so I have to give Sparks credit for getting me to like 2 romance type books.

Werner, I haven't read _A Walk to Remember_. Perhaps I will try it to find out if my evaluation of Sparks' writing remains true in that book. See my evaluation in my review of _Message in a Bottle_ at: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Jackie, I care about the writing level of the books I read. That's important to me. (I am not speaking of children's books or YA books.) I cringe when the level goes too low. That adds another requirement to the list I started above. I require a good writing style.

A list of my reading requirements for fiction books would include:
1. comprehensibility
2. characters I care about
3. themes I enjoy
4. a good writing style

Number 4 is just as important to me as the other 3.

A GR member made the following comment to my GR review of Spark's _Message in a Bottle_:
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"...some of the descriptions are simplistic, "he felt like he was 16"--"she looked like a model"--"Something about her"--"something about him". ..."
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The above are a good examples of the type of lackluster writing which I dislke and find unpleasant to read.

For me, it's important that a writer have a good grasp of how to properly use language: grammar, punctuation, accurate use of vocabulary, clear communication of meaning, intelligent syntax. (Those things can't be taken for granted anymore when we open up a book! :-) ) Given those basics, though, I can appreciate a range of styles; but the style needs to be appropriate to the type of work it is and to the author's intention.

There are a lot of writers who I think don't really have any stylistic particularity or distinctiveness; they just write in pretty much normal, unremarkable diction that doesn't draw attention to itself, so the reader's whole attention can be on the story. (That, I think, looks at what Jackie was getting at in message 109, but from the writer's end.) That's not a bad stylistic strategy, IMO, and it's especially appropriate for stories where the plot itself has a lot of intrinsic interest, and flows fairly quickly.

Werner, I understand what you're saying. Contemporary language is OK if it's used well. I guess it's all a matter of how the writing style makes you feel. What's cringe-worthy for one person may not be cringe-worthy for another. :)

I agree completely, Werner. Odd styles can sometimes enhance a story, but more often detract from it.

Two books I think I have mentioned before are to me perfect examples of very good writing. "Claire of the Sea Light," by Edwidge Danicat and "Mr. Penubra's 24 hour Bookstore," by Robun Sloan. Both of these books had interesting characters; good setting and as I said excellent writing.

Claire of the Sea Light --- by Edwidge Danticat
Mr. Penumbra's 24-Hour Bookstore --- by Robin Sloan

Thanks, Nina.

We've been talking about good writing and various writing styles. It would be nice if we could discuss exactly what good writing is, and if we could define the various writing styles. But I'm afraid it's too difficult to do online. A face-to-face discussion would be fun.

As with all discussions, we really need to define our terms. Seems that we could write a book about that alone. I'm sure there are plenty of books which do just that but I'm not about to read them. LOL I'll just stick with the "I-know-what-I-like" chain of thought. Not very deep but meaningful to me.

Joy, three suggestions for judging a book; Does the beginning "catch" you? Does the middle of the book still hold your interest; doesn't sag? and is the ending satisfying to you? I was in a critique writing class for over ten years and it was so interesting. Our leader was, at that time, a well known children's author. Some of the participants went on to published novels, poetry books etc. Jule Garwood was on of them. I never had a pubished novel to my credit but did manage to have several writing credits from anthologies, magazines and newspapers and literary magazines and other publications. It was a rewarding experience and now the book club I belong to is comprised of those persons are writers. We critique from that vantage point.

Nina, those are good suggestions for judging a good story but do they mention judging good writing? As I see it, a good story and good writing are actually two different things.

PS-A good story is easy to recognize and define. Not so with good writing. Everyone seems to have a different opinion about what makes good writing.

As a basis to start from, I think Nina started it well, but 'good' writing is a personal preference in many cases. What causes my eyes to glaze is delightful to others.

I can't stand stream-of-consciousness. I want definition in the mechanics. Werner mentioned punctuation, accurate use of vocabulary, clear communication of meaning, intelligent syntax. He also said grammar, but I'm a bit more lenient on that. I can't tell if a dash, colon, or semicolon should be used half the time & I've decided that commas are more a matter of taste. Oh, they can be misused, but they don't bother me too much.

I believe he was referring to self-published books when he said we can't take them for granted any more, but I have my pet peeves & even the big publishers can ignore the rules. 'Decimate' is a word that should always mean 1/10th, never a larger number.

Oooops. Have to run.

From my perspective, it goes without saying that the following are usually the fundamental requirements for good writing:
correct punctuation; accurate use of vocabulary; proper syntax and grammar.

