SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Hi. I've been reading mostly fantasy novels and I've been steering clear of sci-fi as much as I can. My only experience reading sci-fi would be Dragonflight by Anne McCaffrey and The Memory of Earth by Orson Scott Card. They were ok but they're not really stuff I'd actively seek out.

I was chatting with a friend of mine about how I like fantasy books with a lot of political maneuvering. I like to refer to them as the king's court dramas or the Game of Thrones type stories. My friend suggested the Dune series by Frank Herbert.

I've known about Dune from playing the RTS video game that was based on it and I know it's a sci-fi classic. As a fantasy reader, just how much do you think I'll enjoy Dune, considering I normally try to stay away from sc-fi? Does it have enough fantasy elements so that I won't be "shocked" into too much sci-fi than I'm used to?

Do you know what it is that you don't like about SF? That might be helpful :-)

Dune isn't the bug-eyed monster/alien type of book, and while there are some spaceships, they're just transportation. There aren't long-winded explanations of the physics of spaceflight etc. There is definitely very religious/political/environmental maneuvering- similar to ASOIAF in number of characters etc., but much more complex.

I would give it a shot- if you don't like it you've only lost a bit of time, but it sounds like the type of book you might like.

I guess I wouldn't mind the sci-fi nature of Dune then. Those things you mentioned that it doesn't have are the type of stuff that I just don't want to read about. Since Dune doesn't have them then it's good.

The reason why I could read Memory of Earth and Dragonflight was that it didn't shove sci-fi in your face the way the more hardcore novels do. As much as possible I want to keep my books in the realm of simpler technology the way fantasy usually does. But if it doesn't shove laser beams, aliens and robots in my face then I can probably live with some sci-fi.

Dune is definitely not hard sci-fi. Look at how people have shelved it--most people have it as sci-fi, but it's also on a high number of fantasy shelves.

It's very much an epic. Like Jen said, while it has space travel and weapons, those both have a sort of fantasy feel to how they work.

From what you say you like, I'd think that Dune is a really good bet for you. Best part, it's been around so long that you can probably find it used for cheap. ;)

If you like power struggles and political maneuvers Dune is the perfect series for you. I also don't like sci-fi. One of the reasons Fantasy is so great is because it eliminates all technology and can focus solely on what it means to be human.

What I really find lacking in sci-fi is the nature component. This isn't an issue for Dune because while Dune happens to take place on a different planet it is a well-developed planet with a strong sense of nature. If anything, Dune feels more like fantasy than sci-fi to me.

I agree. DUNE itself was seminal. The second and third books, meh. You will find the new series (written I think by the son) much less worth while.

Guess Dune deserves a spot in my reading list! Thanks!

Dune is a LOT mental development and a little SciFi. Nothing in the story can be classified as "magic" (although the mental abilities get a lot of leeway and border on magic). There are physical gee-whiz weapons (no long explanations), as well as knife fights, but with powered shields.

If you're hard-core fantasy, you won't like it. No dragons, just people and strange ecology (with giant worms that can swallow a house or a transport the size of a helicopter).

I really think every fantasy or sci-fi fan should give Dune a shot. I read all 5 in that series, and it's the best. Hey, it won the Hugo or Nebula!

Dune itself won BOTH the Hugo and the Nebula awards. The rest of them didn't excite me, but that's a matter of taste.

awesome :)

I loved the whole series of six, and would say that Dune is one my top ten favourite books. I would classify it as Sci-Fi rather than fantasy, but the focus is always human nature rather than sci-fi.

There is a lot of "hard science" in Dune, but it is presented the way it should be in good SF, as a natural part of the world and society.

- hovering drone assassins
- chemical weapons
- body shields that respond to velocity and not simply impact
- sonic weapons that amplify and focus the human voice to deadly levels
- genetic manipulation
- long range environmental modification
- societal manipulation through the scientific use of planted legends and prophecies
- anti gravity devices used in a household setting
- capture and extraction of drinking water from the body's perspiration and powered by movement
- use of atomic weapons
- implanted mental conditioning
- modifying humans to serve as computers - mentats
- biochemistry, life extension and economics - the "spice"
- epically giant spaceships and interstellar travel
- artificial languages to circumvent bugging - the husband and wife assassin team.
- a society that rejects artificial intelligence/robots

I'm sure there's more, but it's been a while since I re-read it.

Exactly. There are not long chunks of techno-dump, while the author holds up everything to explain to you how the star drive works or how sand worms mate. It is more like STAR WARS, where the thing keeps on trucking and you just see the taun-tauns go by in the middle distance.

