SA reads discussion
Kill Mandela
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Week three
Adele wrote: "18 January - 24 January: chapter 38 - 55Week three discussion is now open for those who are reading in advance. PLEASE BE AWARE OF THREAT OF SPOILERS. If you are not reading ahead, please do not..."
Thanks, Adele. I'm going to leave it open for a day or two before I post a discussion point. Or, better still, I'd like to invite whoever is able to join week three now, to come up with a discussion point for the group. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Not a discussion topic; just an observation: In the week two discussion, Vicki referred to Jack as a Draadsitter. That struck me when I came across this passage in chapter 45: "It had always been so with English speaking South Africans, Jan thought. They sat on the fence and only got off when it was clear onto which side it was best for them to climb down." John, you must have smiled when you read Vicki's comment.
Buck wrote: "Not a discussion topic; just an observation: In the week two discussion, Vicki referred to Jack as a Draadsitter. That stuck me when I came across this passage in chapter 45: "It had always been ..."I did. Vicki's going to come at me with that one, I expect.
Although, Jack was different to his fellow English compatriots: he chose clearly which side of the fence he was on - so much so that he had to keep it mostly hidden, not for his sake, but for those he loved and served.
Vicki wrote: "John wrote: "Buck wrote: "Not a discussion topic; just an observation: In the week two discussion, Vicki referred to Jack as a Draadsitter. That stuck me when I came across this passage in chapte..."See what you got me into, Buck?
Good to have you here in week 3, Vicki. I'm sure we'll have a lot to talk about.
A discussion point to kick off week 3:Do you agree with Jack's pronouncement on his friend, Alpheus?
Yet, in the waters that separated them, Jack felt the swirl, the birth pains, the tideswell of a new nation: one that would soon come forth in the blood of Alpheus and all those who had gone before him.
‘Be at peace, good friend,’ Jack whispered into the breeze. ‘Your sacrifice was greater than your sins.’
John wrote: "A discussion point to kick off week 3:Do you agree with Jack's pronouncement on his friend, Alpheus?
Yet, in the waters that separated them, Jack felt the swirl, the birth pains, the tideswell o..."
Alpheus regretted having murdered Jan's parents. Was that enough? Does contrition absolve us of our crimes? Is carrying the burden of guilt a sacrifice? He in turn was murdered for his part in the struggle against apartheid. Was it ultimate justice? Jan felt avenged. Did that wipe his slate clean? Was his sacrifice greater than his sins? I think it is an unanswerable question.
Boxer said something that resonates with me. It reflects my feelings that I expressed in the previous week's discussion."We cannot take a life for a life, York. That way we'll never have peace in this country. Some have to suffer more than others in the beginning, but it will balance out in the end."
Buck wrote: "John wrote: "A discussion point to kick off week 3:Do you agree with Jack's pronouncement on his friend, Alpheus?
Yet, in the waters that separated them, Jack felt the swirl, the birth pains, th..."
Yes, Buck. The mathematics of morality is hard to reconcile. It is subjective. That is why forgiveness is such a wonderful tool: it bypasses all the mathematics and takes you back to zero again.
Buck wrote: "Boxer said something that resonates with me. It reflects my feelings that I expressed in the previous week's discussion."We cannot take a life for a life, York. That way we'll never have peace i..."
I love that line, too. One of the most profound, and right that it came from Boxer's mouth.
Vicki wrote: "Does anyone truly forgive completely and without reservations? How can you when your loss is immense? I'm not convinced. Every time you think about what happened you'd have to remember that you ha..."Vicki,
I am not good at forgiving. But I have 'heard', repeatedly, that forgiving is not something that you do with your mind. It requires you to dig much deeper into yourself to find it's formula.
Now, I know that would be a problem for those who believe our minds are the final frontier of our life experience. Nevertheless, there it is for what it is worth.
Vicki wrote: "It's a soul thing I think."You said it. I agree. (Unless you're referring to the musical variety).
Got to be careful talking about souls 'n stuff, though. Almost as offensive as religion to some.
Vicki wrote: "Okay, let's just think of this as a paranormal thing. Oh wait, people have a problem with that too. Fiction maybe - no, it's a problem. Non- fiction - no, problem too. Zombie apocalypse - not a pr..."Ha! My feelings, exactly. Well put!
