THE Group for Authors! discussion

When asked what was the best and worst about authors' self-publishing experience, many of you said the editing was the worst part.

As an editor, I'm curious about what makes that a bad experience. Is it just the wait before being able to publish, or is it because a book that you hoped was finished now has additional work to be done, or...?

Maybe editors who read your responses can do something on their end to improve the experience so it's not so dreadful.

For me it is the redundancy of self-editing specifically. Generally, as I write (type) my fingers are flying over the keys at breakneck speeds. I do a re-read at the end of each chapter to tweak, spell check, edit grammar and sentence structure, etc. The problem is that I will find I may intend to type the word "by", when I am in such a hurry to get my thoughts on to paper, and typing 150 words a minute, I might type "buy" as the brain isn't slowing down to differentiate. When I re-read "buy", my brain knows the story, and knows that I mean "by", so it skips over the wrong word automatically inserting the one I intended to use. In other words I find that I am inept (to a degree) at editing my own work because if I have missing words or improper forms of a word my brain doesn't pick it up because I am too familiar with what should be there....does that make sense? It's probably due to ADD.

I'm a professional editor, and I KNOW I need an editor to check my work.

Molly wrote: "does that make sense?"

Molly, that makes perfect sense, and you're not alone. It happens to everyone. It is nearly impossible to edit your own work.

I keep trying - and failing. Lately I've even caught myself in the microsecond when it happens. I think I read a specific word on the page, then catch myself and back up and find that the word I "saw" is not there and I did not and could not have seen it.

I've known about this phenomenon for a while, but it's interesting to consciously catch it happening.

Don't feel bad when you can't make the text perfect. Just get it as good as you possibly can and then have someone else go over it.

You'll also be able to spot more of your errors the longer you wait before going over the manuscript. The less familiar you are with what you *meant* to say, the less likely you are to have the auto-replacement of the words mentally occur. (This has been humorously referred to as typoglycemia.)

:)

That is great advice Edward., and it makes sense. I'll try waiting it out before editing.
I'm therefore typoglycemic! ;)

Thank you.

I love the term tyopglycemia! Even if you wait a while, you'll still read your own material as it SHOULD be not as it is. Ask a friend who is a good proofreader to go over it for you. On our last book, I edited it. Then I had a friend who is a whiz review it. She found about a dozen issues. I figured it was good to go, but another friend asked if she could do a beta read. I asked her to let me know if she found anything, and she spotted another six! All of the last ones were minor, but needed to be corrected.

Lorna wrote: "I love the term tyopglycemia! Even if you wait a while, you'll still read your own material as it SHOULD be not as it is. Ask a friend who is a good proofreader to go over it for you. On our last b..."

I had much the same experience. The first time I was surprised that I missed a typo, but fortunately, the second set of eyes caught what I had missed. But then a third person found even more. Surely that was the end of this insanity. So I published.

The first sale went to a co-worker who had been waiting for the book to be available. When I saw him at lunch time, he said, "I found an error in your book."

I was mortified. It still had errors! And even worse - it was out there in the world for people to see in imperfect form!

I couldn't wait to get home and fix it. I wanted to feign illness just to leave early.

Later, I published in paperback, thinking I'd learned my lesson. But right at the end, I decided to modify the back cover - and not have it proofed.

The first printing was promised to a friend. When I got it, I drove to her workplace, so proud to give it to her. She hugged and went to take it to a back room. She came back out looking like she'd just been given terrible news.

"I'm sorry to have to tell you this," she said.

I was morbid with curiosity. What could be wrong? And what did it have to do with me?

"There's a mistake on the back cover," she said, with sadness in her eyes at having to be the messenger of such bad news.

I ran screaming from the building and was run over by a multitude of cars on the busy boulevard outside.

But seriously, have has many people proof your work as you can possibly get. And if you change something, anything, have someone look it over, no matter how stupid it feels.

You can usually find a person near an offramp who is currently between homes, holding a sign: "Will Proof For Food. God bless."

:) I always blame it on the Menehune, but that's because we set our mysteries in Hawaii. They're sneaky little devils!

For me it's the extra work (some of it is brain-numbingly tedious). I was up til 2a last night removing 200 instances of the word 'was' (started with 330). Can I gouge out my eyes now?

It's downright frustrating when you've got a deadline looming and still need to write new scenes for character development.

Today I'm working on changing passive voice to active. I feel like I'm chasing my tail, or Hammy from Over The Hedge: "It never ends. IT NEVER ENDS THAT WAY, TOO!"

