Reading the Chunksters discussion

It's time! Here is our first thread for The Once and Future King. Spoilers are welcome in this thread, but only spoilers on this section, thanks.

Questions for this first section:

What do you think of the characters of Wart and Kay, and what are your thoughts on their relationship??

What do you think about Merlyn and his first meeting with Wart?

Also feel free to comment on anything else that you found interesting! I can't wait to get reading with you all!

“The Wart was not a proper son. He did not understand this, but it made him feel unhappy…” This very much made me think of when Tyrion tells John Snow to own being a bastard, and to wear it like a shield, because then no one can use it against you.

We have a very modern Merlyn here, one that knows about Bunson Burners and Electricity. I actually pouted and pushed out my lower lip when Merlyn shed a tear after meeting Arthur/Wart and asked him if he had already told him this story about himself, and asked Wart “So little time to pass?” I think you can really see how lonely Merlyn is here, but also how much he knows he is going to love Wart. I also am growing to love Merlyn’s sense of humor, especially when he is talking about how, in the future, it will be considered a poor habit to lick your dogs nose, and Merlyn says “Although I cannot see it myself. After all, God made the creature’s nose just as well as he made your tongue… if not better.” That’s the kind of humor that I like to see in my various portrayals of Merlyn, kind of an absent-minded, looking at things sideways humor.

So far I like the Ector seems to be very generous and kind towards Wart, and Kay doesn’t seem to be any worse than your average older brother. I kind of expected it to be like Disney’s Sword in the Stone where Wart is somewhat mistreated by his foster family.

The only thing that I don’t really care for in the narrative is the authors interjections about things in modern times, like when he points out that you don’t question someone in command now, or how a castle looks now, or how he called it port wine instead of its proper name so that it can be more easily understood. These interjections seem so out of place and random, that it’s very disjointed to me, and knocks me out of the book immediately. I always hate that.

Becky wrote: I actually pouted and pushed out my lower lip when Merlyn shed a tear after meeting Arthur/Wart and asked him if he had already told him this story about himself, and asked Wart “So little time to pass?”

Oh, so did I, Becky!! I was not prepared to feel so emotional this close to the beginning.

Wow, so I guess I knew nothing about this book other than it's a favorite of my husband's. I thought it was going to be all serious but quickly see that is not the case. I love the scene with King Pellinor (is that right?) where he drops his glasses and is hopping around with one foot in the stirrup. I was cracking up. I told my husband that the first 5 chapters reminded me of a cross between Harry Potter, Monty Python and the Incredible Mister Limpet!

And the whole Merlin living backwards thing was new to me too and I was also immediately thrown when he mentioned electricity. So "Excalibur" it is not!

Becky wrote: The only thing that I don’t really care for in the narrative is the authors interjections about things in modern times, like when he points out that you don’t question someone in command now, or how a castle looks now, or how he called it port wine instead of its proper name so that it can be more easily understood. These interjections seem so out of place and random, that it’s very disjointed to me, and knocks me out of the book immediately.

I do not mind these interjections so much, some are a bit interesting, and I kind of like the randomness. But I did not like the descriptions of how the castle looks now, all crumbling and you would have to figure out what parts of the castle were what, just because it made me sad to think of all these people we are about to spend so much time with and get to know, that they are not actually living anymore. I wanted to keep in the time of the story, which is happy and joyful at the present telling.

I had never read this before either Victoria. I didn't even realize that Disney's Sword in the Stone must be based off this book. It also just got added to Netflix, so I might have to watch that after I read this just for some fun. I didn't realize it would be so comical either, your description is spot-on though I've never seen the Incredible Mister Limpet?

Victoria wrote: "Wow, so I guess I knew nothing about this book other than it's a favorite of my husband's. I thought it was going to be all serious but quickly see that is not the case. I love the scene with King ..."

Ha! I was laughing at this part too! I also did not realize there was going to be humor in this book, but I am pleasantly surprised. :)

Becky wrote: "I had never read this before either Victoria. I didn't even realize that Disney's Sword in the Stone must be based off this book. It also just got added to Netflix, so I might have to watch that a..."

The Incredible Mr. Limpet is a 1963 Don Knotts movie (I wasn't born then) that I saw many times on TV as a kid. Looks like it's available on Amazon Prime. Silly movie.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004...

This is quite unlike any version of King Arthur I have read before and it is probably one of the most comical accounts I have encountered, I can see where this book may have been written to appeal to a younger audience, though it is still quite enjoyable reading.

From the start I was a bit surprised by the interactions between Kay and "Wart." In most accounts of the story Kay is portrayed as a close and loyal friend of Arthur, and that they grow up together as if they were natural brothers.

