Support for Indie Authors discussion

I hardly have enough time to work on my current manuscripts, but still I go back and re-read and edit old books that I published years ago.
The problem is that as I get better at writing, I feel I want to go back to those books and look for things that could be wrong. I might be driving myself crazy, or I might have a good point.
The question is, when do I say to myself 'OK, that book is now as good as I'm going to have it. Stop it now.'?
When do you say that to yourself?

That is both the blessing and curse of digital books, isn't it? I just went back and did a full edit of my first series. But most of that was for typos and grammatical errors as well as uniformity of formatting. There wasone scene that nagged me. Something that I really felt would benefit from a change, but ultimately, I didn't make any changes.

My line if thinking is that what's done is done. Everyone improves as a writer and there are plenty of early books by famous folks that probably could have stood another round of editing a few years into their career.

Certainly, if I'm alerted to a typo or some technical error, I'm going to go back and fix it, but beyond that, let it go and move forward. You never know when you migt cross the line between fixing and breaking.

Leon wrote: "The question is, when do I say to myself 'OK, that book is now as good as I'm going to have it. Stop it now.'?
When do you say that to yourself? "

Probably... never. I do go over my already published works from time to time and check again for spelling and punctuation errors, typos, that kind of thing. I try not to change the story itself, however. Once the story is published, it is what it is and it isn't going to be more.

The hardest thing is, sometimes I run across a sentence that is awkward or poorly written and I struggle with whether to fix it. I have to make sure that doing so doesn't effect or ruin the rest of the paragraph or change the story even in some small way.

Leon wrote: "I hardly have enough time to work on my current manuscripts, but still I go back and re-read and edit old books that I published years ago.
The problem is that as I get better at writing, I feel I..."

Leon, I struggle with this, too. I'm a stronger believer in "continuous improvement." I keep revising/editing/proofreading over and over (and I enjoy doing these things). But it can easily become an obsession. I cannot read my own work without a "pen" in hand, because I will make changes. When do you stop? Once I feel that I've done my best, and hopefully all typos have been corrected, I move forward and work on the next novel. Revisiting the previous one over and over is preventing me from writing a new novel - and that should take precedence.

I hope that helps... at least you're not alone in this. :)

April

It's hard to find time to re-edit old books since I'm constantly working on the next one and doing research for the one after that.

I know how you feel. I need to go back and remove a comma that isn't supposed to be there and one word that I know is wrong. (Someone in the story says fizzles, when it should be fizzes.) Sigh

Yet, while I know I should fix these, I'm a bit nervous since the last time I did a few corrections, I uploaded the wrong file (on Smashwords). For a few days until I realized my mistakes people buying Fate were actually getting Destiny. So yeah, there is a time when correcting can be hazardous. :P At least, SW were kind enough to delete that file.

Still, I'm with Christina on this: typos, wrong words, punctuation ops, fine, but beyond that point? I'm not sure anymore, unless you received many reviews stating a flaw in the plot or something. If it's just to make a better sentence, I wouldn't do it after the book is out for a few years. You may end up re-writing the whole thing.

Phew, glad I'm not alone in this. Yeah, I won't ever change the story line, not with intent. I only go back for typos, grammar and fixing sentences.
Thanks for all the replies.

I guess editing "too much"comes when they bury you with your arms crossed over your very first book and you never quite got around to publishing it.

Edward wrote: "I guess editing "too much"comes when they bury you with your arms crossed over your very first book and you never quite got around to publishing it."
LOL. Good thing I've published a few then.
But I think I've spoken to a few people on the Internet who have that problem.

I'll hold onto a book for years if necessary to polish every word and power up or diminish every verb until it just cannot possibly be improved upon. - But then this last one spins through in a state of meditation that lasts months and is ready, and out the door it goes. I learned so much in writing it because I wasn't really writing it. Stuff about what happens after death and such. I offer my own editing skills to whomever it came through, but it really didn't require very much.

I only edit if there something major I missed or the other editors missed and quietly update. only if its something glaring (like a fight scene where the MC was both the attacker and the defender. I guess the editor got all up in it and missed that name being used twice in one sentence ).
But if its super minor I don't fret. I average 3 to 5 errors in my books (all over 350 pages) and no one complained.

I agree with what's already been said. A published work is published. We also fix typos if we find them (we a threshold for uploading a new version), but we make no material changes. We feel it's best to put that energy into what we are working on -- not what we were working on years ago.

Edward wrote: "I guess editing "too much"comes when they bury you with your arms crossed over your very first book and you never quite got around to publishing it."

Yep. Along with that bottle of wine you were saving for that "special occasion."