Hi - I've just joined the group because I have Kill Mandela on my Kindle and I can't wait to read it. I'm not going to read too many comments, because I'm behind you all (I'm on a reading ban as I am just finishing a novel myself).One thing I would love to know though is how much do I need to understand the politics of South Africa before I read this book - I'm always happy to learn, but I don't want to be the idiot that just doesn't get it!
Thanks John - it's good to be here.So - do I need to understand the politics, or can I work it out as I go? I did make a start before my reading ban came into play and was really enjoying it. But thought I would check if I need to do some research before reading on.
Rachel
Hi Rachel. Sorry, my last comment went through without me finishing it.Let me first introduce you to the group:
Rachel Abbott is the best-selling author of 'Only The Innocent'(Amazon no. 1)&'The Back Road'(Amazon no 2).
These were her first two novels! She is about to publish her third.
http://www.rachel-abbott.com/
Rachel also has a successful blog: http://rachelabbottwriter.wordpress.com/
where she helps new writers by sharing her experiences as a successful author. This is how I met her, and I have been a fan ever since. Rachel graciously offered to read my first novel, KILL MANDELA, and here she is now on the group.
Rachel, a bit of a background on SA politics would help, but it is not necessary to do research to follow the novel. I have a 'History' tab and a 'Locations' tab on my website that will help - perhaps you can look at those first:
http://www.johnmountford.com/location/
http://www.johnmountford.com/history/
I am sure you have a basic understanding of who Nelson Mandela is and why he is important to South African history. Any other gaps in your knowledge we can fill as we go along. We have a very helpful group. We look forward to your comments.
Vicki wrote: "Rachel wrote: "Thanks John - it's good to be here.So - do I need to understand the politics, or can I work it out as I go? I did make a start before my reading ban came into play and was really e..."
Hey, Vicki,
Our new guest is barely half an hour old and you are already misbehaving! You could at least show me a little respect in front of a famous author!
Rachel, don't mind Vicki - she's upset with me because I won't tell her all the plot points in advance.
Vicki wrote: "Rachel wrote: "Thanks John - it's good to be here.So - do I need to understand the politics, or can I work it out as I go? I did make a start before my reading ban came into play and was really e..."
Rachel,
Vicki is the author of 'How To Start Living Or Die Trying' and is about to publish her second. https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...
I guess that makes me the junior author around here.
I can see this is going to be fun! Yes - even though I spend most of my time with my head in a bucket (figuratively speaking) I DO know about Nelson Mandela.
Thanks for the kind words, John - and I'm delighted there is so much interest in your book. (And love the title of Vicki's book!)
Vicki wrote: "Rachel wrote: "I can see this is going to be fun! Yes - even though I spend most of my time with my head in a bucket (figuratively speaking) I DO know about Nelson Mandela.
Thanks for the kind w..."
Rachel,
I have just mailed you a short intro. to the plot to help you get up to speed.
Hello and welcome Rachel! I will send you a personal message during tomorrow.
Mod
Welcome Rachel, always great to see new people. We've got a few non South Africans in the group who are unfamiliar with our political and social structures. In addition to John's history and locations, the rest of us pitch in and try to explain as we go along. John's book is also written in a way that explains itself fairly well.
All these threads remain up so please add your thoughts on e your book ban is over.
A book ban? How novel!
I know - but when I'm writing, my agent says it's better if I don't read anything else - particularly as I get close to the end - to make sure that other people's styles don't influence me. And it's true - I was reading something nice and easy - some chick lit or something - and found myself using entirely inappropriate words in my own book! They all got deleted, though!
Mod
Do you agree with Jack's pronouncement on his friend, Alpheus?
Yet, in the waters that separated them, Jack felt the swirl, the bi..."
I think that forgiveness is a repetitive, conscious decision. You need to decide to forgive someone and keep reminding yourself that you have made that decision.
The phrase forgive and forget is quite glib, it does not account for the effort needed.
Another concept I'd like to raise is that of atonement. I think Alpheus deeply regrets his prior decisions and actions. He would like to ask Jan for forgiveness. But I think he asks the world for forgiveness in other ways.
Mod
Rachel wrote: "I can see this is going to be fun! Yes - even though I spend most of my time with my head in a bucket (figuratively speaking) I DO know about Nelson Mandela.
Thanks for the kind words, John - an..."
