You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion

One of the group reads for August is The Aeneid by Virgil. Please discuss the book in this thread.

In order to receive a badge you must:
1. have completed the book before or during August 2015.
2. discussed it in this thread. Discussion must be more than "I read the book and I liked it". Discussion requires something more substantial and analytical of what you read, for example, thoughts, opinions, impact it had on you, what was your favourite part, was it what you expected it to be like etc. You may also like to review the book and post a link to the review in this thread.
3. Report that you have read AND discussed the book in the reporting thread.

General Rules:
1. Please mark your spoilers with the spoiler tags along with mentioning what stage of the book you are at so other's don't get a nasty shock. Chapter numbers/titles are generally best as they are the same across all formats and editions.
2. The book may be combined with the Year Long Challenge, Topplers, and Monthly Challenges.

Happy Reading!

I loved this book, I just read it earlier this year.

I found this link to excepts from 10 different translations: http://myplace.frontier.com/~joepye1/...

I ended up read the Robert Fagles version myself and thought it was wonderful. One of my favorite sections:
"Up to the sky an immense billow hoists us, then at once,
as the wave sank down, down we plunge to the pit of hell.
Three times the cliffs roared out from between the hollow caves,
three times we saw the spume exploding to spray the stars.
At last the sun and the wind went down, abandoned us,
broken men, our bearings lost...floating adrift
toward the Cyclops' coast."

I plan to read this. I have ordered the Fagles translation through Amazon, and it should be here Wednesday.

I nominated this book, and I'm glad to see it pulled ahead in the end. I, too, am going to read the Fagles. He did a good job translating the Iliad and Odyssey, so I'm going to guess that his is one of the best translations out there.

My copy of the Fagles translation arrived today. While waiting for it, I have been listening to the beginning of a lecture series on the Aeneid from the Teaching Company. So far I'm still listening to background lectures, but I've been reminded of a lot I had forgotten about Roman history. I've also learned things I never knew. I had not realized that most of what we know about the story of the Trojan War we learned from Virgil. The Iliad covers only a small part of the war near the end. The epics that told the rest of the story are lost. But everyone knew and remembered the story in Virgil's time, and he recorded a lot of it. Another thing I didn't know. On his deathbed, Virgil asked his friends to destroy the manuscript for the Aeneid. It wasn't finished, and he felt that parts of it needed a lot of work. Fortunately, Augustus ordered that the Aeneid not be destroyed.

I finished reading Book I. I am glad I have the Teaching Company course materials to help me understand what is going on. I think I would have understood most of it anyway, but it would have been more work. For example, at the end of Book I (view spoiler)[ Venus, who is the mother of Aeneas, sends cupid to Dido disguised as Aeneas's son, to make Dido fall in love with Aeneas. This also helps Dido get over her grief for her murdered husband. I'm not sure how well I would have followed what was going on if left to my own devices. (hide spoiler)]

I just started the Fagles translation last night, and even though I'm still in the book's infancy, I'm really enjoying it. I need to brush up on my Roman gods, though; I'm much more familiar with the Greek's.

Also, I'd like to see all modern action sequences written in dactylic hexameter, because that was the most engrossing shipwreck!

According to the lecturer I'm listening to, dactylic hexameter works really well in Greek, but is much harder in Latin. Part of Vergil's genius was making it work in Latin. Doing it in English must be something else again.

I do find myself wondering about the original lyrical pattern/ rhythm. In my own reading I stumble on the prose every once in a while. It's hard not to be curious about what Virgil's edit might have been. I think after reading it, I might pursue something academic regarding the poem. I like to form my own opinions before I seek out the informed consensus...

...unless I'm at a loss.

I have finished reading Book II. Wow. What a dramatic telling of the sack of Troy. Such dramatic imagery. How have I missed this epic until now?

It's always overlooked in terms of epics. We always think of Homer, but Virgil deserves to be thought of the same way imho.

I'm popping in and out of here. Not reading along this time, as I've studied The Aeneid three times in school and uni. But interested in seeing how you guys find it.

Fagels is considered to be the best translation still. My copy we needed as the text for my first Uni class we studied, is a prose translation, and I think it looses something as prose.

Homer certainly gets more exposure in American schools. I've never studied the Aeneid in school. I may have read a little bit of it in high school, but I'm not even sure of that.