I don't mind line edits. It's the tedious stuff (tics, passive voice, etc) that makes me want to re-enact the jellyfish scene from Seven Pounds.

Hahaha Ann, laughing reading your post because I was doing the same thing all morning this morning - changing the voice - 6 chapters worth. UGH!

I was trying to find a post I read earlier in the day by another author who said that by the time they were done proofing and editing they couldn't stand their own story any more, so much so that they couldn't see how someone else could like it. -What a relatable post. That is about where I'm at.

Molly, I saw that post this morning too!

Thankfully I haven't gotten to that point. I just want to publish it already and share it with the world, flaws and all. That's the type of person I am in real life "Here I am, rainbow stripes and all, and I'm awesome! Now love me."

I think the novel I'm editing right now is trying to communicate with me. I have it up in Scrivener with the word frequency tool open. The words "up" and "yours" are right next to each other.

Molly wrote: "another author who said that by the time they were done proofing and editing they couldn't stand their own story any more, so much so that they couldn't see how someone else could like it. -What a relatable post. That is about where I'm at. "

That was me on the Best/Worst thread.

After that phase, where I'm hating the entire piece, I publish it and have no idea anymore of it's good or not.

The majority of people tell me my writing is great, and my mental response is, "Really? It's just me sayin' stuff. I don't see how it could possibly be great."

But I just smile and say, "Thanks!"

I don't know about the other arts, but I'm convinced that writers cannot be objective about their own writing.

When I got an editor for my first book, I went with a friend of my uncle. I did a little checking up, looking up her website and everything. But I didn't have any idea what to expect from the editor-author relationship or what specific levels of editing we were talking about.

It turned out that my first book was a disaster, helped in no small part by an editor who obviously didn't know what they were doing. Several other editors have looked as the work since and they have all asked me if I was sure it had been edited.

Close to the end of working on the book, communication with the editor started to fail, which was a red flag for me, but the payment had already been made and I had already seen work done on the story. I asked what she thought of the story as a whole, got no answer. I saw an interview she did where she listed what her current projects were and the only thing which would have been my work was what she called a "middle-grade" work. I asked what that meant and got no answer.

I only recently found out what a "middle-grade" work is (Bascially a kid's book) and that is not what I had in mind for my work. I don't know if her pigeon-holing my work thusly is the excuse for the poor editing job I got, but the end result was a debut book that I had to pull from sale after seven months and that left me in a hole to drag my name out of for future works.

I hope no one minds me joining this group as a non-author. But as an editor, I'd like to know if there's anything I'm doing that would be considered a bad thing by an author, and I'm curious to see the responses here as the thread grows.

I try my best to communicate promptly and do the work in a timely manner. Beyond that, I only know that I like my authors and they seem to like me.

If I'm doing anything irritating, I want to know it.

I've had good luck with editors but my first encounter was a small disaster. I was pretty green and suggested a 500 up front and a 500 on completion schedule to an experienced editor. Oops. She was so insulted that she let me have it. It stung at the time because, as I said, I was pretty green. She said something like "only if you add a zero on the end", which seemed a little unnecessary.

I had a thought that editing is sort of the flip side of reviewing, a subject that has been thoroughly aired recently on these threads. The difference is, the editor is telling you about the shape and scope of your book before it is published, before the cement hardens.

Are you saying she charged you 5000 to edit a book? Line editing? I'm stunned. That's way more than I charge.

I'm both, a writer and editor. I do so much revising of my work, I catach a lot of my typo's on each round. And yet, can you believe, I STILL find mistakes. But, I'm not bragging when I say I have very few in my books, fewer than most others I've seen. Still, the fact that I miss anything after the dozens of readings/revisions is more proof that you can't edit your own stuff.

Hi Marcy. No, she did not charge 5,000. I guess I phrased that wrong. Bad edit? LOL. My first encounter with an editor was with this lady. I suggested 500/500 and she was insulted with the offer. I moved on and eventually found two editors who were lovely to work with who charged between 500 and 5,000 (but closer to the first figure).

Incidentally one of them was from the service Elance. I liked Elance. You can search through their stable of people with pretty specific search terms. The editor I found there had exactly the right mix of training and experience. It was like we were made for each other.

My agreement with my authors is that the work ALWAYS belongs to the author, and my suggestions are just that: suggestions. I do concept as well as line editing. (I don't know how to just line edit. My husband says I'm CDO. That's OCD, but with the letters in alphabetical order--as they SHOULD be!) I don't charge nearly that much, and even less for authors published by my publishers.

