SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

I just re-read "Guilty Pleasures" and from the afterword it sounds like it might have been the first popular book to put out-in-the-open vampires and lycanthropes. Is this right?

I doubt it. Although you might have enough qualifications there to spin it that way. "Popular", "out in the open", "vampires AND werewolves" etc.

I don't recall exactly when Urban Fantasy was named as a specific offshoot from Contemporary Fantasy (late 80s, I'm guessing), but there were certainly stories, novels and movies which had all those elements beforehand.

If this was the first book actually labeled "Urban Fantasy," that might be a different argument.

Depends on what is meant as out in the open. And if the book needs to include both vampires and lycanthropes. if it requires both then I'd have to look more.

If it can just involve vampires being out, then it isn't the first. I don't know what would be the first. Though I see that Guilty Pleasures was first released in 1993. And Interview with the Vampire came out in 1976. And involved, as the title suggests, an interview between a reporter and a vampire. Of course the book is more focused on Lestat 'life' instead of the impact of vampires being known. Though I do vividly recall vampires being 'open' during . . . um, well, I don't recall the time period. Whenever it was that Lestat was in France. And saw a play. Where vampires feed before an audience. Of course, then you are back to the question of what is considered "out in the open".

A reoccurring theme. At least in two books. Having the vampires basically saying 'hey, we exist, feed us' in a way that people can say 'yeah, right, fancy trick' (having them be on the stage, having them be musicians who say they are, in fact, vampries).

I don't recall how open they were about being vampires, the ones in the play in France, but Lestat bluntly said he was a vampire, openly, to anyone and everyone who paid attention to music people. In that "The Vampire Lestat" book that came out in 1985.

What she said.

Also, I'm pretty sure Tanya Huff had a series with both vamps and weres which came out shortly before the Anita Blake series. I distinctly recall people doing the "If you like Huff, you'll like Hamilton" thing.

Plus, Charles De Lint, Emma Bull and that lot pretty much defined Urban Fantasy in the 1980s, giving rise to the term as a direct result of their work, but especially in De Lint's books about Newford, which was basically Ottawa. The milieu of a big city with the magic arising because of it was a feature, hence the "urban."

I feel like your title and your OP are in conflict with each other.

Urban Fantasy isn't limited to werewolves and vampires - so I'm guessing you're trying to figure out the first story that had out vampires &/or werewolves verses the "first urban fantasy."

I agree with Lexxi regarding Interview with the Vampire being older than Anita Blake.

If we were speaking of UF in it's entirety vs just the portions that are limited to vamps & weres...

I know Glen Cook's Garrett, P.I. series started in 1987. Sweet Silver Blues

Octavia Butler's Patternmaster is even older being released in 1976.

I think Jim Butcher's Dresden Files predates Anita Blake. Some don't consider Glen Cook's books UF because it's set in another world, but I think too many people define genres too narrowly. There's a lot more to UF than sparkly vampires.

Thanks everybody! I'll check out De Lint-- I live in Ottawa and I'd like to see the connections. :)

B.R. wrote: "I think Jim Butcher's Dresden Files predates Anita Blake. Some don't consider Glen Cook's books UF because it's set in another world, but I think too many people define genres too narrowly. There's..."

Anita Blake was 1993, Dresden Files was 2000.

Urban Fantasy does connote being in our world, but not strictly. I suppose it depends on how much it diverges. Once it becomes full-on Secondary World, the way most steampunk is, then I think it slips loose of Urban Fantasy and becomes something else, since Urban Fantasy is really a sub-genre of Contemporary Fantasy.

I don't actually know if the Anita Blake books were vastly more popular than other versions of Urban Fantasy like the stuff De Lint, Bull, Windling, et al, were releasing, but she made a big splash at the time. The caveat being that she was writing soft porn in the vein of Interview with the Vampire. So now a lot of people conflate UF with sex, when they actually mean Paranormal Romance.

One could make an argument that books like Carrie and Firestarter are Urban Fantasy, but that requirement that it take place in a modern city is a major one. ("Modern" being somewhat nebulous, of course.) For instance, the Sookie Stackhouse books are modern and Paranormal Romance, which can coincide with Contemporary Fantasy, but they are distinctly rural in setting.