But within this book we can clearly see the distinguish between standing between Kay and Wart in Kay's treatment of him. Kay is almost a bully from the very start of coming up with the name Wart for him. Though in many ways I think this portrays a very realistic behavior of young boys in general and particularly in the case when a child like Kay is grown up with a sense of his own entitlement and knowing that Wart is not his equal.

The meeting with King Pellinore reminded of a cross between something from Alice and Wonderland (particularly with the idea of the questing beast) and a bit like Don Quixote stepped into the story of King Arthur.

Merlin is portrayed as a very classical wizard of high fantasy. His magic is more pronounced or outrageous in a way (and far more fantastical) than in many other accounts of the story. Summoning objects out of thin air, making dishes wash themselves, traveling through time. The description of him when he was first introduced reminded me of Radagast from the Hobbit movie.

I do love Archimedes the talking owl.

It is a funny read. I had no idea. I was expecting something else indeed.
I am trying to catch up with all of you but had a question that is nagging me.
in the first chapter Sir Grummore said he had a good day, he found a chap Sir Bruce Something -or-Other chopping off a maiden's head. What is he talking about?

Michelle wrote: "It is a funny read. I had no idea. I was expecting something else indeed.
I am trying to catch up with all of you but had a question that is nagging me.
in the first chapter Sir Grummore said he ..."

I don't remember that, what chapter was it in?

In chapter 1, in my copy the second page, where he and Sir Ector are passing the port.

Michelle wrote: "In chapter 1, in my copy the second page, where he and Sir Ector are passing the port."

Ok thanks, I will go back and reread and see if I can make sense of it.

Michelle wrote: "It is a funny read. I had no idea. I was expecting something else indeed.
I am trying to catch up with all of you but had a question that is nagging me.
in the first chapter Sir Grummore said he ..."

Silver - it was on the second page of the first chapter.

I was confused by that part at first too, but also a bit amused that someone chopping off a maiden's head was thrown into the conversation like that so early on in the book. I didn't think we were really meant to know who this person was who did the chopping, though. Just that he should not have been doing it in the first place and Sir Grummore had given chase for quite awhile until he had finally lost the fellow.

Sir Grummore makes the remark after Sir Ector asked him how is quest went, so I think what Sir Grummore means about it being a good day, was that upon coming upon the act of a maiden being beheaded it provided him with a bit of an adventure, and he got to play the role of a knight by going after the man and thus avenging the maiden or at least attempting to.

It was a good quest day because something interesting actually happened which required him to take some sort of knightly and brave action.

Silver wrote: "Sir Grummore makes the remark after Sir Ector asked him how is quest went, so I think what Sir Grummore means about it being a good day, was that upon coming upon the act of a maiden being beaded i..."

I like your explanation of how it had been a "good day" for Sir Grummore. I missed that part, and was just focusing on the beheading.

I'm really enjoying this book so far! I took a great liking to young Wart, along with Merlyn and Archimedes, right away.

I did not care for Kay and his way of getting to do what he wanted since he was older, and since he was Sir Ector's proper son. And I didn't like the way he spoke to Wart hastily. But like Becky said, he doesn't seem any worse than a normal older brother would be expected to act towards his younger brother. Then at the end of Chapter 4 the narrator says "He (Kay) was not at all an unpleasant person, really, but clever, quick, proud, passionate and ambitious. He was one of those people who would be neither a follower nor a leader, but only an aspiring heart, impatient in the failing body which imprisoned it." Then I felt a little bad for not liking him. This description makes him seem limited by his natural character, like impatience as seen when he gives up trying to get Cully back safely and just wants to go home.

I really loved Wart for staying out in those woods and keeping an eye on Cully. One, because I think he has a natural loves for animals, and two because he knows how much time Hob had taken to train Cully and he didn't want to let Hob down.

I also liked the meeting of Archimedes and how the owl wanted to pretend there was in fact no visitor to his home at all. And the exchange about Wart wanting to give Archimedes a nickname and then Merlyn explaining how that would be quite improper for an owl to take on a nickname was quite amusing.

And I loved Dog Boy, and how he loved Wart the way the dogs loved Dog Boy. I liked the picture of Wart, Dog Boy, and all the dogs playing and lounging together and being just happy and content.

I could go on and on about all the little bits that I found amusing or endearing.

And the last bit I will go on about since I can't help it is the description of the tiny hoods for the birds, I could just imagine them all lined up there in various sizes all painted nicely white and red with the tiny feather plumes atop each one.

