Support for Indie Authors discussion

Marie, I’ve had the most success with that, too. I figure I should continue running free promotions until I’ve reached a decent amount of reviews.

My tuppence worth - on reviews in general, as a reader.

1. I've noticed that really popular books get hundreds of reviews on Amazon - there seems to be a "me too" factor on leaving reviews. (I don't bother to leave a review on Amazon where there are lots of reviews, but I do on Goodreads as it is part of my profile.)

2. Some books I like, and that do seem to sell from the ranking, may have only half-a-dozen reviews on Amazon. (I try to remember to leave a review for books I like which have only a few reviews.)

3. As a reader, I only read a couple of reviews before deciding to buy the book. Usually a high star review and a low star review.

4. On Goodreads there is a point where having a number of reviews influences the algorithm that recommends the books to readers. There is a Goodreads blog item "How Readers Discovered a Debut Novel: A Case Study" that might be of interest. I note that they say on average the algorithm cuts in at 200 reviews, but I have been recommended sf and fantasy books with far fewer than that.

Further to previous:
What I was trying to say, was that as a reader, half a dozen reviews on Amazon is enough for me and as far as I can tell - there may be people along who know better - the review count doesn't matter on Amazon, it is the sales count plus the link between sales - as in the people who bought x also bought y. But on Goodreads, number of reviews does seem to help sales. Just a thought for targeting where you look for reviews.

Sreedhar wrote: "Maybe goodreads could have a feature through which authors can swap books for the purpose of review. "

Even though it is against their terms and conditions, against Amazon's rules and against FTC regulations. It's also against our group rules to discuss it.

This is also the best way to get dishonest and biased reviews. Who wants that?

Anyway. More off topic comments. Please, stay on topic.

Dwayne wrote: "Sreedhar wrote: "Maybe goodreads could have a feature through which authors can swap books for the purpose of review. "

Even though it is against their terms and conditions, against Amazon's rules..."

Thanks for the information. I was unaware of it.

I have been toying with an idea; I haven't implemented it yet, but would be very interested in your feedback. My idea is to first identify books which are very similar to mine, on GoodReads. Then look at the reviews of those books, looking for perceptive and clearly written opinions. Then look at the Profile page for each of those reviewers. If they have more than approx 20 reviews, and their taste in books includes a good representation in the genre of my book, then these are my ideal reviewers. I would GoodReads Message each of these reviewers with a very short introduction to me and my work, and to how I found them. I would provide a link to my author website “opt-in” page, where they can receive one of my books for free in exchange for providing their email address. I would then add those who were willing to my email list and start sending them blog updates twice a month. When I publish my book, I'd email everyone on my list, notifying them, and providing the Amazon link, and encouraging them to leave a review (good or bad).

I haven’t figured out how to do this using Amazon reviewers, because I can’t figure out how to send a message to an individual Amazon reviewer.

What are your thoughts? Is this method too intrusive? Have authors engaged you as a reader in this way? Are you using this method - or a variation?

Further to previous comment "But on Goodreads, number of reviews does seem to help sales" - help me understand, I'm not aware that Goodreads actually SELLS books (they are owned by Amazon, who is the seller)?

And further to previous comment "As a reader, half a dozen comments ... is good enough for me", I will say that the number of comments, combined with the average rating, is important in my purchasing choice. An average of 4 stars from 7 reviewers is much less compelling than from 70 reviewers. And an average of 4 stars from 1000 reviewers will convince me to pay a higher price for a book than an average of 4 stars from 70 reviewers.

Sylvia, I totally see your logic, but authors aren’t allowed to message readers for reviews, from what I understand.

Sylvia, as a reader I would be greatly put off by an author coming out of the blue and begging for reviews. If you do this, be aware that not everyone on Goodreads takes kindly to Indie authors. Some will probably report you for sending spam, some may go through and one star all your books in revenge. I've seen things like this happen.

I think the best method of getting reviews (I used to do this back when I placed importance on reviews) is to add a little something-something in the back of your book asking the reader to leave a review. Yes, it's a fairly slow method, but hey. I write 'cause I love it, not to see how many reviews I can get.

Leah wrote: "Sylvia, I totally see your logic, but authors aren’t allowed to message readers for reviews, from what I understand."

I think you're right... and I'm too frickin' lazy to go look it up right now. So, yeah, you're right.