However, "good writing" goes beyond that.

Writers should know the above fundamental rules for the above. Those who know the rules can then break them for effect, as e.e. cummings does in his poems.

Good writing includes the fundamental requirements but the definition of good writing goes BEYOND the fundamentals. That's why I say we have to define our terms. Beyond the fundamentals, what is "good writing"?

As far as "stream of consciousness" goes, that's a writing style. It's difficult to say whether a style is "good" or "bad". It's just another style. It seems to me that it's the critics and the judges who give out the awards who are the ones who decide what's good or bad.

After that, for many readers, it's a case of "The-Emperor's-New-Clothes".

The ordinary person is caught in the middle somewhere.

More about good writing: this is from someone I consider a good writer. She is a writing friend of mine and has had, not self published, three novels published, besides scores of poems. I quote: "Good writing needs metaphor and aimiles. I think one strong adjective before a noun is better than two adjectives. I like to see dialogue included along with strong sense of setting. The words you choose to use will bring your writing to life. I like sentences to vary in length. I prefer not to populate my writing with an abundant use of words like: are, is, had,was. Strong verbs energize writing. I like writing that finds a way to incorporate the senses. Let your voice be heard with the way you choose to write. However never bleed on the page."

Nina, that's great. Now we're getting down to specifics! Thanks!

I am reading "Winter's Tale" by Mark Helprin. I saw the preview for the film on TV and really thought the book would be great! So far it is magical and one that I just can not put down! There are so many literary elements I could spend days picking it apart. So much alliteration in it, metaphor, simile, and foreshadowing. I love to go through and note them when I see them! It like I am back in english class again! Does anyone else do this?

Breaking rules for effect is sometimes OK, but it can easily be overdone. When it becomes work to flow with the story, fiction books often lose me.

Different rules for fiction & nonfiction, although I sure prefer when the latter is interesting & well written. Unfortunately, too much of what I read is bone dry, interesting only for the subject matter.

I agree with Nina's friend. Roger Zelazny wrote something similar about descriptions. I think he said he never mentioned more than a few things about a character in a paragraph & filled in more as needed, but he always keeps the story moving. He never over-described common objects, either. I really appreciate that. Stephen King lost me years ago when he started spending entire paragraphs & pages doing so.

Jim wrote: "Breaking rules for effect is sometimes OK, but it can easily be overdone. When it becomes work to flow with the story, fiction books often lose me.

Different rules for fiction & nonfiction, altho..."I agree with Jim about Stephen King. And as I posted on here before this, If Barbara Kingslover had written, "Flight Behavior," first and "The Poisonwood Bible," the latter would never have been published. Some authors get by on what came first. Does anyone agree with me?

Absolutely, Nina. It's pretty obvious that some authors aren't edited at all any more.

Melissa wrote: "I am reading "Winter's Tale" by Mark Helprin. I saw the preview for the film on TV and really thought the book would be great! So far it is magical and one that I just can not put down! There are s..."

Melissa, thanks for mentioning Winter's Tale. As I've mentioned in another reply to you here, I've put the book on my to-read shelf. I've also saved the 2014 film adaptation of this book to my Netflix queue. The cast includes Colin Farrell and Russell Crowe!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1837709/?...
http://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/Winter-s...

As for saving similes, yes I do save them! In fact we have a topic in the group about similes. See it at:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

We also have a topic about metaphors. See it at:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Yes, Jim, there are different rules for fiction and non-fiction. Of course, my comments above about writing styles, etc. refer to the fiction genre.

Nina wrote: "... Some authors get by on what came first. Does anyone agree with me?"

Yes, Nina, it's always a disappointment when a book by a celebrated author doesn't live up to his/her other books.

This was true of two books by Larry McMurtry, who is known for his Pulitzer Prize-winning 1985 novel Lonesome Dove. I read one of his other books, Loop Group, which was was very disappointing, especially since his Lonesome Dove had won the Pulitzer Prize before Loop Group.

The writing in Loop Group was almost sophomoric and the story was stultifying. I finished it only because I was wondering how it would end. Even the ending was disappointing. It was as if the author couldn't think of a better ending and wound things up quickly to finish writing.

Throughout the book, there was a lot of boring, uninspired dialogue between two female friends about nothing very special, IMO. Not much action either... just a road trip to visit an eccentric aunt. She was the most entertaining character.

All the other characters, besides the two friends, were not fully developed. The two friends were rather ordinary, nothing very clever about them.

