Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion

I'm sure everyone has watched Ray Comfort and his television show "Way of the Master" (if you haven't, please do); one common theme that he usually hits on is idolatry. Usually after talking with for some time, he'll usually get them backed into a corner and tells them that they're idolatrous because the individual is making God into their own image, rather than the opposite; especially when the person's belief in God is contrary to the Bible. Kyle Idleman wrote (and created a video study program) a book titled "gods at war," and his thesis is that when we turn to something, not God, in a time of need; we turn it into an idol, which in turn, becomes a "god" to us. What are your thoughts? Has idolatry returned? I personally believe it has, especially with the current issues in Oklahoma and the Ten Commandment statues.

My thoughts are idolatry has never left us so it's hardly making a comeback.

Great point. We all turn to idols everyday, to a degree. However, you have to decipher if you're in the Comfort crowd of idols or in the Idleman camp. There is also a third camp, one that follows Dr. Greg Boyd's thought that we're, in futility, constantly trying to force nationalism/politics side-by-side with Christianity.

I enjoy some of Ray Comforts efforts. Occasionally I find him annoying. (But I find myself rather annoying at times also..)

I find it comical that people will do absolutely anything so they don't have to accept the God of the Bible. Same as the Israelites and the Golden Cafe.

I do enjoy Comfort and yes he can be a little annoying, but to his credit, at least he is out there. But he does make a great point, and it's something that I've caught myself doing, there are folks who do mix and mold God to conform into who they think God is, or ought to be. This is that I've noticed on several levels. For example, folks usually comb through the bible to support their view of God, like Greg Boyd and his opentheism. Turning to Idleman's view, as I've already posted, we are apt to turn to things, people, or behaviors to comfort us when we're stressed or in times of need. Also, mini/false gods have been created as a result of these two forms of idolatry.

Robert wrote: "My thoughts are idolatry has never left us so it's hardly making a comeback."

Great reply Robert and very true. Idolatry has been around forever. Also, I tend to shy away from "them, we, us", etc.; pronouns such as these plural ones. I like "he, she, I, me", etc.

I believe many people have idolatry in their lives and don't even know it. Watching TV all day instead of being in God's Word for some portion of the day is a form of idolatry.

One has to be very careful in their lives that nothing comes before God. NOTHING, not even your children. This does not mean you ignore your kids so you can read God's Word. When they are young, God understands that we have to read His Word when it is convenient according to a little one's schedule.

Everything in this world belongs to God. That even means technology. God has given the brains to people to be so tech wise. They do not do this on their own. Plus everything that we make all things out of are gifts from God. He has given generously to those who figured out throughout all the years just how to put their God given brains into action. Same with medicine. Research and medicine all comes from brains God has given; blessings and gifts. However, there are those who use these things in wicked ways, as we all know. There is wickedness in all aspects of life.

Here is where idolatry of money comes in. People making and profiting from the brains God gave them use them to make more and more money and to try to increase their own power in life. They dismiss the fact that God is head of all. He created this world and everything in it and it ALL belongs to God. There is nothing anyone can take with them out of this world. You'll never see a U-Haul behind a hearse.

To the best of my knowledge, I can take an inventory of myself and can't find idolatry. There is no person, place, or thing that comes before God in my world. This is all His Creation and His to do with as He sees fit, or as He pleases. This does not mean I am sinless. Oh my, I am certainly not saying that. I confess my sins to God everyday and repent of them. One thing that worries me about repentance though is that to me I'm saying I am going to change my ways. But what about the things that may just come out of your mouth and your sorry for them, such as "oh s---". I can tell God I am sorry and say I repent of it but isn't that lying when it may happen again because it is something that happens so quickly? Am I lying to God if I say I repent of that sin but then it happens again?

Think of it as God's great big toy. Of course that's not what it is because God gave us free will because He wants to be loved by people by their own choosing. He doesn't want to force someone to love Him. No one wants anyone to love them because they have to. We all want the love of others to flow freely from them because they truly love us, not because they are made to.