Leah and Dwayne - good advice from both of you. Thanks.

Dwayne, I only know that because I messaged a few of my reviewers on Goodreads to ask that they also leave their review on my Amazon book page. I either received a warning shortly after or I visited the rules page (I don’t remember which). Then I quickly deleted my messages! Lol

Which brings us all back to "hope for the best" and don't worry.

Ian wrote: "Which brings us all back to "hope for the best" and don't worry."

That's how I go about it these days.

Sylvia wrote: "I have been toying with an idea; I haven't implemented it yet, but would be very interested in your feedback. My idea is to first identify books which are very similar to mine, on GoodReads. Then l..."

As a variation on this you can go to the reviews of books you feel are similar to yours, identify the people who liked the book then go to their profile and see if they are a blogger with a blog that you can visit and submit your book for review through whatever system they prefer. I have done this and have found great reviewers this way who have gone on to become fans and who read and review all my books.

If you are going to approach bloggers the key is to have a great query letter if you don't your chances of getting them to say yes is much lower. I worked on my query for a while before sending it out and have even had blogs reply to say my book wasn't a fit for them (it was a romance review blog and although my books are romantic suspense they are very dark on the suspense side and they felt the books would be too graphic and scary in that sense) but that my query was so well written that if I ever wrote something lighter to contact them because they would love to review. So how you ask is very important!

This is a great question. When I am working on a new project (book) I ask my colleagues and some friends to write a review. I offer either a PDF of the book or a few chapters to read through. And I have been blessed with some wonderful reviews. Once it's published I gift them with a copy of the book. However, getting reviews for my book once it is published is most challenging. I always run a Special Deal and ask them to write a review. Sometimes, I post an excerpt from my book on some Christian Authors groups. And I am grateful to the ones who do write a review after the book is published.

I can't read novels when I'm in the middle of writing one. I throws me off. But between writing stints, I'll punt a few bucks on a fellow indie's e-book. However, like Leah, if I can't give it 4 or 5 stars, I don't review it. I don't have the heart to stomp on a kindred fledgling writer.
No review is better than a bad review. Just saying.

Geoffrey wrote: "However, like Leah, if I can't give it 4 or 5 stars, I don't review it. I don't have the heart to stomp on a kindred fledgling writer.
No review is better than a bad review. Just saying. "

It's interesting how many authors are craving reviews, yet it seems that the same number of authors won't review if they can't give a book a glowing review or some other reasoning. We (collectively) see reviews as important if they're going to be attached to our work, but when it comes to the work of others, we can't be bothered.

This is not meant to pick on you, Geoffrey, just an observation of comments like this I've seen over the last few years.

As an author, I don't mind ratings of two to five stars. It's all opinion. One star might sting for a moment, but it goes away. As a reader, if I'm looking for a book to buy and am reading the reviews, I gravitate toward the two and three star reviews as they're often times more balanced in their opinions. I've encountered readers who will not buy a book, especially an Indie, if they see nothing but four and five star reviews.

Food for thought.

I feel the review count is more important than the star average. It shows more people cared to read it. Plus, many people will think “It can’t be that bad” when they see a low average. Finally, if a low review has legitimate points (from the reader’s perspective) they can only help me. I’ll either agree with the review and adapt accordingly or disagree. In either case, my opinion of my own work will stay positive. I’ve given low reviews to indie authors and have had some thank me. Others have affirmed their belief the story was good. Either way, I feel I helped them grow.

As with Dwayne, I am amused at the number of authors who moan about how hard it is for THEM to get reviews, but won't be bothered reviewing anyone else. Over the last few years, I have tried to review a book each week, and I try to make a decent job of it, but I notice very few bother with mine. Authors on the whole are rather self-centred.

The low star rating, though does count, especially for low sellers, because eI gather it lowers the Amazon ranking to a point where the book is not going to be found easily. Sometimes not even if you put in the correct title, because the Amazon search engine is not especially good at finding what you want, as opposed to what Amazon lazily recommends.

I have been frustrated by the lack of reviewing that takes place. For me my first book has yet to get a review even with many free and paid downloads. With 6 other books standing by to see if my readers need me to change this or that, I'm left clueless. If it wasn't for beta readers I'd be lost.