Many zombie novels and movies are Urban Fantasy, too, but some, like the Walking Dead TV show, aren't, because the city doesn't play a major role. However, it looks like the spin-off series Fear the Walking Dead will actually take place in Los Angeles. Which puts them in different sub-genres, but their Venn diagram is pretty much a complete overlap except for "being in a city."

Yeah, the city part is something I noticed when I was looking at Gothic Horror as a forerunner of Urban Fantasy. Then I noticed 'so many' were actually set outside of cities. A lot in castles, if in towns, then towns of no more than 9,000 people. The first one, The Castle of Otranto by Horace Walpole, is set in a castle, not a city (1764).

Dracula (Bram Stoker, 1897) itself is in castles, and when over in England, is in a seaside town. I recall the movie including London, I believe, but the book involved Whitby England. A 'town' of 7,501 in 1891 (according to wikipedia). Well, that's where the ship crashed. I forget if they actually get into London or not.

Edgar Allan Poe's gothic horror was also not in cities.

Jane Austen's parody of the genre was also in a castle. Well, a former abbey. Northanger Abbey

Hmms. I've a vague idea The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (Robert Louis Stevenson 1886) might have been in London. Though I don't recall now.

B.R. wrote: "I think Jim Butcher's Dresden Files predates Anita Blake. Some don't consider Glen Cook's books UF because it's set in another world, but I think too many people define genres too narrowly. There's..."

I agree. I generally consider any book that are set in a Urban area UF (for the most part, there are [a lot of] exceptions).

The Patternmaster series (mentioned above) by Butler is currently shaping up to be one of the older UF's that I am familiar with. I really enjoyed the way Butler showed how the past can create the future. Publication order starts in pre-colonial Africa but the series "ends" in the city of Los Angeles.

I haven't reread Patternmaster yet this summer, but I have read Wild Seed recently, and Mind of My Mind and Clay's Ark last month and I'd call them science fiction, not urban fantasy.

Octavia E. Butler did write an unusual and worth reading vampire novel Fledgling, but it wasn't an early book of hers.

Tanya Huff's Blood Price her first Victoria Nelson novel came out in 1991.

But Mercedes Lackey who is better known for her high fantasy wrote three books about a witch solving crime beginning with Children of the Night.Children of the Night came out in 1990.

Charles de Lint doesn't usually write about vampires, but he has. Check out "There's No Such Thing" and "Sisters" in Waifs and Strays and there is a werewolf in "Trading Hearts at the Half Kaffe Café" in Tapping the Dream Tree. Novels of his I recommend: Trader, Someplace to Be Flying and Memory and Dream. If you like fantasy and you haven't read any Charles de Lint, please remedy that.

Julia wrote: "I haven't reread Patternmaster yet this summer, but I have read Wild Seed recently, and Mind of My Mind and Clay's Ark last month and I'd call ..."

I wouldn't consider telepathic mind control science fiction but I guess the fact that the people who had this telepathic mind control were essentially "bred" could count? Except the breeding was no different than what noble families have done (for the most part).

There is also the fact that the book considered #1 was written after #4 (which is the first book) and #2 is still the second book. I can barely remember Clay's Ark but the other three don't seem to involve science AFAIK.

I remember Lackey's UF series but I'd forgotten about it for a while. It sorta tapered out when it should have hit full steam. She also has a UF series that is based around race car driving and elves.

There is also the fact that the book considered #1 was written after #4 (which is the first book) and #2 is still the second book. I can barely remember Clay's Ark but the other three don't seem to involve science AFAIK.

In Clay's Ark people get infected with an alien microorganism, because Eli had been on a expedition to Proxima Centauri. Nearly everyone dies from this infection, but some live and pass it on. The survivors are in Patternmaster. This isn't spoiler- y (I hope) because most of what I reported came from the back of the paperback.

I remember Lackey's UF series but I'd forgotten about it for a while. It sorta tapered out when it should have hit full steam.