Nice OCD comment, Lorna! Reminds me of that advocacy group called "DAM". Mothers Against Dyslexia.

Having done my share of article editing for others, I was pleasantly surprised at how much more satisfying a book edit was…it's more like a long term relationship, give and take, call it what you will. I didn't take ALL suggestions, but certainly took the majority. Perhaps 95% of the mechanical suggestions and perhaps 80% of the concept suggestions.

Robert, you're right about relationship building. I have edited several books for the same authors. Sometimes the chemistry is just wrong--especially when the manuscript has major issues and the author simply doesn't understand what the problems are. (POV seems to be a current mystery to some of them!) Nevertheless, when we're a good match, we both end up very happy with the results.

Lorna wrote: "Robert, you're right about relationship building. I have edited several books for the same authors. Sometimes the chemistry is just wrong--especially when the manuscript has major issues and the au..."

It really is a joy when the match is a good one. I would never give anything less than my best, but it sure is nice when it's fun, too.

Shaun wrote: "When I got an editor for my first book, I went with a friend of my uncle. I did a little checking up, looking up her website and everything. But I didn't have any idea what to expect from the edito..."

Damn, that sucks, Shawn. I've heard of several similar cases. In fact, the first book I edited had already been edited by a firm in New York. The book hadn't even been proofread, much less edited. There's no way they could've done more than run spell-check on it, if that.

I guess you learned since then to get samples, ask questions up front, and get several quotes.

Robert wrote: "Reminds me of that advocacy group called "DAM". Mothers Against Dyslexia."

LOL

That reminds me of the rallying cry:

Dyslexics of the world, Untie!

For me it is reading what you think you've written rather than what is on the page, 'fist' instead of 'first' or comma's where not needed etc. Hate it, it is almost impossible to edit your own. Being illiterate to my very late teens I struggle! I didn't know I was dyslexic until I went to a toga party dressed as a goat!

I self Edited my first book and while it wasn't spectacular it wasn't completely awful either. My Next one I paid an editor I found online $400 and the results were worse than my first book. On top of that my book was held ransom till I paid the remainder of the fee. Not that I wasn't going to pay it but I wanted some sort of proof it was actually being edited. My third was edited by an old friend that use to edit my work when I wrote for a couple magazines. This was for free as a favor. My biggest issue with Editing is finding a editor that isn't going to financially ass rape me to do it and actually provide some quality.

Stephen wrote: "I self Edited my first book and while it wasn't spectacular it wasn't completely awful either. My Next one I paid an editor I found online $400 and the results were worse than my first book. On top..."

Stephen, you should be able to get free evals (and/or see samples of an editor's work) from any editor worth his salt. The more, the merrier, I say—and it gives you many to choose from. Prices vary so, so much, but you should be able to find someone who will do what you need without demanding that you hand over your bank account numbers as well as your firstborn.

One or the other, perhaps, but not both. :)

Lynda wrote: "you should be able to find someone who will do what you need without demanding that you hand over your bank account numbers as well as your firstborn.

One or the other, perhaps, but not both. :)..."

I understand that now. while I am finishing my next book I am looking for editors. I won't blindly just hand over my work and a big check just and wait for it to return. Unfortunately this has been a learning experience for me. Back when I use to write articles for magazines I use to bang it out and then hand it off and it would end up in print all edited and clean. I am still looking for my Editor Genie!

After reading some of the threads here, I'm appalled by how many people have had bad experiences with editors.

Saddened, too, because many SPAs don't have money to throw away, and end up spending it on the same product more than once.

Grrrrr...

Lynda wrote: "After reading some of the threads here, I'm appalled by how many people have had bad experiences with editors.

Saddened, too, because many SPAs don't have money to throw away..."

It is a sad truth that there are those that will take advantage of someone just because they unfamiliar with all aspects of the game. What i have also found is there are those that are willing to help and those that really don't want to. Sometimes it feels like High school and the cool authors don't want anyone sitting at their table. :-)

Stephen wrote: "I self Edited my first book and while it wasn't spectacular it wasn't completely awful either. My Next one I paid an editor I found online $400 and the results were worse than my first book. On top..."

That's horrible. I'm not currently taking on any new work, but maybe by the time your next book is ready, I'll have some openings.

Also, check multiple editors. Get recommendations. Get sample edits from multiple prospective editors and compare their work and prices.

I'm sorry you learned the hard way, but I'm sure you won't let it happen again. :)

Stephen wrote: "Lynda wrote: "After reading some of the threads here, I'm appalled by how many people have had bad experiences with editors.