I'm surprised how many find these chapters amusing. It was very interesting to read right from the first chapter though. While reading I tried, then stopped, comparing book 1 with the disney animated film.

I agree with all of your observations! I love the humor in this book, especially King Pellinor. I also thought Kay was a bit of a spoiled child, and treated Wart like a younger brother with less privilege.

Did anyone see that the spell Merlyn cast was written backwards? In the book it is written: "snylrem stnemilpmoc ot enutpen dna lliw eh yldnik tpecca siht yob sa a hsif?"
But if you reverse each word it reads: "Merlyns compliments to Neptune and will he kindly accept this boy as a fish?"

Pretty cool huh?

I also love Archemedes and his interaction with Wart...very sweet and funny.

Awesome. Kristi, I had not noticed that!

The thing that's struck me the most is just that, in knowing the base Arthur story, these first few funny scenes actually become rather tragic- it also explains the way Merlin treats him too. We are seeing the start of a path that will lead to this boy's destruction. Without the author's interjections about the castle or modern times, the humor is tainted with the knowledge that this joyful time is not going to last.

As someone who does not generally enjoy comedy, I am enjoying this book- but whenever Merlin talks I can't shake the foreboding I feel in some of what he says.

Jennie wrote: "The thing that's struck me the most is just that, in knowing the base Arthur story, these first few funny scenes actually become rather tragic- it also explains the way Merlin treats him too. We ar..."

I hadn't thought of it this way, but you are right. If you had no idea what Arthur's future was then it's just a fun and funny book, but knowing makes it tinged with sadness.

I really enjoyed Arthur's adventure as a fish. It reminded me of my favorite part of Disney's Sword and the Stone. The battle between Merlyn and Madam Min, where they keep shifting into different sorts of animals.

I thought it was very poignant when Merlyn said "Such a short time?" since they met because time was going backwards for him and he was about to lose Wart for ever (going into the time before they met).

I didn't expect the hilarity of all the anachronisms! Sir Ector and his friend reminded me of characters in 18th-century novels, especially the Squire in Tom Jones, and the situation is a little similar because Tom Jones like Wart was brought up in the Squire's Mr Allworthy's household but wasn't his son. I was confusing two of Fielding's characters there - Squire Western and Mr Allworthy - but I still think the parallels are strong.

Linda wrote: "Silver wrote: "Sir Grummore makes the remark after Sir Ector asked him how is quest went, so I think what Sir Grummore means about it being a good day, was that upon coming upon the act of a maiden..."

Linda, I didn't take such a literal meaning to the passage. I thought Sir Grummursum found the knight taking advantage of a young girl, since maiden head also means virginity.

Ami wrote: "Linda wrote: "Silver wrote: "Sir Grummore makes the remark after Sir Ector asked him how is quest went, so I think what Sir Grummore means about it being a good day, was that upon coming upon the a..."

Oh! I did not know of the second meaning. Thanks for pointing that out.

Ami wrote: "Linda, I didn't take such a literal meaning to the passage. I thought Sir Grummursum found the knight taking advantage of a young girl, since maiden head also means virginity. "

Ha! I didn't get that either! Was v. confused by the idea that knights would go around killing young women. Of course this interpretation is much more likely!

Ami wrote: "Linda wrote: "Silver wrote: "Sir Grummore makes the remark after Sir Ector asked him how is quest went, so I think what Sir Grummore means about it being a good day, was that upon coming upon the a..."

I didn't catch that either! Much better part of the book now.

What do you think of the characters of Wart and Kay, and what are your thoughts on their relationship??
I am very much enjoying the character if Wart, not so much Kay. Kay seems to be very stuck up and almost has this “privileged” air about him. I feel as though he knows he is going to be master of the land one day and so has the right to do what he wants. Wart on the other hand, seems as though he doesn’t believe in himself and doesn’t believe that he is worthy, and so bows down to anything and everything that Kay says. I think that fact that Sir Ecton is only Wart’s guardian has also affected how Wart views himself. Maybe his nickname also has something to do with it- I mean who wants to be nicknamed Wart?!

Their relationship is interesting. At first I thought that they were really close, almost like brothers, but it seems that they do not have that great a relationship. I feel like Kay says jump, and Wart says how high. I was surprised when Kay left Wart in the forest by himself and didn’t seem to send anyone to go and find him.

What do you think about Merlyn and his first meeting with Wart?
I thought the first meeting was very weird. I think I was a bit shocked at first that Wart didn’t question Merlyn immediately about how he knew who he was, but maybe Wart had already recognized him as the magical Merlyn?