She stopped writing this series, if I remember correctly, then couldn't reprint it, because she had a stalker who made her life very difficult, around these books.

She also has a UF series that is based around race car driving and elves.

That sounds fun!

Jim wrote: "Thanks everybody! I'll check out De Lint-- I live in Ottawa and I'd like to see the connections. :)"

The specific book for that, then, is Jack the Giant Killer. I believe the Seelie Court is held under Parliament.

Also, the Tanya Huff Blood series takes place in Toronto and Kingston, so they're fun if you have any familiarity with those cities.

Julia wrote: "In Clay's Ark people get infected with an alien microorganism, because Eli had been on a expedition to Proxima Centauri. Nearly everyone dies from this infection, but some live and pass it on. The survivors are in Patternmaster. This isn't spoiler- y (I hope) because most of what I reported came from the back of the paperback."

Ugh. This bothers me. I read the series in pub order with Patternmaster being first. Considering Patternmaster started in Pre-Colonial Africa - it saddens me that she changed the history of the story with the later entry. IIRC, Patternmaster makes it clear that [redacted for spoilers].

ETA: Also, Lackey does this same thing but with character/government history. It also drives me up the wall.

If you like the Anita Blake books, I'd recommend the Skindancer series by Anthony Francis. "Frost Moon" is the first novel.

One thing I really appreciate about the series is that it's like hard science fiction but in an urban fantasy setting. There are science-like theories behind the magic, vampires, etc., though it doesn't hit you over the head with it. Very interesting.

Her first book wasn't bad, but Anita Blake quickly unraveled into paranormal porn more than anything else..

I like the idea that The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde might be the first urban fantasy, but I don't know. Wasn't it the result of a science experiment? That would probably make it science fiction.

Julia wrote: "I haven't reread Patternmaster yet this summer, but I have read Wild Seed recently, and Mind of My Mind and Clay's Ark last month and I'd call ..."

Charles de Lint is a master of modern urban fantasy. If you read MEMORY AND DREAM, you will never look at a painting the same way again.

Another one to read is the late John M. Ford. THE LAST HOT TIME is a brilliant novel, near future fantasy. THE DRAGON WAITING deals with historical discontinuity wherein you start in the court of Lorenzo de Medici and finish in the court of Richard III. The change of just one thing alters the the entire timeline of late 15th century Europe, and Ford never tells you what it is. You have to figure it out for yourself.

Charles de Lint got this particular ball rolling with Memory and Dream! Yes

I'd say Anita Blake is more of a paranormal romance. I don't know if it was the first of its kind, but it was the first one that I noticed as being particularly popular. It started off okay as a series and went downhill (pretty steeply, if I recall correctly).

Speaking of Blake - if you like that kind of work but want to avoid the porn-fest that Blake descends into - I would suggest Ilona Andrews' Kate Daniels series. It has vampires weres and a bit of romance BUT Kate stays closer to UF than Blake does. She never turns into a porn fest, the action stays harder and everything is relevant to the plot - including any relationships.

It's also better written that Blake and the Andrews allow their editor to edit.


Fair warning: I LOVE the Kate Daniels series so I am (more than) a bit biased.

MrsJoseph wrote: "Speaking of Blake - if you like that kind of work but want to avoid the porn-fest that Blake descends into - I would suggest Ilona Andrews' Kate Daniels series. It has vampires weres and a bit of ..."

I'm probably a bit biased too but I totally agree with you!!!

B.R. wrote: "I think Jim Butcher's Dresden Files predates Anita Blake. Some don't consider Glen Cook's books UF because it's set in another world, but I think too many people define genres too narrowly. There's..."

It doesn't. Anita Blake was first published in 1993. The first Harry Dresden one, Storm Front, was published in 2000.

Tanya Huff's Blood Price was published before, but I think it was marketed as horror than UF. Charles De Lint had published a few before, too, but I don't know how they were marketed.

Mercedes Lackey had a UF series, too, but I think it was marketed as a type of fantasy. I don't remember if it was called urban fantasy, but I don't think it was. And everything else by her is fantasy, so probably that's what it was called.