Hi, Rachel! I am from the U.S. and literally knew nothing about South Africa's political or social system prior to joining this group, and had only a very rudimentary knowledge of Nelson Mandela, but I have not had any problems reading KILL MANDELA. John does a great job of providing background information within the text, so I'm sure that you will be fine! And it's a spectacular read! :-)
John wrote: "A discussion point to kick off week 3:Do you agree with Jack's pronouncement on his friend, Alpheus?
Yet, in the waters that separated them, Jack felt the swirl, the birth pains, the tideswell o..."
It seems to me that Alpheus felt remorse for his actions from the time that he committed the murder. I don't believe that he would have acted without his brother's urging, not that that excuses him. Alpheus spent the rest of his life trying to make South Africa a better place, whereas his brother Sipho joined the violent protest group. While nothing can erase what the brothers did, I think that Alpheus's work and his raising of Boxer do much to exonerate him on some level. I guess what I'm trying to say is that he learned from his mistakes and tried to become a better person and make life better for his people and his family, rather than devolving into a life of violence and bitterness--like Andile.
The alliance of Boxer and York makes me smile and gives me hope for the characters and their futures. Now that they have both lost their father in the cause, Boxer’s visionary words and altruistic mindset strike deeper: “The struggle for whites and blacks to understand each other, like our fathers did. That’s what will save our country!” (chapter 39). Alpheus and Jack have paved the way for a better future, one in which black and white can hopefully begin to coexist in peace and equality. Without Boxer’s influence and good example, I don’t think that York would be where he is now. He has come to realize what his father has been working for, and what life is really like for the black South Africans. This is poignantly brought to bear when he pays his respects to Miriam: “Then the wave broke, and York knew that he’d never be the same again” (chapter 47). However, part of his anger remains and cries out for revenge: “The guilt hadn’t softened York’s heart. It had hardened it. Mr. Kruger would pay first, and Tony would follow later” (chapter 55). Boxer also takes revenge, but his vengeance is not thoughtless or rage-driven. For instance, he makes Peaches pay, but then he seems to move on; he could have easily killed the gangster, but he realizes that doing so would not advance his father’s cause: “We cannot take a life for a life, York. That way, we’ll never have peace in this country. Some have to suffer more than others in the beginning, but it will balance out in the end” (chapter 46). Jan, on the other hand, believes more in “an eye for an eye,” although he faces conflicts within himself and has so far been unable to directly kill someone. He would, doubtless, have murdered Alpheus if Peaches had not—or would he? “For some reason he found the choice between life and death more difficult for Thembelani than it was for MAMUD. Perhaps because they’d been childhood friends? When you’ve seen inside a man’s soul—even just a glimpse—it becomes personal” (chapter 43). He faces the same problem when it comes to Jack, and he suddenly decides to rescue Jack, not realizing that it is already too late: “Getting those cigarettes back was the difference between life and death, not only for Jack, but for himself as well, Jan knew” (chapter 55). Is Jan now on the verge of suicide? Although Jack also struggled with what he should do regarding his own job and that offered to him by Jan, he was overall a happy man who was at peace with himself and with others. This point is made evident in his death, and in my opinion, that is why he is the one to die (at least so far) instead of, say, Jan. Jack’s business is more or less finished. His role as the Postman is done, Mandela is due to be released, and York and Lillian are forming a bond that heretofore was nonexistent: “Mother and son sat in silence, hand-in-hand, with York between Lillian and Jack—in his death as they had been in his life. But now, instead of a buffer, York was a link—and as they sat, he felt his change of role” (chapter 53). I hope that things will yet be set right, and that Jan and York can experience the same peace that Jack did.
Buck wrote: "Boxer said something that resonates with me. It reflects my feelings that I expressed in the previous week's discussion."We cannot take a life for a life, York. That way we'll never have peace i..."
I made note of the same quotation while reading. A powerful one...
Lisa wrote: "Rachel wrote: "Hi - I've just joined the group because I have Kill Mandela on my Kindle and I can't wait to read it. I'm not going to read too many comments, because I'm behind you all (I'm on a re..."I saw that, Lisa. Very cute.
Rachel wrote: "I know - but when I'm writing, my agent says it's better if I don't read anything else - particularly as I get close to the end - to make sure that other people's styles don't influence me. And it'..."Damn, Rachel! I would have loved a bit of chick-lit in the next book.