I recently listened to To Build a Fire and Other Stories by Jack London & reviewed it here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

While it was very good, the stories were pretty depressing, so I countered that by listening to Dave Barry Is Not Making This Up which was hilarious. My review is here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Jim wrote: "I believe he was referring to self-published books when he said we can't take them for granted anymore...." No, Jim, actually I wasn't --or rather, I was including some (not all!) self-published books in that comment, if the authors are clueless about language mechanics and the books never been vetted or proofread by anybody; but I also had in mind books being turned out by both large and small publishers. That's part of the postmodern decline of overall literacy, the felt imperative in Big (and sometimes small) Business to cut overhead by sacrificing quality, and the general cultural trend towards abandonment of any standards that call for effort on anybody's part.

"Stream of consciousness" writing originated around 1920 as an avant-garde, "experimental" form of extreme Realism, promoted by writers who maintained that the way that humans actually experience the world is through a jumble of incoherent impressions, and that fiction should reflect this. But common-sense observation would suggest that we actually organize our impressions much more coherently than this assumes, and that our brains crave organization and coherence. After nearly 100 years, we can safely pronounce the "experiment" to have been a failure; but there are still writers who haven't gotten that memo. :-(

I wonder why Jack London made his storis so depressing. I scanned his bio at Wiki but couldn't find anything about that. Perhaps he had seen a lot of sad things and just wrote about them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_London

Werner is right about our brains craving "organization and coherence". In fact that's why our dreams are often so strange. What happens is that while we sleep our brains fire off random images or thoughts. Our brains don't like random thinking. So the brain tries to organize the random thoughts into some sort of logic, connecting all the random thoughts into a pattern of thought. Ergo, we get strange dreams.

I read or heard that somewhere a while ago. It makes sense to me.

I finished Joyland, it was good. I'll be starting Wonderstruck, interesting concept, 2 stories, one in print, one in pictures, that will merge at some point...or so the dust jacket says. We shall see....

It' amazes me how many times Big 6 books are almost as poorly edited as self-published, so I see your point, Werner.

Yeah, they really do need to get the memo on stream-of-consciousness. It's OK in small doses, but just annoying after a page or so. Several pages just become too much like work for me.

Joy H. wrote: "I wonder why Jack London made his storis so depressing. I scanned his bio at Wiki but couldn't find anything about that. Perhaps he had seen a lot of sad things and just wrote about them...."

That & he drank a lot. Booze is a depressant. I think it showed in his writing overall.

He really did see a lot of nastiness & the realism pours from his stories whether they're in the South Pacific, the frozen north, or the city street. His characters have no safety net & display understandable, but ultimately ruinous traits such as overconfidence or short sightedness.

One story is about a boxer who is trying to feed his kids, but is broke. They go hungry so he can have the best dinner he can afford - very little - & thus have the strength to win his fight or the entire family will be far hungrier shortly.

Many are shaped by hard times & some aren't the better for it. Others are just victims of a very harsh, unforgiving world. He died pretty young, in his 40's.

The stories show colonialism at its worst, especially in the south seas. The islanders are simply niggers: a life form that was only vaguely human, often cannibalistic, treated & trusted less than dogs. They're aliens due to their culture, animals when they get in the way, & as handy tools otherwise.

I never got the feeling that this was London's view of any natives, just that of his characters, the norm for the time & place. One 'humorous' story could certainly be read as a scathing denouncement of the Colonial rulers. It fell flat as humor & was just fairly nasty. Even in one of the few stories I remember where the white man wasn't a complete ass, the ending was depressing.

For all the racism, women are surprisingly hardy in his writing. Not tough in a manly way, but self reliant & able, even when the men try to treat them as if they're not. In The Sea Wolf as well as other stories, he makes a point of how different & soft the rich are compared to the poor & natives.

I wonder if that hard-hitting realism was part of what made him so popular. As is obvious from the above, attitudes have changed a lot, so the stories are a bit more depressing now than they were most of a century ago.

There's an online sample of _Wonderstruck_ here:
https://play.google.com/books/reader?...
No pics though.
The following GR review has 3 illustrations. They're lovely.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Jim, re Jack London's depressing themes, I'm thankful that we live now and not then. Although in some countries things are just as bad nowadays, if not worse. So I'm also thankful that we live where we do. However, our current culture seems to breed depression in many people. Life isn't perfect yet! :)

I consider many books that are published never have seen an editor: "Chicken Soup for the Soul," is a prime example. They spelled Mother Teresa's name wrong on two different pages. I think it's my age as I see many of these types of mistakes. I think people assume they know and never bother to check.