With that in mind I am going back and reviewing anything I've read - good or bad, 5 stars or 1. I was at 50% read ~ review and now I'm working on 100%. If there is writers karma out there my new view is now to give reviews to get reviews and hopefully those that have been without reviews will see I'm going out of my way to put something constructive and maybe they will pay it forward until it gets back to me...

Mason,

Your post is raising some questions with me. Beta readers are lovely and very helpful, but why are you letting your reviews (or lack of) slow your productivity? Why let your readers dictate your books? A lot of the fun for me, as a writer, is that I'm in control of the story. What happens if some readers want you to do one thing and others want the complete opposite? Don't you trust yourself enough to write your own story?

It's nice that you're putting more effort into reviewing, but I wouldn't expect "karma" to kick in and drop more reviews on you.

Mason makes a good point - I think of reviews as a gift I can give the writer. Unfortunately, I cannot give them more money, but I can give them my focused attention and my honest feedback. I try to model my reviews after many I've read here which are so constructive and supportive, even while being critical. And, my belief is that, by increasing (even only by one!) the number of readers who take the time and effort to write reviews, I'm helping to grow a culture of thoughtfulness and discourse.

Dwayne,
I enjoy the writing, getting paid for it would be a plus and even a little money would allow more stories to flow. As I'm starting to sell my tales I can't assume that my tastes are the tastes of my readers. I have chosen erotica as my path, but there is heavy petting, descriptive but light, and borderline porn. All have the same people in the same places. They are battling the same problems and overcoming the same conflict. I would like the buyers input on how much they want the intensity knob turned. Looking for what makes the average erotica buyer bend without finding the moral breaking point.

Some of my waiting stories are heavy petting and some are down right smut. I would be willing to pump up or dial back if it's too hard hitting. My life has been pretty far out there and what I may be used to, others might call too strong. We live in a world where everyone is offended by something. Reviews would let me know how to take the edge off for the average shopper. Sadly at this point my beta readers are swingers and alt lifestyle, so not much offends them if it has a plot and is hot. But it seems even 50 shades was dulled down for the masses.

As for review "karma", after reading the posts on this subject it would sadly seem that has as good of a chance as other avenues of review promotion lol

In my opinion, as an author reviews are not there to help me with my writing, although I do read them and consider what is said. The point is, you cannot write anything of value if you are continually changing your style to accommodate the latest review. If the reviewer thinks a book should be written differently, let them write one. The review is to let the reader know what is in the book.

On the other hand, the star grading is also for the author, because it helps get readers by raising the profile of the book. My opinion when reviewing is to try to be helpful here. I am prepared to be generous if I think the author is making a fair job of achieving a reasonable goal. Readers can read the text to find out the good and bad points; the grading is to encourage or discourage, and you should know what the author is trying to achieve (you did read it, after all) and put aside your feelings as to whether it was what you would have done. The key to a good reviewer is they review independently of their personal feelings, but think of the reader who might like it. My personal dislike is of the other author who likes to show off how smart they are by giving a low grading without justifying it properly.

I think you have to accept that reviews are as easy to come by as hen's teeth. When you look at big name authors, and consider how many thousands of copies they must have sold, the number of reviews is relatively tiny.
If they happen, then rejoice, otherwise just get on and write. And in terms of how or what you write, don't pay too much attention to any reviews you do have. I suppose if you get 100% 1-star reviews, you might want to figure out why, but other than that a review is someone else's opinion on your book, not a writing or marketing strategy.

A review is supposed to be honest. If your work is riddled with all sorts of errors, I will say that and give you a 3 or less. If a book isn't something I enjoyed, don't expect a raving review. I am honest it a book is in a genre I don't normally read. If that is the case, then I give what I liked or hated with appropriate stars. You put it as in my opinion...then what you are praising or disliking about the book. I don't care if you are indie or trad. Published. It is what it is. Learn from them and move on. I look for those critiques to see where i need to improve.

Hey, Mason,

Every reader's taste will vary, even in some small degree. It's going to be impossible to please every one of them. By holding off on your books while waiting for reviews, you may find that some readers will want your books to be steamier while others feel they aren't steamy enough. If you're lucky enough to get enough reviews on one book to get a good cross section of readers, that is. Meanwhile, if I'm reading all this correctly, you have a stack of work waiting to be completed.