Lisa wrote: "John wrote: "Buck wrote: "John wrote: "A discussion point to kick off week 3:Do you agree with Jack's pronouncement on his friend, Alpheus?
Yet, in the waters that separated them, Jack felt the ..."
Lisa,
Another point for Jack's view here is that Alpheus was under the 'control' of his older brother at the time of the attack. He had a cultural and a moral conscience to deal with.
The sacrificial lamb? Yes, one could say that his sacrifice on behalf of his country extends to Jan, but atonement is a complex concept when thought about at length. Justice and mercy are sublime opposites that can never be reconciled by thought.
For me, as the author, it is about how I feel when I read Jack's words as he stands at the tip of Robben Island and gazes out towards the mountain: It gave me goosebumps when I wrote it, and I get goosebumps ever since every time I read it. I know they are true.
Lisa wrote: "John, when are you going to raise York's vision and discussion with Boxer? I have a comment to make!"Lisa, thank you so much for the reminder! I cannot believe that it slipped my attention. York's vision was one of the things I pencilled in first to raise in the group discussion. I shall pose the discussion point hereafter.
Sarah wrote: "Rachel wrote: "I can see this is going to be fun! Yes - even though I spend most of my time with my head in a bucket (figuratively speaking) I DO know about Nelson Mandela.
Thanks for the kind w..."
Sarah,
I love that word, 'spectacular', and even more so when it is applied to my novel. Thank you.
Sarah wrote: "John wrote: "A discussion point to kick off week 3:Do you agree with Jack's pronouncement on his friend, Alpheus?
Yet, in the waters that separated them, Jack felt the swirl, the birth pains, th..."
Sarah,
You raise relevant points, but one unique one: that Alpheus was partly responsible for raising a boy of the calibre of Boxer. That must stand for something - perhaps Lisa's theme of atonement applies here?
Sarah wrote: "The alliance of Boxer and York makes me smile and gives me hope for the characters and their futures. Now that they have both lost their father in the cause, Boxer’s visionary words and altruistic ..."Sarah,
What a beautiful summary of some of the deeper issues of this section. You see, and present, the depth behind the words in a way that makes them new to me. I love reading your pieces.
There are two points in particular that touched me:
1) That despite Jack's best efforts at preaching to York about equality, it is Boxer's example that converts York. Indeed, York may well have followed after Kobus, back to the Kruger household, had it not been for Boxer.
2)The reason Jack dies: his work is finished. Yes, we can let him go with peace.
Vicki wrote: "Jack dies? WTH JOHN? Just kidding. Saw that coming. Remember when I said Jack was in over his head? Well there you go."
Glad you didn't take it too hard, Vicki. I confess to being a little nervous about your response. Do you feel it was right, or would you rather reserve judgement 'til the end?
Vicki wrote: "John wrote: "Vicki wrote: "Jack dies? WTH JOHN? Just kidding. Saw that coming. Remember when I said Jack was in over his head? Well there you go."
Glad you didn't take it too hard, Vicki. I conf..."
Fair enough. Looking forward to the big reveal. Fingers and toes crossed.
Thank you,
Vicki.
Discussion point 2 in Week three:York's relationship with Jemaine is bittersweet. Is Jemaine's reaction here appropriate? Is York's problem his whiteness, or his selfishness?
‘So that’s why you wanted to drive past his house!’ Fear and anger rose in Jemaine’s voice. ‘What if he recognised you with me on the back of your bike?’
‘I think he did. I wanted to talk to you about it. It was stupid of me, but I forgot that I didn’t have my helmet on. I’m sorry.’
‘You’re sorry! York, don’t you realise that you’ve put my whole family at risk? We don’t have a white skin to protect us. The police laugh at us coloureds when we report the gangsters. What are you going to do about that?’ There was only anger in her voice now. Tears started from her eyes.
York squirmed. Jemaine was right. He’d thought about himself and Boxer, and nobody else. How could he have been so blind to the danger for Jemaine and her family?
York had made a mistake – a bad one; but he was still groping to understand the swiftness and intensity of Jemaine’s anger. ‘We don’t have a white skin to protect us ….’ That was the key to it, he thought, but he was too upset to make sense of it. Yet another painful lesson in race relations for him – ‘being white wasn’t as easy as you thought,’ he reckoned silently, ‘once you ventured outside your white world.’