I, like Becky and Linda, felt sad for Merlyn when he explained to Wart that he lived life backward and asked if he has already told the story. My heart broke- it must be so difficult to live like that.

@Kristi- "Did anyone see that the spell Merlyn cast was written backwards? In the book it is written: "snylrem stnemilpmoc ot enutpen dna lliw eh yldnik tpecca siht yob sa a hsif?"But if you reverse each word it reads: "Merlyns compliments to Neptune and will he kindly accept this boy as a fish?"

I definitely did not notice this- that's pretty cool! I will have to keep my eyes open more in the future!


Like everyone else I'm also surprised to find this book quite humorous- I thought it would have been boring and "strict". How can any book be bad if it has a talking owl?! And a mustard pot that comes when called- where do I get one????

Wart and Kay: I can see Kay as a boy who is supposed to become leader as a man but not sure what that means. The author stated at one point how Kay will not live up to those expectations. (Sorry cant remember the exact place) There is pressure on him that is not on Wart, which tends to cause him to bully Wart or feel resentful when Wart shows him up. (Cully)

During the fish scene, I couldn't quit picturing Don Knotts in the Incredible Mr. Limpet.

I got caught short when Merlyn mentioned the Electric company at their meeting. I have to keep reminding myself he is from the future.

I didn't realize this would be such a lighthearted retelling of the Camelot legend, very suited for child readers. I thought it would be darker. I hope it becomes more nuanced and adult as Wart ages.

Kelley wrote: "I didn't realize this would be such a lighthearted retelling of the Camelot legend, very suited for child readers."

Don't be reading this book aloud to your kids just yet- it gets much darker very soon.

Haha...great! :)

I think the anachronistic references make the book really quirky, and I am actually getting a kick out of it (but then again, I love movies like A Knight's Tale). I think they are done to insert some humor into the scene and it surely works.

I completely agree, Andrea. I think it's a really unexpected and unique aspect to the book. It works for me too.

Reading the Cliff's Notes to help in my understanding of some of the more obscure stuff. I found this interesting:

"The novel's epigraph serves as an invitation to the reader from T. H. White ("you and I") to enter a world of magic. "Gramarye" is an archaic word meaning "magic," and "Merlyn's Isle of Gramarye" refers not to the England of history, but of legend. Although the novel's style is often humorous and anachronistic, the characters are part of an old narrative and mythological tradition. The epigraph suggests to the reader that the novel's setting "is not any common earth" (one bound by the laws of physics as found in "realistic" fiction), but instead a place where uncommon occurrences and random moments of magic are the norm. Thus, the world of The Sword in the Stone is one where characters react in believable and understandable ways to unbelievable and fantastic events. For example, when the Wart is transformed into different animals, he feels all the emotions a reader would expect a person to feel upon becoming a fish, hawk, or badger — but the very impossibility of such transformations occurring is never questioned by any of the characters. Magic is as much of an accepted part of the characters' lives as gravity is of our own."

Kind of a magic realism, I suppose?

I didn't realize how much of the Disney film I had forgotten, such as changing into animals, the meeting with Archimedes, etc. And yes, I thought the description sounded just like Radagast from The Hobbit and LOTR lore. I hadn't pictured Merlyn quite like that, somehow. And I'd never heard about him living backwards through time... is this the only story that depicts Merlyn like this, or is this an aspect of the King Arthur legends that I just never picked up on?

Random question: is it "Wart" like the wart on a finger, or "Wart" to rhyme with "art?"

I really am enjoying the humor in the story as well. Some of the scenes are quite comical, though there is certainly the hint of some quite dark events to come. I haven't minded the references to the modern world, I think it adds some humor to the story, but I can also see how it could be distracting.

And Kristi, good catch on the spell!

O, and another question; I know it's all legend and fairy tale, but is there a certain period of time that legend says these Arthurian adventures were to have taken place? I kept seeing dates mentioned such as 15th century and such, but I thought it was supposed to have "taken place" much earlier than that? Or were those just illusions to future events of which Merlyn knows, but not the rest of the world which is moving forward?

Alana wrote: "O, and another question; I know it's all legend and fairy tale, but is there a certain period of time that legend says these Arthurian adventures were to have taken place? I kept seeing dates menti..."


Ive seen them generally placed much earlier, I believe the first recorded tales are 11th century. Its often interpreted as the fight between paganism and Christianity, especially as retold after the 12th and 13th centuries, previously I think they were just epic sagas kind of like Gilgamesh only without form.

Love the start of the book remembering little bits of the Disney movie that I watched with the kids years ago. Not sure how much of the book will follow Wart's apprentic ship