I ran across this NY Times review of Fagles translation a few days ago and I've been meaning to share. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/boo...

They talk a bit about the style of poetry Fagles used in the translation.

I guess I am going to get a copy and check this out after I finish with Achilles. I read the article Dawn posted and there may be hope for me to make it through this book yet.

Good Luck to you Cherie!!

Dawn wrote: "I ran across this NY Times review of Fagles translation a few days ago and I've been meaning to share. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/boo...

They talk a bit about t..."

Thanks for sharing. It was interesting seeing parts of the Fitzgerald translation against Fables'.

For what it's worth, I find Fables translation a enjoyable read; it's odd, as someone who has read more Greek works than Roman, (I'm just finishing book 2) to see them as the enemy and not the hero.

I found the NY Times review very interesting. I loved the side by side comparison with parts of the Fitzgerald translation. It made me wonder if I should be reading that one instead. But I was very interested in the reviewer's explanation that Latin conveys so much information in each line that translating it to English requires either using longer or more lines, or sacrificing some of the information or connotations.

I have finished Book 3. I've taken a break this weekend to concentrate on Song of Achilles for a buddy read, but I expect to finish that today and start Book 4.

I am listening to the audio version. I thought it would be interesting since it I was probably meant to orated. I must confess that it is a little hard to keep track of some of the characters, but I like the way the language flows even in English. I love mythology, but am not as familiar with the Roman versions.

I have both the book and the audio version. I go back and forth. The book has a glossary of names in the back. I know some kind of booklet came with the audio book, and I have not looked at it, but it might have the glossary. The names are tricky. Particularly since some characters have more than one name. For example, Aeneas' son is named Ascanius, but sometimes called Iulus. I finished Book 5 last night.

Casceil wrote: "I found the NY Times review very interesting. I loved the side by side comparison with parts of the Fitzgerald translation. It made me wonder if I should be reading that one instead. But I was v..."

I thought it was a very informative review too. I attempted to read the Fitzgerald translation after I read the Fagles one but couldn't get into the flow like I did with Fagles. I think I'll try it again in a year or two and see if I still feel the same. I'd like to read a couple different translations to see if I get the same reactions.

Dawn, I'm impressed that you have finished. I'm still working my way through Book 6. (view spoiler)[ I've just passed Aeneis' encounter with Dido in the underworld. I thought he deserved the treatment she gave him. What a clueless man. He could have told her he loved her. (hide spoiler)]

I read it in March of this year actually, though I did finish it in 12 days. I loved it and couldn't stop reading.

I kind of thought Aeneas was clueless about a lot of things, though women seem to be a big one for him. One of my favorite sections of the book is about (view spoiler)[Dido: "I hope, I pray, if the just gods still have any power,
wrecked on the rocks mid-sea you'll drink your bowl,
of pain to the dregs, crying out the name of Dido
over and over, and worlds away I'll hound you then
with pitch-black flames, and when icy death has severed
my body from it's breath, then my ghost will stalk you
through the world!" (hide spoiler)] (from Book 5 or 6, I can't quite remember)

Actually, Dawn, I think what you have quoted is from near the end of Book 4. Unhappy Dido had quite a dramatic scene. Yes, Aeneas was clueless about a lot of things. He was always so concerned with doing the right thing and being dutiful, but he did not always seem to understand feelings, particularly other peoples'.

I just finished Book 5. And, I agree with those who find Aeneas clueless...or maybe I see him as more oblivious. The entirety of Book 5 underlines this. (view spoiler)[ As a reader, coming on the heels of Dido's suicide and burning of the city, the switch to Nationalistic celebration seemed jolting. (For a group of people who are refugees from their ransacked city, they have a lot of items with them). I like that Virgil highlights the women's dissatisfaction with life at sea, and that it splinters the Trojans. Dido's life isn't the only life that so abruptly uprooted, when the gods decide they want the Trojans to settle in Italy. (hide spoiler)]

So, did "Ready, Set, Go" originate here? Or, is it a bit anachronistic?

Oh, and I love this:

"Rumor, swiftest of all the evils in the world.
She thrives on speed, stronger for every stride,
slight with fear at first, soon soaring into the air
she treads the grounds and hides her head in the clouds.
...Rumor, quicksilver a foot
and swift on the wing, a monster, horrific, huge
and under every feather of her body - what a marvel -
an eye that never sleeps and as many tongues as eyes
and as many raucous mouths and ears pricked up for news.