Personally, I admire and want to read authors who want to share their vision and ideas with me, not an author who is going to try to tailor make a story for me.

Trying to appease the average reader might lead you to writing nothing but average books. Is that what you want? Wouldn't you rather shine and show off what you can do?

We live in a world where everyone is offended by something. I think that is closer to the truth than I'm happy to admit. I don't offend easily myself, but it does seem that people are becoming offended easier all the time. Now, for me, I love this. I love putting stuff in my books knowing it might shock someone. You write erotica. You know there are people who won't even touch that genre, right? Are you worried about them? Probably not.

Sorry if I'm coming across as bossy or whatever. I don't mean to be. I would love to see everyone in this group excel and find success. I just wonder if that is possible when you rely too heavily on readers to review your books and tell you what to do. Perhaps you'll prove me wrong.

I think the most important thing we can do is write for ourselves. Or better said, write our book the way we envisioned it, no matter who it may or may not appease or offend.

Leah wrote: "I think the most important thing we can do is write for ourselves. Or better said, write our book the way we envisioned it, no matter who it may or may not appease or offend."

Well said, Leah. You're right on the money.
David

Thanks David.

Leah wrote: "I think the most important thing we can do is write for ourselves. Or better said, write our book the way we envisioned it, no matter who it may or may not appease or offend."

Well that is the way I too feel. Other than minor tweaking we will not be able to overhaul the book so as to suit some reviews.

Leah wrote: "I think the most important thing we can do is write for ourselves. Or better said, write our book the way we envisioned it, no matter who it may or may not appease or offend."

Well said Leah...cant please everyone... eg, I put in a blurb that the book is raunchy, yet people choose to read it and complain that its raunchy. Yes really.

Garfield wrote: "I put in a blurb that the book is raunchy, yet people choose to read it and complain that its raunchy. Yes really. .."

Well, I used to do a bit of organising in a volunteer group, newsletters went out, and on the day people were wandering around asking questions about what was happening. To one particular person I said "It was all in the newsletter." "Oh I don't read anything like that." "So what, you expect me to speak every individual person?" And they sort of shrugged and drifted off.

Leah wrote: "I think the most important thing we can do is write for ourselves. Or better said, write our book the way we envisioned it, no matter who it may or may not appease or offend."

Oh, yes. Anything else and you tie yourself in knots.

I agree write for yourself. I write my books because i want to share my vision. I l know that i will not please everyone and there are grammer Nazi's who will find fault if it don't please them. If one person's review points something out i read it and move on, but if two or more reviews point out the same thing i do check to see what the found. I agree write for yourself. The fact that i have five books published and some of the reviews compared me to Hitchcock and Christie i am content. Do not let others dictate how you write write for yourself.

There are a lot of good points in this thread not only about how to get reviews, but how to view them once you do. Whether you're talking books or music it can be tough sending your new born baby out into the world to be accepted or rejected.

In music the "Review Process" is a constant. Before you leave the studio the first day your work has been reviewed and nudged this way or that for the purpose of reaching the most buyers. A producer with their finger on the buying trends will have you change this or that before the week is out and that's a work of less than 300 words.

Guess with my stories I thought it would be the same way, including the thoughts of authors and readers as part of my learning curve. But I have no trouble putting my vision out there and saying "That's it, take it or leave it." In a way this would be refreshing.

Hi everyone!
Thanks Saradia for starting such a great topic.
Thank you all for sharing your interesting experiences.

I uses social media to get reviews. Even I asked many reviewers here on GR and got helping hands.

Oh, yes. Anything else and you tie yourself in knots.

I understand bondage is quite a popular subject?

Did anybody here use NetGalley? I'd be curious whether the investment to have your book listed on the site pays off...

Just another reminder that everything said on Goodreads is public. Complaining about reviews and how people review is exactly the type of thing that may put readers off your work or worse, get a mob to go through and trash everything.

As has been said a million times and ignored just as often, reviews do not sell books. Reviews are a trailing indicator of past sales. Reviews are opinions and not critiques to be used to shape writing. That's what beta readers and writing groups are for *before* you publish.

Reviews are also a topic that has been removed from discussion in our rules specifically because it always becomes negative. This particular thread was dredged up from the archive and has been allowed to be resurrected as long as it stayed positive. It's straying now. Please stay within the rules.