Leon wrote: "The question is, when do I say to myself 'OK, that book is now as good as I'm going to have it. Stop it now.'?..."

For myself, when it's a work in progress, the answer is: I'm done with it when I'm sick of looking at the bloody thing.

I do not advocate this approach however.

Owen wrote: "Yep. Along with that bottle of wine you were saving for that "special occasion."

Weekends are *always* special occasions. ;)

Heck, Owen & Christina; we had champagne the other night just to celebrate the fact that we had champagne!

E.J. wrote: "V.W. wrote: "It's hard to find time to re-edit old books since I'm constantly working on the next one and doing research for the one after that."

You're doing it right.

Other than typos, etc, whi..."

At the same time, people are harsher on typos these days than they used to be, I think, probably because it is so easy to fix and resubmit the files. People are also a bit harsher on a "juvenile style of writing" in that there are so many books to choose from. Readers can afford to be picky.
It is frustrating to discover how long it takes (several hours it seems) to fix just a couple typos in the book files and resubmit them to createspace and kdp. Maybe that's just me.

I read somewhere that Tolkein continued to tweak Lord of the Rings up until he died.

As authors, I think we feel we can never edit our books enough. I'm currently putting a book I wrote and published years ago through re-edits... although that book was in serious need of those re-edits. the writing's so terrible it embarrasses me that I even published the thing.

These days I edit and edit until I can't take it any more.

Melissa; Rumor has it Poe continued to tweak his work even AFTER he died.

Edward wrote: "Melissa; Rumor has it Poe continued to tweak his work even AFTER he died."

Lolz he was fueled by obsession of perfection and cocaine XP

Edward wrote: "Melissa; Rumor has it Poe continued to tweak his work even AFTER he died."

Now that's dedication ;)

Melissa wrote: "Edward wrote: "Melissa; Rumor has it Poe continued to tweak his work even AFTER he died."

Now that's dedication ;)"

And if you believe in reincarnation, perhaps a preface.

Edward wrote: "Melissa; Rumor has it Poe continued to tweak his work even AFTER he died."

lol

I edit mine to death. I analyze each sentence and then paragraph until my mind won't work anymore and it just shuts down. And still some stuff slips through the cracks. I don't do this with my shorts, I run through them a couple of times and make sure I have all of my ducks in a row, and that there is nothing stupidly obvious (and yet still there is).

Especially key scenes, or action scenes, I may edit them a dozen times. I try to make sure I put as much energy into the end as I do the beginning. But when I'm writing my draft, I will skimp on those, and come back to them when I want to write something like that, which leads to even more editing. Editing is really fun to me though. Moreso than writing for some reason.

Is it true with Poe? I never read his revised works. You meant Edgar A. Poe, right?

I just made that up.
But I did stumble across his grave one time and felt like he was giving me a message. From "Entertaining Naked People":

The back of the church was raised up from the ground. Tossed in among its supports were what looked like moldering bones.
My heart ached so much for these poor souls, neglected even after death, I turned away to head back, but managed only a few burdened steps.
I drew up abruptly and froze.
An old, worn marker, standing off by itself, grabbed at my heart.
It was Edgar Alan Poe.
He fit in so perfectly there. Maybe I did, too. His sorrow and pain ate through me as I stood, head lowered. Can’t even death let us step away from our darkness?
It was like he was scratching a warning into the dirt with his finger, and meant it specifically for me. Don’t wait around for sermons to wash you clean, he seemed to say, for death or drugs to close your eyes. God won’t come roaring in with fresh troops to drive away the darkness we’ve walled our own souls up in. He didn’t put us there; we’ll have to dig ourselves out.
I looked at my own life as I stood there, feeling buried alive, like some of his characters.
But unlike his characters I had caught a flash of hope.

Edward wrote: "Heck, Owen & Christina; we had champagne the other night just to celebrate the fact that we had champagne!"

Definitely a cause for celebration!

I confess that I can't stop editing. For me, revising and editing are the most enjoyable parts of the writing process. It's like the novel is an onion, and every round of revisions/edits peels away the exterior layers to reveal more of the good stuff underneath. Every time I edit, I feel like it's a better novel, so it's hard to resist doing that. The problem is, I need to move forward and get going on the second novel.

April

I was once told that when you find yourself putting back in the comma you took out that morning, it was time to stop.

Fixing typos, etc. is one thing. If you're going to rewrite the thing, know that's what you're doing when you start and have a plan. Otherwise, if it's selling, go on to the next one.

Or you could just do what I do; write several books at once.

Or, if you are fixing the typos, you might as well tweak a couple things that were bugging you anyway.
I way over-edit. My book completely changed from when I started writing it until it was published. Complete plotlines and characters appeared and disappeared. Eventually I had to stop. The book IS way better because of it, though.