V.W. wrote: "There is a lot of "hard science" in Dune, but it is presented the way it should be in good SF, as a natural part of the world and society.
- sonic weapons that amplify and focus the human voice to deadly levels

The sonic weapons were in the first film version (so-called "wierding modules"). "The Voice" or "The Wierding Way" is what populated the book -- a matter of Ben Geseret training.

I watched the movie about 10 years before finally reading the book. I thought both were great. I thought the second book by Herbert was alright, but after that they really went downhill. The last one was pretty bad, I thought.

Al wrote: "V.W. wrote: "There is a lot of "hard science" in Dune, but it is presented the way it should be in good SF, as a natural part of the world and society.
- sonic weapons that amplify and focus the hu..."

You're right. As I said, it's been a long time. But still a scientific concept. Sort of a mixture of neurolinguistics and the ultrasonic/subsonic effects on human behaviour and emotion.

Greg wrote: "I watched the movie about 10 years before finally reading the book. I thought both were great. I thought the second book by Herbert was alright, but after that they really went downhill. The las..."

Never read the others. A lot of people panned the "new" Dune prequel books by Brian J Herbert and Kevin J Anderson but I found them to be quite interesting in that they filled in a lot of the background only suggested in Dune.

Potential readers are warned of lots of data dumps. But at least we get to find out what the Butlerian Jihad was all about and why they hate artificial intelligence.

V.W. wrote: "Greg wrote: "I watched the movie about 10 years before finally reading the book. I thought both were great. I thought the second book by Herbert was alright, but after that they really went downh..."

You know, after reading the first couple books I wanted to read the new ones his son wrote. But after reading the last couple of the main series I lost interest.

I really should go back and read a few of those. After looking at these covers my interest is especially piqued.

I read the first of the prequels but it really didn't grab me. Written okay, story okay, interesting to see the expansion of the Dune universe, but...

Frank Herbert has a depth to his creation that never ceases to astonish me, and almost a brutality towards his characters in his exploration of the nature of humanity.

Quite apart from anything else, he created a story that spanned thousands of years without making it seem technologically absurd.

Francis wrote: "I read the first of the prequels but it really didn't grab me. Written okay, story okay, interesting to see the expansion of the Dune universe, but...

Frank Herbert has a depth to his creation tha..."

Oh quite, the new books are not great reading, but interesting if you are a serious fan. I do think they are better than the other books of the original series because they enrich and build around the initial Dune story and world rather than charging off in strange directions.

Dune was the first book of any genre that made me go "Oh Wow!" and to read it over and over, without getting bored. One of the great things about it is, as you pointed out, it's very realistic brutality and recognition of how very callously humans treat each other on the big scale, even when they are fairly normal, caring people on a one to one basis. Even Baron Harkonnen had his favourites that he cared for.

Herbert also had a very wide, and long scale of vision, almost Oriental, which was what separated Dune from the Golden Age space operas. Plans for conquest and vengeance and revolution that spanned periods counted in lifetimes and generations and not years.

Regarding the deteriorating quality of the subsequent books, I totally agree. I think it points out the difficulty for authors to consistently hit home runs with their books. The first Dune book was a fantastic creation: inventive and radically different from other scifi books at the time.

Mark wrote: "Regarding the deteriorating quality of the subsequent books, I totally agree. I think it points out the difficulty for authors to consistently hit home runs with their books. The first Dune book wa..."

Indeed. Which is why I am very hesitant to engage in writing an extended series of books even when the published ones are well received.

It is also never a good sign when the son, or daughter, or other second person picks up the series. The odds that writer #2 are as good as #1 are pretty well zero.

Brenda wrote: "It is also never a good sign when the son, or daughter, or other second person picks up the series. The odds that writer #2 are as good as #1 are pretty well zero."

Very true. Hard to think of a successful handover, so to speak.

I can only think of one: Alexander Dumas. Nobody else.

I think you should definitely give Dune a try. It is not full of wizards, witches, and elves, but it is on a planet (not a space opera) and has fantastic creatures and interesting cultures. No harm done if you don't finish it, but I think you will.

Angelof wrote: "Hi. I've been reading mostly fantasy novels and I've been steering clear of sci-fi as much as I can. My only experience reading sci-fi would be Dragonflight by Anne McCaffrey and [book..."

Have you read any of the books by Guy Gavriel Kay. Definitely fantasy of the highest quality. The Summer Tree trilogy, or A Song for Arbonne, or The Lions of Al-Rassan.... [authorimage:Guy Gavriel Kay|60177]

I haven't read Guy Gabriel Kay books yet but they're definitely books I'm interested in reading in the future.