It's hard not to compare this to The Odyssey. And, though I'm enjoying it I can see why Homer gets more attention with his tale of Odysseus (aka Ulysses). It's more emotionally investing to get behind Odysseus' drive to return to his wife and son, then Aeneas'/Jupiter's desire for the Trojans to begin the Roman Empire.

There is a lot more capriciousness to the gods in Virgil's tale then Homer's. (Forgive me if I'm selectively remembering this, it's been almost 20 years since I read The Odyssey). In The Odyssey, it's Odysseus decision to ignore the gods direction that leads to his trials/tribulations or the worsening of his situation, in his effort to return to Ithaca. So, far in the Aeneid, the Trojans are at the mercy of gods who are either in opposition to each other, causing mischief ("Juno brooding, scheming, her old, inveterate rancor never sated."), or in Jupiter's case, just not paying attention. I think this is Virgil's social commentary...as a follower of Lucretius, I think that makes sense.

Lynda wrote: "There is a lot more capriciousness to the gods in Virgil's tale then Homer's. (Forgive me if I'm selectively remembering this, it's been almost 20 years since I read The Odyssey)."

I'm not sure I have ever read all of the Odyssey. But the gods are certainly capricious and meddlesome in the Iliad. I've just finished Book 7. Juno causes no end of trouble.

It's very possible I'm miss remembering The Odyssey. It's been a while. I remember pettiness, but not so much the working at different purposes.

Yes Juno's a bit of a brat, isn't she?

It is interesting the extent to which gods interfere and the characters rely on "signs" or oracles or dreams. I wonder to what extent people in Virgil's time still believed that good or back luck was the result of a god's interference?

As for the gods working at cross-purposes, there is a lot of that in the Iliad, because many of the gods took sides. Each side had one or more fighters who had an immortal parent. Also, what started the Trojan War was Paris stealing Helen of Troy, but she was actually his prize or bribe for picking Athena over Juno as "most beautiful" in the judgment of Paris. Juno of course bore a grudge, and it extended to the Trojans.

I've always meant to read the Iliad, I should pick it up one I'm finished with The Aeineid.

In my intro, it mentioned the fact that Virgil was an Epicurean and followed Lucretius' teachings. The poem, On the Nature of Things, Lucretius essentially postulates atomic theory. Witnessing people "enslaved" by the whims of the gods, unable to ever appease them, he wondered if instead they created an ordered universe, made up of atoms or raw material. That cause and effect were at play, and not a god's emotion or ego.

I wonder if Virgil didn't play up the gods temperate nature based on his own philosophy?

Lynda wrote: "I've always meant to read the Iliad, I should pick it up one I'm finished with The Aeineid.

"I wonder if Virgil didn't play up the gods temperate nature based on his own philosophy?"

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Sorry, responding on my cell phone. What I meant was, I wonder if Virgil didn't play up the gods temperament based on his epicurean beliefs.

My understanding was that Virgil wrote this to please Augustus, as sort of a tribute to the founding of Rome and Julius Ceasar's descendants. I think he played up Juno's temperament and the nasty things she did to emphasize the heroism and steadfastness of the Trojans who overcame all of those obstacles and founded Rome. But I didn't know that about Lucretius. Maybe I will go back and read the Introduction at some point.

On to Book 10...

Book Seven was a slog for me, all those names. It reminded me of the be-gates in the Bible, or reading the Levitical law. I'm sure the roll call was exciting for those more familiar with Roman history/mythology than I am.

Anyway...to war!

I'm still trying to finish Book 9. I am getting awfully tired of hearing about battles, death and lamentation. The roll call of future heroes mostly did not mean that much to me, either, but I thought it was interesting that so much of the future was pictured on a shield. I think it was supposed to be a counterpart to a shield in the Iliad. After Achilles loses his armor, his mother gets a new set made overnight, and the shield is supposed to show the whole world.

I finished Book 9. I listened to the audio on my way home from work. The description of battle got much gorier than I had expected. I wasn't ready for brains splattering. I hope there is not too much more of that.