I edit and revise until I can't bring myself to read the first paragraph one more time.

Tina wrote: "I edit and revise until I can't bring myself to read the first paragraph one more time."

This.

Me, too.

I learned early on that writing is the easy part. The real magic happens in the editing process.

April

Cathin wrote: "It is so refreshing to hear how real writers do it!"

You wrote a novel. You are a real writer, too!

What I find is that in first draft I tend to under-describe. I get on with the dialogue and action, without saying where the characters are. Because of this my wordcounts grow by about 5% on the second pass. Then I go through polishing and putting in better lines. This stage repeats until the moment I notice that I want to undo a change I did previously. Then it's done.

It's what I call the "critical plateau". There is a phase of climbing up to the top, but once you are there you can go round and round on the flat bit for years.

Curiously the feedback I get from the writers' group follows the pattern. When I am going uphill everyone agrees on what's wrong, but as soon as I hit the plateau everyone disagrees.

My current plan is to edit about 10% from my draft - seems like a reasonable jumping off point without gutting the story.

If you're deathly nervous, have someone read through and flag parts they find to be dragging :)

I spent ten years working on my debut novel, paid close attention to the reviews, especially the not-so-flattering ones. I went in about a year through 3 more editions, until finally said--enough. I so much wanted to get the first one right, because I am building a foundation for a trilogy. I'm sure that the next two won't take ten years apiece. Once the trilogy is done, I will come up with another theme.

Morris

Dwayne wrote: Probably... never. I do go over my already published works from time to time and check again for spelling and punctuation errors, typos, that kind of thing. I try not to change the story itself, however. Once the story is published, it is what it is and it isn't going to be more."

This is basically exactly what I do with my books. One of the great advantages of the internet for writers, is noticing when yourself or an editor has missed a typo and being able to fix it

I have a theory about old books.

Old books are like a garden. The longer you let them sit untended, the more weeds grow in them. Grammatical weeds, that is.

Your perfectly edited darling from 5 years ago, if never looked at again, will be inundated by grammatical mistakes. If you do go look at it again, you'll be horrified at the state of chaos existent in that book. You'll clean it up--embarrassed that you ever let it be published in the first place--get it all perfect again...and then in 5 years time it'll be in just as bad a shape as it was when you re-edited it.

The upshot of this, of course, is that authors ultimately face a horrible choice: either let your old work fester and go to weed...or constantly tend your old work, forever plucking the weeds that grow on their own.

Choose the former and people will think your old work was just total crap. Choose the latter and you'll eventually reach a point where you can no longer create new work. All your time will be spent tending the gardens of your past catalog.

Micah wrote: "I have a theory about old books.

Old books are like a garden. The longer you let them sit untended, the more weeds grow in them. Grammatical weeds, that is.

Your perfectly edited darling from 5 y..."

eGnomes, I'm telling you!

So far, I've always chosen to do edits on earlier works while I'm editing new ones. I want to check for the same things and it gets out of hand. I'm pretty good at stopping once the new work is "finished," though.

G.G. wrote: "eGnomes, I'm telling you!"

eGremlins more like.

V.M. wrote: "There comes a point in editing when you realize you've lost sight of the magic or specialness of the story. When you get to that point, when the story is so sanitized and chlorinated that what made..."

It is very easy to destroy the pacing, stripping the work of all of its sense of urgency by fluffing too much.

Charles wrote: "It is very easy to destroy the pacing, stripping the work of all of its sense of urgency by fluffing too much..."

And just as easy to destroy the pacing and devoid the characters of development by stripping too much away.

But you'll never achieve fluid, efficient, and effective prose by editing too little.

I find that maybe 5%-10% of editing is looking for grammatical mistakes and misused words. The vast bulk of it is looking at sentences critically to see what they actually say (as opposed to what you think they say, or what you wanted them to say), and then re-writing them to say what you intended. Or even re-writing sentences that actually did say what you wanted, but making them more efficient and evocative.

I don't know that there ever is a point in which you say that. I've been plagued with the same thing. It seems that steamy books have a different expectation of standards, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to keep them high. : )

V.M. wrote: "There comes a point in editing when you realize you've lost sight of the magic or specialness of the story. When you get to that point, when the story is so sanitized and chlorinated that what made..."

I agree. Once I edited a book to death and everything was flat. Pretty much dead. I kicked it back in the drawer until I could figure out how to breathe life into that thing. Still working on it now, fifteen years later...

Edward wrote: "Or you could just do what I do; write several books at once."

OMG so true there. I have several series going already to shake a stick at...