Well, I guess I got carried away here but I think that may be OK. I never mind hearing things more than once. It feeds the soul. I mean, you don't eat meat, potatoes, vegetables, or fruits once in your life. We have to keep feeding our bodies. The same goes for our souls. They need nourishing more importantly than our bodies. Thanks all!!

Anthonywilson wrote: "I'm sure everyone has watched Ray Comfort and his television show "Way of the Master" (if you haven't, please do); one common theme that he usually hits on is idolatry. Usually after talking with f..."

Anthony, when I think of turning to something in time of need, I think of turning to something which God has given me. It depends upon what need we are talking about.

First I believe whatever we turn to is something God has given to us to turn to because He loves us. Say for instance if you are in a car accident you go to the ER. The ER is made possible via God. If one is conscious, I certainly think they should pray; absolutely! But people aren't always conscious.

Some people have debated over depression and if this is a weakness of one's faith. There were people in the Bible who suffered depression; Job for one. I have disabilities and an illness there is no cure for and I have had trouble with depression.

We recently had 3 interim Pastors while we were waiting for one to answer our Call and I asked each one of them if my getting depressed meant that my faith in Jesus Christ was weak. All 3 of them said no. All 3 of them said that each of our brains are complex and different from each others and the chemistry is different as well. God even tells us in the Bible to turn our anxieties over to Him.

1 Peter 5:7
Cast all your anxiety on Him because He cares for you.

More on anxiety:

Ezekiel 12:19
Say to the people of the land: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says about those living in Jerusalem and in the land of Israel: They will eat their food in anxiety and drink their water in despair, for their land will be stripped of everything in it because of the violence of all who live there.

...and there are more too.

Also, read my reply to Roberts Comment.

God knows our needs. If you get diabetes or some other illness, would you not seek a DR. for treatment and only pray to God? Praying is the highest most powerful thing you can do for yourself, but don't forget who put Drs. in their place here on Earth and gave them all the gifts they have.

These things we turn to are not necessarily things of idolatrous. They may be gifts which God has given us. My depression has been treated. I believe that is because God gave someone the brains to figure out how parts of the brain and its chemicals function. God sent me to where I went before I got too seriously depressed.

Idolatry is worshiping anything besides God, right? And worship is just excessive reverence. Which of the following would you consider idolatry?

Worshiping a favorite pastor
Worshiping the Bible
Worshiping any of the Bible's characters or writers
Worshiping a church building
Worshiping Mary or a saint

Of course, "excessive reverence" is quite subjective. ;)

Lee - somehow you forgot worshipping compassion.

oh, that's not idolatry, cuz God is love.

Robert's comment may be valid, or at least thought-provoking. I'm reminded of this book:

http://www.dubiousdisciple.com/2012/1...

Lee - I agree, the goings-on at a modern church just resemble flattery (hymn singing) and bribery (collection plate). Which does leave us in a conundrum - How do we appropriately worship God and His Son? I suppose if one is lucky enough to have a relationship with the Almighty where his prayers are answered in a way he can use them in an actionable manner, then he's set - he is certain his decisions are smiled upon and his day-to-day living glorifies God. I'm not so fortunate. Sure, I pray, but either the answers don't come or they come in indecipherable riddles. That leaves this Christian with but one choice - to believe the Bible is the Word of God and follow its maxims as God reveals them to me. Does that make me a Bible Idolator? I guess so - guilty as charged.

Many modern wannabe Christians really worship humanity and it's potential greatness. They just poorly say "it's in Jesus name."

Lee, in the Bible it says we are to sing praises to God. Also, tithing is not bribery. Someone has to support the Church. Everyone wants a church but it seems n one wants to help fund it. I'm talking a neighborhood church now, not mega churches.

Even in the Bible where the Christian Church began in the Book of Acts, believers were giving to help the Apostles to support themselves. Otherwise, how would they have lived? They gave to the poor as well. It's all in Acts.

Judy - tithing is one thing. "Special" collections for every cause under the sun, many of them highly questionable as to Biblical connectivity, are quite another. I like how you blamed my post on Lee - keep up the good work, Judy.