Saddened, too, because many SPAs don't have money to throw away..."

It..."

There will always be those who chose to make their living by taking advantage of others any way they can. I've seen enough scammers here on Goodreads to know that for a fact.

The more dangerous people though, I think, are the ones who don't know they're effectively scamming people. They may have experience working with legal documents, instruction manuals, and/or magazine articles; and they think that experience easily transfers over to editing novels and fiction. It doesn't. These people aren't trying to fleece the public, but their own ignorance and arrogance prevents them from seeing the damage they are actually doing.

Robert, I've used ELance as a freelancer and they mostly suck. Except for one short term job, I've never gotten anything. Their clients' payments are way low and always tell me I charge too much--plus you have to charge enough to pay them a percentage.

Maybe I too have OCD: No matter how I try I can't just line edit, I'm always commenting, suggesting revisions, moving stuff around, fixing grammatical though I too tell the authors the last word is theirs. They usually love what I do, so I rarely have a problem. I'm amazed to hear about all this bad editing going on. My guess is that people figure it's a way to make a buck, of course; and they think what they do is okay. They can't possibly enjoy the work if they do it so badly. I love editing, sometimes I love it more than writing because there is much less anxiety attached to it.

Stephen, I'm busy with two jobs at the moment, but try me when you're ready. I should be free by around May.

Marcy, I never worked for ELance, but for everything else, ditto ditto.

I'm with you, too, Marcy. I can't just correct a typo and ignore a sentence that's structurally incorrect. I always figure people will blame the editor for "not noticing" things like that (since most won't know a line editor from a content editor), and I don't want to take the heat. Plus, I want the author's book to be seen at its best. Why wouldn't I?

I signed up with Elance and took a bunch of their tests, but have yet to get a job through them. Most people don't seem to want to pay a reasonable amount, or they're too vague on what the job entails for me to put together a bid. There's an option to contact the client for more details before submitting a bid, but the few times I've done that, I've never received a response at all. Thankfully, I'm busy enough that I don't need to keep looking for work there, but I feel like a loser when I look at my profile and it shows I've won no jobs.

As far as the hacks out there, I guess it shouldn't surprise me that people have a love-hate relationship with editors in general.

Lynda wrote: "I can't just correct a typo and ignore a sentence that's structurally incorrect."

Same here. If I'm on a proofing job, it drives me crazy. I have to at least make some comments.

Interesting to read these comments about eLance. Now I feel luckier than ever! In my case I put together a description of what was needed and type of book, and put a figure down. When I found the right person we talked it over and the price got negotiated up 50%, and I was the one who suggested the raise.

After that relationship building it worked out perfectly. I guess it's because I've done contracting and sub-contracting all my life and I'm very familiar with the problems that come with dirt-cheap labor. As is said in the construction trade "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys".

Robert wrote: "Interesting to read these comments about eLance. Now I feel luckier than ever! In my case I put together a description of what was needed and type of book, and put a figure down. When I found the r..."

It is nice to hear a success story from there. And I'm sure at least part of it is because you're familiar with the "get what you pay for" scenario and knew how to avoid it. One of the authors I recently worked with (also a businessman) actually negotiated with me for a higher price, saying I was underselling my services compared to other editing agencies he'd used. I won't lie: that felt pretty good.

Lynda, I am continually amazed at the number of people on the interwebs listing tiny suggested fees, and even more amazed that there are people who apparently hire them. A marriage made in heaven!

Robert wrote: "Lynda, I am continually amazed at the number of people on the interwebs listing tiny suggested fees, and even more amazed that there are people who apparently hire them. A marriage made in heaven!"

It does make it difficult to convince people that the "nothing over $50" offers are generally not a good deal when all is said and done.

I'd like to know this: for authors out there who have had bad (really bad, like wreck-your-book-and-bank-account bad) editing experiences, did you report the editors to anyone? And if someone asked you about that editor, were you able to steer that person away from a bad deal without fear of retaliation?

Unfortunately the one bad experience I had I didn't bother to report it not that I knew there was someplace to report it to. I just chalked it up to experience and moved on. I also noticed that he has since pulled down his web site and apparently moved on to some other scam. (Wishful thinking on my part I guess. I would hate to see another author get what I got.)

John wrote: " One week after republishing through Smashwords late last year, I realised that on page 5, would you believe, I found the word "write" spelled "wite". People I am not kidding. There is not even such a word in the English language. What happened to all the many hundreds of Word spellchecks, the many pairs of eyes, the many hundreds of times that I had been through it myself."