Bull had one, too, really good, don't know it was marketed.

I think the difference is the Anita Blake was the first really popular series that was called urban fantasy. It put urban fantasy as a genre on the map.

Sonia wrote: "Mercedes Lackey had a UF series, too, but I think it was marketed as a type of fantasy. I don't remember if it was called urban fantasy, but I don't think it was. And everything else by her is fantasy, so probably that's what it was called."

She has at least 2-3 UFs, maybe more.

But, unless someone can come up with someone else, I think Mercedes Lackey is going to win this one.

The Diana Tregard series 1st book (1989) isn't marketed as anything, the remaining two are marketed as "Dark Fantasy."

But, ML is very prolific. Her Bedlam's Bard series - clearly marketed as UF - was first published in 1990. She has UF books published in 1990, 1991 and 1992.

MrsJoseph wrote: "Sonia wrote: "Mercedes Lackey had a UF series, too, but I think it was marketed as a type of fantasy. I don't remember if it was called urban fantasy, but I don't think it was. And everything else ..."

True enough, but they are all set in the same world, so I suppose I was counting them as one series.

Was Bedlam's Bard marked as UF? I don't remember that. Dark fantasy could be right, though. I didn't read it in 1990, but about a decade later. I thought of it as UF.

War for the Oaks by Emma Bull was first published in 1987, and that's urban fantasy, too.

My copy has "AN URBAN FANTASY" written on the title page.

But the Diana Tregards have "dark fantasy" on the spine (except for book 1).

In 1986 Terri Windling edited the first Borderland: Where Magic Meets Rock & Roll . It's a shared universe, a city where human runaways and elf runaways meet and make music and other things.

MrsJoseph wrote: "Speaking of Blake - if you like that kind of work but want to avoid the porn-fest that Blake descends into - I would suggest Ilona Andrews' Kate Daniels series. It has vampires weres and a bit of ..."

Kate Daniels is by far my favorite UF :) Glad to see it getting a shout-out!

Jaleenajo wrote: "Kate Daniels is by far my favorite UF :) Glad to see it getting a shout-out! "




:-D

Well the question posed is whether it is the first of the Movement not the first Urban Fantasy. As with music the one who popularized it in many ways created the genre.

On my stupid chart that I'm still working on that I will post...someday...eventually. I had Anita Blake as the start of Urban Fantasy and also a strong contributor to PNR(which is like a 21st century revival of Gothic Romance)

Aaron wrote: "Well the question posed is whether it is the first of the Movement not the first Urban Fantasy. As with music the one who popularized it in many ways created the genre.

On my stupid chart that I'..."

I'd still say no. I'd say this thread shows there was plenty of popular UF out prior to Blake. Mercedes Lackey was one great example mentioned here and I remember reading her stuff back when it was released (Including the HORRIBLE binding job her publisher did with Jinx High. Ugh. Though I think Lackey maybe revisiting the series as she has a novella released in 2014).

Additionally, what seems to have made Blake popular are traits that are more in line with the Romance genre than Urban Fantasy: namely all of the sex and "romance." In fact, whenever someone suggests the Blake series to me they default to "You have to read about Jean Claude! He's so hot!" Most of my friends who read UF dislike those tropes/actions/plotlines immensely and avoid any books that even LOOK like they would be like Blake (unless they are romance readers, too. Like me).

ETA: I also keep forgetting to mention Charles De Lint. I haven't read him personally but he is mentioned in almost every UF conversation as THE UF author to read.

I distinctly recall people doing the "If you like Huff, you'll like Hamilton" thing.

I'm actually rather surprised anyone would say that. Although Huff's Blood series and Hamilton's Anita Blake series are both UF, I find them very different. Indeed, in my case I liked Huff but loathed Hamilton. YMMV.

I'll also say Charles De Lint. I read a copies of both Greenmantle and Moonheart quite literally to pieces back in the 80's. (1988 and 1984 respectively).