I suspect you might like the Merchant Princes series by Charles Stross (first book: "The Family Trade"). However, I thought the later books didn't really deliver on the potential of the first couple.

If you're looking for political machinations and don't mind spaceships and artificial intelligences then I'd suggest Iain M Banks' Excession, but if you're actively put off by technology then you probably won't like it - maybe give "Inversions" (also by IMB) a try first to see if you like his style.

You might also want to give the Cities in Flight collection by James Blish a look, although this is more of a long shot; it has dated a bit in both style and scientific ideas but I actually find that makes it more interesting.

Dune is a great book and one of the things that makes it so amazing is that anyone can pick it up and enjoy it, regardless of whether they are fans of the genre or not.

I guess I want to kinda chime in here. I've read Dune a number of times, and I always find something new or something that I missed. It just has so much stuff in it. It's amazing!

The subsequent books do suffer a little when you have to compare them to the original, but they are good books. The thing that works against them is how they are tied together. They're chronological, but it can be a lot to process. I reconciled it by stepping back and seeing the Dune series as this story more of how the Universe of Dune was playing out as opposed to singular characters.

Should you read Dune? You've got your answer there from everybody else. :)

Should you read the rest of the series? I personally say, "yes." This means all of the books by Frank Herbert and the last two that give an end to the series.

I can't say how much bloat his son and Anderson gave the last two books; it was only supposed to be one according to his notes or something like that, and they said they worked off of his notes. I don't know. Regardless, it does give a nice tying up of everything.

Angelof wrote: "Hi. I've been reading mostly fantasy novels and I've been steering clear of sci-fi as much as I can. My only experience reading sci-fi would be Dragonflight by Anne McCaffrey and [book..."

Hello! This is a forum I can definitely sink my teeth into, being an avid Dune fan and someone who read all the books a few times over. But I can tell you, as a major fan of Tolkien and Martin, that this is probably not beyond your comfort zone.

One of the things Dune does very well is merging the futuristic with the ancient and medieval. In fact, the number of historical parallels and allegories are startling, and Herbert is pretty much credited with doing this sort of sci-fi/fantasy crossover which has allowed the two genres to often be associated.

As a friend was told when he was taking a survey course, where they read both Dune and Lord of the Rings: "Frank Herbert did for science fiction what Tolkien did for fantasy, which is to make people take it seriously." I'd recommend giving it a shot, definitely!

Dune is a novel about life in an environment that is desert like on the entire planet. Frank Herbert creates an entire set of societies that exist on this planet and how they interact. With both the planet and each other. An entire religion is developed that could only exist on such a planet. The reliance on spice, a substance found on this planet that is needed for deep space transportation between worlds affects life on the planet and alters people's lives.

I've always thought that Dune isn't really scifi in the sense that the science isn't the paramount purpose of the novel. The society developed and how it interacts with it's environment is at the core of this novel. I just wouldn't necessarily recommend it's sequels and/or prequels. You might like those, but, after reading Dune, that will either come to you of not. But, reading Dune is valuable time spent very well.

I have to chime in with my recommendation that you read "Dune." It is a classic.
I was put off at first by the fact that it is such an original creation that Herbert had to create words to fit his ideas. This required flipping to the back of the book where there was a dictionary. It was exasperating at first but I soon found that it actually immersed me even deeper into the story.
I also found "Dune Messiah" to be in a class with "Dune" except that it was not the original idea but a continuation of the story. "Children of Dune" was also good but the series went downhill after that.
You will be doing yourself a favor if you read this book.

Greg wrote: "I watched the movie about 10 years before finally reading the book. I thought both were great. I thought the second book by Herbert was alright, but after that they really went downhill. The las..."

i own these 6 books but never finished or got past God Emperor of Dune, im tempted to start again at Children of Dune. Would it be worth it?

Pickle wrote: "i own these 6 books but never finished or got past God Emperor of Dune, im tempted to start again at Children of Dune. Would it be worth it?"

Why wonder? Start with Dune, then others as you want to. Why even start at a questionable one? Read the best of the lot, then, proceed as you want to.

I read all the way up to Chapterhouse: Dune, but, never finished that. To me, the 1st is great, then downhill from there. Next couple, OK, but, nothing after them is worth the time.

I loved Dune and periodically, read it again. Love it each time. Will stop doing that when I finish it and don't feel that way. Or, start not loving it at some point during a read.

Pickle wrote: "i own these 6 books but never finished or got past God Emperor of Dune, im tempted to start again at Children of Dune. Would it be worth it? "

Start with Dune again and read all 6. You'll find stuff you missed before and things will fit together better. It took me reading them a few times to start seeing connections really lock into place.