John wrote: "Discussion point 2 in Week three:York's relationship with Jemaine is bittersweet. Is Jemaine's reaction here appropriate? Is York's problem his whiteness, or his selfishness?
‘So that’s why you..."
I feel that York just isn't used to having to guard his actions and watch his back. He has had a privileged upbringing, overall, and now that he's dating Jemaine, he has to remember her skin color. I am glad that he doesn't seem affected by it in the way that he is unashamed, but he does need to take her safety into account. I just think that he isn't accustomed to this yet.
John wrote: "Discussion point 2 in Week three:York's relationship with Jemaine is bittersweet. Is Jemaine's reaction here appropriate? Is York's problem his whiteness, or his selfishness?
‘So that’s why you..."
Jemaine's reaction is not to York's race. It certainly hadn't mattered til now. It is to York's thoughtlessness. I don't think it was selfishness on York's part as much as brashness and bravado. He didn't think.
Vicki wrote: "Its probably his whiteness, he just doesn't come across as the selfish type for me. Maybe teenage ego moreso than anything else. And yes her reaction is appropriate. These guys are no joke."Thanks, Vicki. Yes, I think York has yet to fully realise that there is another world alongside his own, and being white is a hindrance to understanding it.
Sarah wrote: "John wrote: "Discussion point 2 in Week three:York's relationship with Jemaine is bittersweet. Is Jemaine's reaction here appropriate? Is York's problem his whiteness, or his selfishness?
Sarah, ditto to my reply to Vicki. Privilege often does go hand in hand with carelessness. York is careless, but not uncaring.
‘So t..."
Buck wrote: "John wrote: "Discussion point 2 in Week three:York's relationship with Jemaine is bittersweet. Is Jemaine's reaction here appropriate? Is York's problem his whiteness, or his selfishness?
Thanks, Buck.
Well, I am relieved that, so far, the general judgement is not too harsh on York. Perhaps it is Jemaine that should be reprimanded for going a bit over-the-top on this matter?
‘So t..."
I understand Jemaine's alarm, but I thought she over-reacted in her rejection of York; but then I don't claim to understand budding teenage relationships, and certainly not teenage girls. Aside from the one important piece of information, that she knew where Peaches lived, I thought York's and Jemaine's relationship was kind of a side story, seasoning to the main plot.
Buck wrote: "I understand Jemaine's alarm, but I thought she over-reacted in her rejection of York; but then I don't claim to understand budding teenage relationships, and certainly not teenage girls. Aside fr..."Buck,
That one bit of information was crucial to the plot. If she had not shared that with York, York and Boxer would not have followed Peaches and discovered Jan Kruger's involvement.
She also played an important role in cushioning York's early suffering with Judy, Lillian and Mrs. Hawthorns murder. He was particularly fragile and vulnerable then - as indicated when he stood on the edge of the ledge and raised himself onto the balls of his feet like a high diver. Sacrificing himself to the mountain was the glimmer of an option at that point.
Otherwise, yes, 'seasoning to the main plot' - well put.
Lisa.... You will be happy because I am kicking in......I understand exactly what happened to Jemaine and why she reacted the way she did as I accidently placed someone I cared about in danger by doing something similar. It may seem like an over reaction but it truly wasn't.
Irene wrote: "Lisa.... You will be happy because I am kicking in......I understand exactly what happened to Jemaine and why she reacted the way she did as I accidently placed someone I cared about in danger by..."
Thank you, Irene. I'm glad that potential injustice to Jemaine brought you out of your lair. It takes a woman...
Perhaps we can hear your Jemaine story sometime - if it's not too personal.
Good call, Vicki. Now, which character is NOT in over his head? LolI think York's bonehead move staring at Peaches' house was just a matter of innocent, though dangerous, naivete. It reminded me of a situation I experienced in Philadelphia during the City's 1980s gang war. I accompanied a couple of Italian-American friends to a South Philly restaurant that was popular with Mafiosi. I recognized some of the patrons from the front pages of the Daily News and had to be warned by my friends to stop staring.
Week three discussion is now open for those who are reading in advance. PLEASE BE AWARE OF THREAT OF SPOILERS. If you are not reading ahead, please do not join in discussion until you have reached appropriated chapters.