I've read (although possibly apocryphal) that he coined the term, but even if he didn't, he's definitely where I learnt it first - I distinctly remember seeing Greenmantle and Raymond E. Feist's Faerie Tale together on a shelf with a handwritten "Modern Urban Fantasy", when they came out, because I bought both together (the De Lint is so much better, but Faerie Tale is also most definitely urban fantasy.) And I remember asking someone at the store when I went back if they had anything more like those two and being handed a somewhat dusty copy of John Crowley's Little, Big (1981). I actually remember this specifically because two out of those three are in my top five ever books, which is a pretty good ratio for a book haul by anyone's standards. (And I don't really remember the Feist book, but I do know I liked it better than his straight fantasy, so it must have been pretty ok too.)

I'll also add I read Tanya Huff's Blood books before I'd ever heard of Anita Blake, who didn't really break in NZ until rather later - I think I didn't really start to hear buzz about those until there were 3 or 4 of them out.

Which is not to say that Blake didn't break out UF into a broader audience, sort of the way 50 shades broke out BDSM to the masses, but you'd be a little mad to say BDSM didn't exist before 50 shades.

MrsJoseph wrote: "Aaron wrote: "Well the question posed is whether it is the first of the Movement not the first Urban Fantasy. As with music the one who popularized it in many ways created the genre.

On my stupid..."

I would actually disagree - I don't think it was the romance that made it popular. There wasn't much romance in the beginning. Those of us who loved the first books did so for the mystery type story and fantasy world, the vampires, the vivid descriptions.

The romance didn't arrive until further books and the whole multiple boyfriend thing was still later.

here someone wrote a post on it: https://concretefantasy.wordpress.com...

Sonia wrote: "
I would actually disagree - I don't think it was the romance that made it popular. There wasn't much romance in the beginning. Those of us who loved the first books did so for the mystery type story and fantasy world, the vampires, the vivid descriptions.

The romance didn't arrive until further books and the whole multiple boyfriend thing was still later.

here someone wrote a post on it: https://concretefantasy.wordpress.com..."


So, I haven't have a chance to read the blog but I stand by romance elements.

I do know the first few are less porn but still...

I bought my copies of Blake second hand at a fundraiser. I was dithering about buying the series when one of the people volunteering showed up. She was really excited about the series and really wanted me to buy it.

I was suspect and that's when she started waxing poetic about Jean Claude. I found a handwritten card in my book(s) - listing every page that Jean Claude could be found on with special emphasis on the romantic times. ^.^

Krazykiwi wrote: "Which is not to say that Blake didn't break out UF into a broader audience, sort of the way 50 shades broke out BDSM to the masses, but you'd be a little mad to say BDSM didn't exist before 50 shades. "

You'd be mad to say that BDSM wasn't popular prior to 50 Shades, lol.

I've been reading SFF my entire life and I have to admit that I never heard of Blake until pretty recently.

The post doesn't talk that much about Anita Blake. It's more the history of the term, complete with citations at the bottom.

And if you had asked me, I would have gone on about legal rights from vampires, insurance companies that ask zombies about what happen in accidents, a mystery plot. Shifters who stay in the closet because of jobs, the really pretty descriptions.

She must have been a JC fan, his touchable laugh and all.

The first AB book didn't have very romantic scenes - it was more how he vamped a friend of hers to force to look into a vampire murder. Not romantic.

I don't think the first few were much better.

I read the first couple of Anita books, and thought they were ok, and just never got around to reading anymore. By the time I thought of getting back to them, everyone I know was ranting about how they'd turn into an erotica series and I never bothered. Not that I mind erotica particularly, I just kept hearing it wasn't even very good erotica!

I guess I just got lucky and managed to always avoid the JC fans :)

There seems to be several strands of UF that are now fairly typical, but back then, didn't mix.

- Authors who came at it from Light Horror/Dark Fantasy, transplanted into a typically urban or quasi-urban contemporary setting. I'd put De Lint, Feist, Crowley, maybe even Tanya Huff, into this category.