I know I'm spreading myself out too thin, but I can't help it. I need diversion. When one story starts to get tiring, I switch to another. I go back and forth between the books. Currently I'm going back and forth between at least 3 books:

Vermilion (1981) by Phyllis A. Whitney. This is sort of a low-key mystery. This author can usually be depended on for a good story. A magazine ad says: "Romantic suspense at its wildest and most whimsical!" Well, it hasn't gotten that WILD yet! LOL

The Affair by Colette Freedman. I just got this one from the library. I had seen a GR ad for the follow-up to this book, The Consequences. So I decided to start with the first one. The hook is in. Let's hope it stays.

Billy Bathgate by E.L. Doctorow. Yes, I still haven't given up on this one. Doctorow's skill with words is like a magnet but the words take an effort to digest at times, due to things like long sentences. The book has been adapted to film and stars Dustin Hoffman. The film's on my Netflix DVD queue.

I just finished listening to Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat: Why It's So Hard to Think Straight About Animals by Hal Herzog, a psychologist & anthrozoologist. It's a nonfiction book about how we think about animals & some of the reasons why. He's not trying to convert anyone, but he does mention some of his personal decisions. I gave it 5 stars as an audio book, but want better access to some of his longer discussions & numbers, so I'm buying it in paper format. Yeah, I liked it that much & highly recommend it to everyone. A lot applies to how we look at other aspects of the world, too.

My review is here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Jim wrote: "I just finished listening to Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat: Why It's So Hard to Think Straight About Animals by Hal Herzog, a psychologist & anthrozoologis..."

Wow, Jim, that's some heavy stuff! Moral dilemmas are exhausting. Perhaps that's why so many people use the "out of sight, out of mind" strategy. The world is too messy. Reality stinks.

Thanks for the link in your review to "The Trolley Problem". Reminds me of a quote I just picked up from The Affair: "Sometimes doing nothing is a decision too." (p.34, paperback edition)

Wonderland was fantastic, such a unique concept. I started The Prince and the Pilgrim, a side story in Mary Stewart's Athurian series. It's good but nowhere near as good as the first 3 books of the Arthur novels.

Jackie, by now, you must be an expert on Arthurian legends. FunTrivia recently had a question about Lancelot's son, Galahad. I didn't even know he had a son. LOL

From Wiki: "King Pelles wanted Sir Lancelot to marry his daughter Elaine, and tricked him into believing Elaine was Guenevere with a magic potion. Lancelot awoke to find Elaine in his bed, and not Guinevere. He knew he had been tricked, apologised to Elaine and bade her farewell. Elaine later gave birth to a son she called Galahad."
FROM: http://www.sir-lancelot.co.uk/elaine.htm

I've read a lot of Arthurian sagas, but they're all different. The players often change positions in the plot and subplots. That's why I like them, so much variation on an old theme, it doesn't get old.

Today I finished listening to the following unabridged audio book: Stumbling on Happiness (2006) by Daniel Gilbert.
See my review here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

There are a lot of insights in this book, ideas which we may consider obvious and other ideas which are counter-intuituive and don't come naturally to us. It's an interesting look into the way our minds work.

The author uses various scientific studies to prove his points. Sometimes it takes quite a bit of concentration to understand his wordy, but clear, explanations.

RE: Animals in Translation: Using the Mysteries of Autism to Decode Animal Behavior by Temple Grandin

I plan to listen to an audio version of the above book soon via audible.com. A short audio sample can be heard here: http://www.audible.com/pd/Science-Tec...

A GR reviewer wrote that the first part of _Stumbling on Happiness_ reminded him of some of the material covered in _Animals In Translation_ . He said: "The word "animals" is in the title, but the reader learns a lot about human behavior from this book.

Jim, I think you'd enjoy hearing the short sample which includes comments about horses who were behavior problems.

"A room without books is like a body without a soul." Cicero/Joy, I am reading a book you'd like, I think. I guess if you read it that would make four books at a time; "Lucia, Lucia," by Adriana Trigiani. The setting is Greenwich Village in the fifties and also concerns B. Altman's.

I am currently on a science fiction binge this year. I have started a new series---Grimspace.

So far it is quite good. One other thing attracted me to it---it is a closed series and all six books are completed now. So I can read the saga and not be waiting to see how it ends.

Joy H. wrote: "RE: Animals in Translation: Using the Mysteries of Autism to Decode Animal Behavior by Temple Grandin.."

I'll see if my library has a copy. Thanks!