Rod - what "potential greatness" are you referring to - the great expanse of their perverse wants and desires?

Judy, I'm not following how singing praises or tithing fits into the conversation. Help me out here.

A certain amount of reverence is proper. I guess I'm asking whether we can give too much reverence to the church, to the Bible, to the pastor, etc. thus turning these things into an idol.

Rod is right that you can turn humanity (humanism) into an idol. It's probably called pantheism, and the Bible would say this is idol worship. I'm not yet convinced about Robert's concept of turning compassion into an idol, it's hard to imagine having too much reverence for compassion given the example Jesus left.

Robert wrote: "Judy - tithing is one thing. "Special" collections for every cause under the sun, many of them highly questionable as to Biblical connectivity, are quite another. I like how you blamed my post on L..."

Robert, first I wasn't trying to blame anyone for I am far from knowing it all. I was just adding to it. But your welcome anyway.

Yes, tithing and what you speak of are 2 different things...and the only Church I can think of that does the charging for others is the Catholic denomination.

They charge you to pay for a Mass for a dead person, which does no good anyway because we are judged when we die, not years later.


Hebrews 9:27 (NIV)


27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,



Matthew 25:31-46 (NIV)


The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


Plus the Catholic Church charges for what they call indulgences; a way to get someone out of so called purgatory early. I was Catholic as a child and we had to pay to light a candle for the dead, which again, does them no good.

I don't know what else they may charge for but this is truly criminal when the Bible plainly says we are judged when we die, immediately, not later.

The Church I belong to asks for nothing extra. They pass the basket once during the service and that's all. By the way, our Church does not believe in begging for money or cheating people out of it by making them think they can do something for their dead loved one. It is so much appreciated that one day an elderly man came in with $100,000. CASH in a box to give to the Church.

There is only one chance for God's mercy, we don't get a second chance by being in purgatory while He makes up His mind what He is going to do with a soul. This is ridiculous.

Judy,

Don't forget that the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints charge as well. They run routine tithe checks to make sure they get their 10%.

I've seen the t-shirts. "Club Mormon: 10% and you're in"

Lee wrote: "Idolatry is worshiping anything besides God, right? And worship is just excessive reverence. Which of the following would you consider idolatry?

Worshiping a favorite pastor
Worshiping the Bible
W..."

Lee,

I don't worship my pastor(although there are many who do). However, I do have an extreme level of respect for several pastors, simply because they've helped me understand certain topics of the Bible.

I don't worship the bible. If my Bible falls off the table, I don't grab it and kiss it (like the Jews do). Also, I don't throw a fit when people mark in theirs.


I don't worship the building where we meet. I the respect the building like I respect my home.

As far as Mary and Saints go, well, I'm not Catholic or Orthodox; so these two areas aren't even on my radar.

Judy wrote: "Anthonywilson wrote: "I'm sure everyone has watched Ray Comfort and his television show "Way of the Master" (if you haven't, please do); one common theme that he usually hits on is idolatry. Usuall..."

Judy,

I'm glad you've found someone who can help you and will keep your best interests at heart. I carry the same view as you do. Praying first has been something that I've learn, I've always been an "act first and pray when everything falls apart" type of guy. I am reminded of a story.

A massive flood ravaged a town and everyone climbed to their roofs for safety. One man cried out "God help me!" Moments later, I neighbor floated by on a raft and said "Hop on the water is rising." The man replied, "God will help me!" After a few minutes a boat full of firemen stopped and said "Get on!" The man replied "I am waiting on God." The water rose more and the man said "God help me!" As soon as he said that a helicopter flew by and said "Grab the ladder!" The man said "NO!" The water rose and the man started to drown and be cried "Why didn't you help me!?!" suddenly he heard a voice that said: "I did, I sent a raft, a boat, and finally a helicopter."

It's funny. This idolatry deal... And by "funny" I mean interesting. I agree it never went anywhere, but with how taboo Christianity is becoming, folks are taking to idolatry quite easily. I can't tell you how many people I know that worship themselves, their sexual orientations, or their dog... It does seem as though its becoming widely acceptable, just like every other sin.