- Authors who came at it from a sort of a gritty contemporary noir mystery angle, and added fantasy elements, and usually quite a dose of humour, or at least irony. I'd put Jim Butcher, Mike Carey, and maybe the early Anita Blake here. And maybe the Kate Daniels books - despite the romance elements they feel a lot closer to this kind of book to me. Oh and stuff like Richard Kadrey's Sandman Slim books, and Charlie Huston. Grrrrrrrr Martin collected a pretty darn good anthology of these, if you like shorts or want to explore some new authors, but I'm not posting from my PC, so I can't add a link, and I can't remember the title. Something like "Mean Streets" I think? Has a Butcher story in it and a pretty thoughtful introduction which makes for interesting reading.

- Authors who sort of took the Romantic Suspense end of that second angle, and ran with it, ending up way far up on the PNR scale of UF/PNR crossover. And a lot of self-identifying UF fans either don't read this stuff, or consider the PNR label to be much bigger than the UF one. This would be everything from the category romance department, the later Anita Blake books, and most everything inspired by them and their undeniable success.

To be honest for me the line between UF and PNR is vanishingly small and I see it more as a continuum, but if it had to be drawn, it's somewhere between the second and third group. Ish. I know a lot of UF fans are pretty rabidly anti the PNR stuff, but I don't seem to see so much hostility coming back the other way.

Anyway, that's enough late night rambling for me.

Krazykiwi,

Mean Streets has one story written by Jim Butcher is indeed very good, but was published in 2009.

Earlier books in a shared universe that are less well known are Bordertown edited by Terri Windling from 1986. Life on the Border also edited by Terri Windling pub in 1991 -- which as a Charles de Lint story and the more recent Welcome to Bordertown edited by Holly Black from 2011.

The Horns of Elfland edited by Ellen Kushner from 1997.

These books tend to more interested in music, where the Anita Blake, and Victoria Nelson books started as mysteries.

Oh I was mixing books up in my head, now I am at my PC and can look them up properly. Mean Streets is indeed fantastic, but I was actually meaning Down These Strange Streets which is also more recent, 2011 (and isn't the one with the Butcher story in it even!).

BTW, I wasn't meaning to imply these were early examples, more that there's clearly different literary "genes" if you will, going into what we currently think of as UF. I guess the idea of a borderland between faerie and our word is another for that list. Where older books tended to be portal fantasies a la Narnia, with folks from our side going over to the other, sometime around when UF was coming into being, we started seeing more and more stories written the other direction.

Now I have to go find myself some copies of those other anthologies you mention!

I started a "no romance" UF listopia here:

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/7...

A lot of my friends and I want to read pure UF when reading UF so I started the list and it's got some good books.

If you see some that don't belong, please let me know.

Hmm, that's a tough one. "no romance". I mean, even Jim Butcher includes romance in his books. Just not, as far as I recall, sex.

ETA: If you have a "only add the first book in a series" requirement, I should note, especially with that "no relationships", that, while I don't specifically recall romance in the first Butcher book in the series, romance does become a major plot point in three ways. I can't really say without being spoiler-y, so I won't mention specifically what I mean.

Ditto Carrie Vaughn series. I don't specifically recall if romance is in the first book, but I know it becomes a major plot point at some point. There might or might not even be sex. I mean, there must be some reason I labeled them Paranormal romance instead of UF.

There is romance in terms of, a relationship develops and it is a major issue inside the book, within Seanan McGuire's "Discount Armageddon". Sex might not have been graphic, I don't recall, but I know it is mentioned - I recall the mice cheering.

ETA: While I haven't read the complete series for either series, I can say that I don't specifically recall romances/relationships in the London Falling series, nor in the Midnight Riot series. Though there is a certain amount of flirting in Midnight Riot. If I recall correctly.

So, there's two books that I believe lack romance. And are Urban Fantasy.

Aaronovitch's series has romance. I just remembered the lead character dates/has 'fun with' some of the river people.