That continues to amaze me when I'm editing for others or writing for my blog. For all the times MS Word tells me my "its/it's" usage is incorrect (and it's actually correct), it doesn't catch blatantly wrong non-words every so often. Not a red squiggly line in site. No green grammar squiggle to say, "This doesn't make sense," either. I never trust the spell-check features, especially when they conflict with my trusty Webster's.

I typically catch the dumb stuff during the final proof, and I always have to go back to my first-round edit to see if I really did miss it, or if the author changed something during the in-between time. Sure enough, it was there all along and I'm left wondering how tired I was when I read it the first time.

John wrote: "Getting back to proofing, I self published a 160,000 word paperback in 2004, and over the years, and through e-book editions starting in 2009 there have been many hundreds of eyes looking over the ..."

You know John, as a self-publishing author my fear is that misspelled words, grammatical errors, and funky prose, will distract my readers from the story line of my book and make me look stupid...or hasty. I do my best to weed as much of it out as I can, usually enlisting several pairs of eyes to read and re-read. But just yesterday, as I was finishing a book published by a top publishing house, a NY Times best seller I finally realized that I have never ever ever read a book that didn't contain a handful of errors (misspelled words, words crammed together with no space where there should be one, the wrong character referenced). I don't think it is possible.

seeds of wisdom John.

You know what always makes me feel better about this kind of stuff? One time on Pinterest I saw a picture of this guy's new tattoo on his arm. 2 simple words that make me laugh hysterically and still wonder if it is purposeful word play...."No Regerts" (yes, I spelled it that way on purpose)!

I think the worst thing about editing (self editing anyway) is the third and subsequent edits. Especially for something book-length rather than a short story.

I always finish a book, put it away for a few weeks, and then open it back up new. That first edit is exciting. It has taken me long enough to write (and it sat unopened so long) that it is new and exciting. There are usually huge revisions here, so the second edit is still somewhat novel.

By the third edit, I'm getting sick of my book. By the fourth, I never want to see it again. This is when I write the pitch, so I have to go back and remember what I liked about it the first time I edited it. It wouldn't do to make the pitch, "Please read my book so I don't have to see it ever again."

Oren wrote: " It wouldn't do to make the pitch, "Please read my book so I don't have to see it ever again." "

LOL

I know exactly how you feel. And then after that fifth revision, someone tells you, "Hey, I spotted some typos in your book."

John wrote: "It seems we have to be better than the mainstream to get accepted..."

Yes, as SPA's our readers demand that are books are flawless. Not one spelling error, typo, or misuse of "to" instead of "too" is allowed. Or else we get lumped into that group that is just trying to take money from readers pockets.

Robert wrote: "As is said in the construction trade "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys". "

Ooh, I love this quote! I am totally stealing it to use as needed!

Molly wrote: "I have never ever ever read a book that didn't contain a handful of errors (misspelled words, words crammed together with no space where there should be one, the wrong character referenced). I don't think it is possible. "

I disagree; it IS possible to publish an error-free book. I say this because when I was younger, perhaps even up until, say, 20 years ago, most books didn't have errors. The New Yorker rarely had errors, but today they have many. I attribute this to (1) some places not hiring enough editors, maybe even NONE; and/or (2) people just not being as careful or caring as they used to be, and to whom it just doesn't matter like it used to, when it comes to the written word. I'm afraid of sounding stuffy, but I might add, "They don't have a sense of sanctity for the written word."

Two cents:

Reading through this thread's comments - and looking at the initial thread question itself - I think the high-level response may be, "Even though I'd love my work to be as pristine as possible, I'm willing to accept the reality that less-than-stellar editing can occur, either on my part or another's, compounded by potentially less-than-stellar initial writing."

Expecting excellence is not a problem, of course, but getting hung up on the minutiae of grammatical doodabs can become a hindrance. (So can self-flagellation.) Editing your own work is damn hard, unless you put it aside for awhile, and grow a lot in the interim. Personally, I find the larger lesson here to be: accept oversights, and do it gracefully. Best way to learn.

I do my own editing - I can't afford to pay a proofreader - and on the whole quite enjoy it. Though it does seem to be tied in with your emotional state; one day you can read a chapter and think, "That's really rather good," while the next day you'll wonder why you ever supposed you had talent.

There do seem to be more typos in books today - even those printed by reputable publishing houses. One of the reasons why I didn't continue reading Game of Thrones past the first book was the vast number of typos; there seemed to be one on every page. I'm not normally that picky but it kept yanking me out of the story and proved a real deal breaker.