Worship their dog? What do they do, give Rover the steak off their plate?

worshiping oneself seems quite common, alright.

Worshiping sexual orientation? Would that be like people who elevate one orientation above another?

Kris - I agree with your list and Lee knows exactly what you are talking about. He just likes to lie in the weeds until you focus on one of his pet idols, then he bursts out in a hail of indignation. Tolerance of sin has become an idol all of it's own under the guise of being nondiscriminatory and nonjudgemental. Funny how we are taught to make intelligent, responsible choices, but then must toss them all out the window when it comes to people's behavior.

Robert, I'll believe your bigotry is derived from an intolerance of sin the day you picket Red Lobster for serving shellfish.

I think our definition of idolatry has morphed into something unrecognizable. Next, somebody will claim that scotch tape is an idol because Richard Dawkins was seen with a roll.

Lee - why don't you define bigotry for me - I think your definition includes anyone who doesn't share your particular brand of tolerance based upon your misinterpretation of the Bible (and Gospels, since you irrationally insist on separating the two).

The definition of bigotry has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or the Bible. But many people do claim to excuse their bigotry through religious belief. I just don't buy it ... unless I can tell the person is genuinely sorry that their religious belief forces them to be intolerant.

big·ot·ry [big-uh-tree] Show IPA
noun, plural big·ot·ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

Synonyms
1. narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination.

Well, that settles it - everyone on this board is a bigot - now we can move on.

Perhaps. Hopefully, we're all doing our Christian best to overcome it, though.

Maybe you are, Lee, I'm doing my best to hone it to a fine art!

This is getting off topic and yet it's on topic. Do we become what the bible says what we should become? Or does the bible become what we say it should become? Rather than let the text(s) speak for its self and seek guidance from God (yes I'm slowly becoming what I've despised) we tend to run the bible through our own opinions so we can keep our preconceived notions about the world.

Good question Anthony.

We should indeed spend our lives directing our desires to be the same as God's. Everything for HIS Glory.

Many religious people want the Bible to be about THEIR Glory. This is incredibly unbiblical. Yet people keep doing it. They attempt to make everything Jesus said about people and not about his saving grace and eternal Kingdom.

Anthonywilson wrote: "Judy,

Don't forget that the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints charge as well. They run routine tithe checks to make sure they get their 10%."

I don't know why but it always annoys me when bible thumpers start bashing other Christian religions, as if their s*** don't stink. As someone who was raised Mormon, you can go to church every week and never pay tithing. Tithing is only required to enter the temple. And since everyone in Mormon theology goes to heaven anyways, just different parts, at least they don't have the hypocrisy of saying god loves everyone while at the same time sending most of those people to a never ending fiery hell.

You are partially correct Guillermo. I won't spoil it and say which part though. :D

Sorry, guys, but I'm bailing on this group. If we were discussing points of incoherence or non-correspondence in a particular worldview, we might have something to discuss as intelligent human beings. But broad brush strokes do not paint an accurate image of anyone. I adhere to the Christian worldview and make no apologies for that because the deeper I dug into the cultural context of the Biblical text, to learn what is actually taught, the more I realized that I was getting intellectually satisfying answers to my questions, including the existential ones. In this group, I see questions being stated as if some great truth is being presented, when, in reality, it was only a question that still needed an answer, but no one was giving an answer of substance. I wish you all well and hope your search for truth takes you to it but, honestly, I don't think the approach this group has taken will help anyone do anything other than bandy their own biases. I don't mean to offend anyone in the group and I sincerely hope you will consider a change in direction, tone, and in the depth of your discussions.

All the best, H.L.!

Thataboy H.L. - contribute absolutely nothing and then criticize; I'm sure you'll be a really valued member on whichever board has the misfortune of landing you.

^ haha

I doubt HL will read this, but Robert summed it up. It is hard to take seriously a first comment that says you don't like how the group goes. It is the same as when your first comment is just a pitch for us to read your book...come on.