Going over the series I've read:

Do not think it has romance:
Paul Cornell: London Falling?
Kevin Hearne: Iron Druid?
John Passarella: Grimm: The Chopping Block?
Thomas E. Sniegoski: A Kiss Before the Apocalypse?
Timothy Zahn: The Green and the Gray? (Is Science Fiction-y, though)

Has romance:
Patricia Briggs: Both Alpha & Omega, and Mercy Thompson have romance. Major plot point in both series.
Jim Butcher: The Dresden Files - mostly minor plot point except for a few occasions when it flairs up to a major plot point.
Dana Cameron: Fangborn
Gail Carriger: Parasol Protectorate has romance in it. I might be the only one who has labeled it UF, though, so it might not be an issue.
Bridget Essex: All have romance.
Alexis Hall: Kate Kane
Charlaine Harris: Sookie Stackhouse
Jae: All have romance.
Nikki Jefford: Aurora Sky: Vampire Hunter
Seanan McGuire: October Daye, "Discount Armageddon."
Meghan O'Brien: Wild
Winter Pennington: All have romance.
Anne Rice: The Vampire Chronicles
Robin Roseau: All have romance
Liz Schulte: Easy Bake Coven
Cherise Sinclair: The Wild Hunt Legacy
K.R. Thompson: The Keeper Saga
Carrie Vaughn: Kitty Norville
K.A. Young: Nephilim Warriors

Note: I added some that I do not, personally, view as Urban Fantasy, but that others might see them that way.

Jim wrote: "I just re-read "Guilty Pleasures" and from the afterword it sounds like it might have been the first popular book to put out-in-the-open vampires and lycanthropes. Is this right?"

One notes that out-in-the-open stuff generally is not typical of the genre. Usually we have the "masquerade" where the fantasy elements are hiding from humanity -- for in-universe reasons that normally are too weak to be called tissue paper, but for the out-of-universe reason to make it plausible as not another universe.

The first book I know of with out-in-the-open werewolves and vampires is Operation Chaos, first published in 1971. Mind you, the vampires are a throw-away joke, but the main character's a werewolf. And it's alternate in more than that.

Lexxi Kitty wrote: "Hmm, that's a tough one. "no romance". I mean, even Jim Butcher includes romance in his books. Just not, as far as I recall, sex.

I'm guessing the list is aiming for low romance, rather than no romance. A story might have romantic elements, but not in a way that makes it read like a romance novel. I'm mainly guessing this because a list of books where no one ever dates or has sex would be very short. Even most children's books have someone in a relationship (most protagonists are not artificially created in a lab and raised by robots).

A low romance example from the list would be Neverwhere, as the protagonist has a girlfriend. No one would call it paranormal romance, as it's not handled that way at all. But it's not completely free of relationship themes.

Though I think some of the titles might be more romancey than intended. The Mercy Thompson book I read wasn't one I'd recommend to someone looking to avoid romance. It also wasn't the first book, so maybe the first is romance free.

Yeah. I can remember a lot of urban fantasy with low romance, but little without it.

Polenth wrote: "Lexxi Kitty wrote: "Hmm, that's a tough one. "no romance". I mean, even Jim Butcher includes romance in his books. Just not, as far as I recall, sex.

I'm guessing the list is aiming for low rom..."

Re: "The Mercy Thompson book I read wasn't one I'd recommend to someone looking to avoid romance. It also wasn't the first book, so maybe the first is romance free."

Mercy and the next door neighbor, Adam Hauptman, flirt throughout. I forget if they actually go beyond flirting, but they do flirt. They send little love notes back and forth. Well, he sends notes like "PLEASE KEEP YOUR FELINE OFF MY PROPERTY. IF I SEE IT AGAIN, I WILL EAT IT" - yes in all caps. While she leaves her ugly horrible car positioned just right to piss him off. See, flirting.

She may or many not also flirt with a vampire in that first book (Stefan Uccello). I forget now. Though I know he is in it. The first book, I mean. Oh, and she might also flirt, live with, another werewolf in the first book. One Samuel Cornick.

Polenth wrote: "I'm guessing the list is aiming for low romance, rather than no romance."

Mary wrote: "Yeah. I can remember a lot of urban fantasy with low romance, but little without it."

Oh, forgot to directly answer this part. Yeah, I suspected the same, except that list literally has "No Romance" as one of the requirements. It's even in the list title.