I'm finding these last few chapters a bit of grind. It's ironic that now that they've landed in Italy, I feel like the story is somewhat stagnant, despite all the uptake in actual action. I guess, from a perspective of reading this as fictional drama, and less as a historical account/mythological truth, I just don't care if the Trojans conquer the Latins, et al. We know they do, so there's not a lot of tension in the store, and you're right...it's pretty gruesome. I always though HBO went over the top with Rome, but I guess it's pretty accurate to the mythology.

I'm somewhere in Book 10 and you are right, it is a grind. The battle scenes seem like an endless account of soldier's hacking off other soldiers' body parts (hands, arms, legs, etc.) and grieving survivors. It seems like there are more and more names I either can't place or have trouble sorting out. I'm listening to it. I was reading parts of it early on, but now I'm just listening on my drive to and from work. I've started the next to last disc, so I expect to finish it this week.

I think I am enjoying your updates more than you are enjoying the book, Lynda and Casceil.

I'm in Book 11 now, and it is a hard slog. The earlier parts of the Aeneid were impressive, and I was swept along by the beauty of the language. The later books seem almost unrelentingly grim, alternating as they do between bloody battle scenes and descriptions of grief, lamentations, and burial rituals. There was a nice moment in Book 10, when a sea nymph that had once been one of Aeneas' ships came to find him and speed him on his way back to his son and people, with reinforcements, but it was just a little light in a sea of dark.

Driving to work this morning, and desperately not wanting to listen to the rest of this, I was contemplating picking up "Pompeii" to read over the next few days, but I feel like that would be admitting defeat, so I will carry on.

Cherie wrote: "I think I am enjoying your updates more than you are enjoying the book, Lynda and Casceil."

LOL!

I'm reading Book 11 tonight, I promised myself one book a night, and then I can read the book I'm loving right now. That's only 2 Books left, 2 days, then I'm done.

I agree, Casceil...I enjoyed it in the beginning, but then it just became this Nationalistic chart of names, lineage, and gods (yes and body parts, too). No wonder Augustus loved it so much, but I'm back to wondering what Virgil would have edited if he'd been able to complete it.

The one thing I'll say about the limitless list of names is there is a little something said about each man who dies, so at least if feels like meaningful loss, as opposed to modern battles where nameless herds of people are slaughtered.

I had to laugh, too, when the gods and goddesses are all whining at Jupiter, when he won't end the war in their chosen favor. His response is to leave it up to the Fates, despite his own push to bring the Trojans to Italy. Why not just leave the poor men with Dido, happily ever after?

Lynda, you may have the right idea. Maybe I will finish reading Book 11 tonight, get through book 12 tomorrow, and be done.

I ended up abandoning after book 4. I just had other books that I was more interested in although I have enjoyed reading the updates. I guess I won't be reading this months theme. The time just went by too fast.

Finished! Almost didn't read the last book tonight, but decided to get it over with.

It was...disappointing. I feel like the story peaked in Book 3 with Dido and never really held me sway after that. Even the trip to Hades (or whatever the Romans call it) was disappointing. Books 7-12 were highly repetitious, filled with lists of names, places, and ceaseless battles. Then, it just ends.

This one last passage struck me, and kind of sums up my whole experience with this work (emphasis mine):

Now what god can unfold for me so many terrors?
Who can make a song of slaughter in all it's forms -
the deaths of captains down the entire field,
dealt now by Turnus, now by Aeneas, kill for kill?
Did it please you so, great Jove, to see the world at war,
the peoples clash that would later live in everlasting peace?

Congratulations, Lynda. I've barely started Book 12, so I still have a way to go, but it's only about 30 pages, I think.

Congrats on sticking with it and finishing Lynda. Like Cherie, I've been enjoying reading the comments in this thread. Looks like it was a hard slog in the end.

I finished! I went back to reading a paper copy rather than listening, and I am glad I did. The last book had a lot going on, including more mayhem. (I would much rather skim past the description of one soldier setting another's beard on fire with a torch rather than listening to a dramatic reading about it.) The story does seem to end quite abruptly. I wonder how it would have ended if Virgil had been able to finish writing it. Anyway, all done.

Yay, Lynda and Casceil. You did it! I doubt if I will run out and pick up a copy right away, but maybe someday, if I need a book to slog through, it is on my TBR list.

I your updates did not give anything away, but I have an idea about what it will be like to read it, so - thank you both!

Yay, Casceil! I enjoyed batting the story around with you.

It's mutual, Lynda. I'm not sure I would have finished without the active discussion.