I've said it a bunch of times - we have had many book discussions where we join together to read a book, including some by the top apologists around (Plantinga). If you don't suggest books to read or read the books we read then I don't really think you have a place to complain. And for every discussion thread I find pointless and irrelevant, I find many that are quite good. We have threads on nearly every topic.

Question about idolatry in general, if we can get back to what is and is not idolatry.

When the Septuagint was written, translating from Hebrew to Greek in the second century BC, we find a few subtle changes. Like this one:

For all the gods of the nations are demons: but the LORD made the heavens. --Psalm 96:5

This originally said "idols," not "demons." The gods were no longer dismissed, but demonized. Paul embraced the demons idea: competing gods were demons, not idols. See 1 cor 10:20-21.

Should we, when we use the phrase idolatry, recognize that idols are now understood to be not powerless statues but living demons?

If we worship our dog (I still don't get that) do we turn Rover into a living demon? If we worship our Bible, does that make it a living demon?

There are four Hebrew words that are translated "idol," Lee. LXX shift marked clarification into Greek, since some idols were just wood (teraphim, etc), but some were recognized as demonic entities "of the nations." Paul expresses the concern that pagan's were getting spiritual manifestations out of their ecstatic worship, not from word block, but from the spirit of the powers of the air (Eph 6). Psalms are replete with categorization of idols, discussion various ones: check the original Hebrew, and context, to see whether it represents lifelessness, or spiritual entities. Again, "Biblical Demonolgy" is a standard on this information.

*wood blocks

Merrill F. Unger "Biblical Demonolgy"

sorry for the typos, I'm on my phone.

Brent, when I looked this up I was put off by the subtitle: " A Study of Spiritual Forces at Work Today"

Does he actually go into the progression of beliefs in spiritual forces, from early Hebrew days through the New Testament? I want to know the culture in which the Bible was written, and what it meant to its audience. I'm not interested in which demons are floating around me today.

I went ahead and ordered it, lol. Thanks for the reference.

Yes, Lee, although you obviously disagree with Unger on the reality of demons today, he does great linguistic study on the philology of various Hebrews words and their denotations, as well as their different connotations used is the various passages of the Tanakh, namely, Torah and the Psalms. Their is a wealth of good information in it, regardless if you accept all his conclusions. Furthermore, Unger lays out the theory I hold to of the essence of demons, namely, the disembodied spirits of the children of the Bene ha'Elohim and the "daughters of men" (no Hebrew word for idol that connotes demon was used until after the fact, nature qualified by Jesus' teachings in NT, etc.) Substantiated by Fathers' understanding as well.

All that to say is that you'll benefit from this greatly, Lee.

Guillermo wrote: "Anthonywilson wrote: "Judy,

Don't forget that the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints charge as well. They run routine tithe checks to make sure they get their 10%."

I don't know why but ..."

Don't want to get into a back and forth thing with you, but from my personal studies into the LDS group (because I almost joined), there is a massive importance placed on the Temple and rites preformed there. Also, Christians treat Christianity as the only true faith is because the founder stated that He was the only way. Christians cut themselves off from other sects because, usually, the other sects might do things extra ordinary; like talking about celestial marriage when Jesus said there isn't marriage in the afterlife.

Guillermo wrote: "Anthonywilson wrote: "Judy,

Don't forget that the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints charge as well. They run routine tithe checks to make sure they get their 10%."

I don't know why but ..."

Mormons do the same thing. The only difference is that they do it with a smile.

Not to sound redundant, but I highly recommend Idleman's "Gods At War." It's not a really scholarly/theologically deep book, it's written on more of general discipleship level. L do get you point about how word idol(s) turns to demon(s). If we're talking in a general sense, then yes, I do agree that something of a demonic nature can come out of idols; simply because your mind becomes fixated on the idol. I like your Bible worship analogy, I thing this guy could help out in that area: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtVjnE... He talks about how folks do make the Bible into an idol. Here's another video of him talking about making the Law into an idol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC9kpu...

Neo-pantheism in the guise of "science" constitutes widespread, insidious idolatry, palatable even to many churches. The equivalent of God and Ashoreth, or just plain Ashtoreth. (First post.)