Christina, I agree critical reviews aren’t meant to shape our writing, but some readers do leave some awesome critical reviews that have shaped my writing. Some readers are knowledgeable about the craft, or authors themselves. Obviously, we don’t want to change our style or writing after every critical thing said in a review, but I believe some reviews do help an author’s writing. That is if the reviewer knows the craft and is constructive. I don’t see anything wrong with taking bits and pieces of some great reviews into one’s personal encyclopedia on writing. For the most part though, changing how you write based on some negative reviews would be quite absurd.

I think the most important thing to remember is always being courteous online, as Christina mentioned. If we’re badmouthing readers or complaining about negative reviews, that only attracts negative attention and reflects badly on the author.

Leah wrote: "I believe some reviews do help an author’s writing."

I suppose, but when there are many better ways to improve one's writing, it seems strange to rely on reviews for instruction. If you're seeking opinions from other humans on your work, beta readers are a much better option than reviews. For one, they can give you feedback quickly, rather than waiting for a review. Better, they will give you feedback before you publish. And you can handpick who you would like to beta read your work. I go with authors who have read my previous works as they're familiar with my style and my odd sense of humor.

Dwayne, I agree. I didn’t mean a writer should rely on reviews for instruction at all. There’s been very few reviews I’ve found helpful to my writing. But once in a while, comes a review with some real insight that’s hard to ignore. Personally, I’d go with beta readers or writing classes for instruction. I would hope most writers would know by default that reviews aren’t meant to teach us about writing.

Dwayne wrote: "Leah wrote: "I believe some reviews do help an author’s writing."

I suppose, but when there are many better ways to improve one's writing, it seems strange to rely on reviews for instruction. If y..."

Yes, but - that is only if you can find beta readers. Depending on your circle of friends, physical location, genre, where you happen to go on the internet, you may not be able to find anyone who reads in your genre, who can give helpful feedback. Yes, a good beta reader should be able to give you a lot more feedback than a review, but......

Carro wrote: "Yes, but - that is only if you can find beta readers. Depending on your circle of friends, physical location, genre, where you happen to go on the internet, you may not be able to find anyone who reads in your genre, who can give helpful feedback. Yes, a good beta reader should be able to give you a lot more feedback than a review, but......"

You can seek beta readers here in SIA. There are plenty of other ways to find them on the Internet. I glanced at your profile and didn't see any books you'd written, but based on what you read I'm guessing you write fantasy? I don't write in any particular genre and have been able to find beta readers. I would guess someone who writes in a very popular genre could find betas.

@Dwayne - thanks - but mine was a general comment for the purposes of discussion, not a personal one :)
If you are someone who starts writing because you've always wanted to, but are not aware of writing groups and the like online, you don't even know to go looking. I am on several forums and see people join and say "I've been writing for years, so glad to find you."

Did anybody here use NetGalley? I'd be curious whether the investment to have your book listed on the site pays off...

Christina wrote: "Something else to keep in mind and it has been said often: Reviews do not increase sales. More often, sales increase reviews.

There are several members of this group who are selling books like ho..."

Very interesting statistics, Christina. I am surprised - the top percentile of all books on amazon puts you in quite a lofty part of the distribution. Still, how did you get your data? Did you look the authors up individually, or is there an analytical tool that is free to use? I would be interested in seeing an analysis of book sales / sales rank vs number of reviews. Do you know whether something like this has been done, or whether tools exist that allow somebody to do these analyses? Thank you for any comments you have - kindest, Mark

Dotti wrote: "You could also pay to have it put up on NetGalley. There are groups like Broad Universe that lease out spaces for nonmembers."

Dotti - have you had any experience with NetGalley?

Mark, I can tell you this much: I’ve written a decent book (Vampire fantasy/paranormal/sci-fi) that’s rated 3.9-4.2 by the public right now, and in my genre it’s been incredibly hard getting reviews. Here’s some of my “statistics”. When I did a free promo the first time, I got about 5500 downloads. Out of that, I received maybe 10 reviews on Amazon. I’ve gotten a lot more reviews on Goodreads though. Amazon - 29 reviews. Goodreads - 62. But Goodreads reviews have come a bit more steadily. Still, that’s a very small percentage of reviews per sales. I’ve done a few promos since then with over 4000 downloads, including a current promo. Hope that helps. FYI: This comment was not a means of advertising my book.