The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the weeks of August 31st - September 6th, we are reading BOOK ONE: 1945 -Section One - An Evening At The Maharanees - Chapter One ~ A Division of the Spoils -Book IV,(pg. 3-35).

The first week's reading assignment is:

WEEK ONE- August 31st ~ PART ONE: Section One ~ An Evening At the Maharanees (pg. 3-35))

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on August 31st.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on August 31st.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Jill will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Bentley.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Paul Scott

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how to cite books:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...


Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

by Paul Scott

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Chapter Overview and Summary

The war in Europe is over and the Japanese are on the verge of surrender. India is now gearing up for an event that has been promised to them by the British....independence. Mohammed Kasim, who we met in earlier editions, has been released from prison and is now residing with the Nawab (another recurring character). He is being evasive about where he stands regarding the form that independence will take and making no public statement.

We meet a new character through whose eyes we will follow the machinations of Britain and India as they fight over the independence issue, Field Security Sergeant Perron. He is under the command of Captain Purvis who has some very definite opinions about India and the "ghastly mess" Britain has made of the country.

Perron is ordered to go to a party being held at the home of a Maharanee. And to keep his ears open for loose talk and rumor, although he is not sure exactly what he is expected to hear.

We are so glad that you are joining us for the final book in the Raj Quartet. We will also be reading Staying On which is a continuation of the Quartet early next year. Many of you have joined us before but for those who have not, let us review what was covered in Books I-III.

In volumes 1-3 we read about the growing sentiment of nationalism in India; Gandhi's demands; rioting; violence; bloodshed.

Now the focus is more sharply on the Indian leaders of both sides : Gandhi, Nehru, Jinnah; Kasim, Bose. All of them wanted independence for India but disagreed violently on how to it achieve most expeditiously. What Kasim wanted most and believed to be an absolute requirement was Indian unity, i.e. unity between Hindus and Muslims -- which was never to be.

There have been many characters who appeared throughout the books who may show up again here as they are major players in the military/civil service; others will not as they are deceased or whose stories and lives were incidental (but not unimportant) to the overall focus of the story which is the coming independence of India and how the British as a whole and certain characters will come to terms with the inevitable. We will attempt, in each chapter overview and summary for Book IV, to indicate the role each person has played in the first three books of the Quartet to assist those who are new to the series.

by Paul Scott
by Paul Scott

Discussion

Why is Mohammed Kasim suddenly being so evasive about how the move toward independence should proceed? He had very strong opinions about a united India when we first met him in the earlier books and was imprisoned for his ideas even though he was a Chief Minister in the Indian government. Now he seems to be waffling or at least being ambivalent and has become reclusive.

From the earlier books we remember that his son, Sayed was also jailed for being a member of the anti-British Indian National Army while his other son, Ahmed, lives the life of a playboy in the court of the local Nawab.

Possibly Kasim sees how some of these moves towards independence will be bad for India overall and the populace.

It will be interesting to see how the Kasims evolve in this book - they are among my favorite characters.

Thanks, Bentley. That's certainly possible but he was such a strong and vocal supporter of independence, that it is odd that he is now so evasive. He's no fool by any means and he may see the Muslim/Hindu issue more clearly than most since he had time in prison to concentrate and realizes that just the vacating of India by the British is only one part of a very complex issue. There are so many factions, some of whom are not averse to violence against their own people. I am curious what others think about the position (or lack thereof) Kasim is taking.

Sgt. Perron may be one of the few military men who sees that what he has been taught about India and the reality of the country are at odds. He has turned down commissions in order to study India and human behavior and feels that being an officer calls for self-deception. I feel he represents the type of man who may be able to deal realistically with the changes that are just on the horizon, while to old "India hands" refuse to accept the inevitable. Your thoughts?

He's an awesome, totally likable character from the very first.

He may be the only one who is going to be able to make the transition from conqueror to visitor!!! Do you think that the "powers that be" are going to attempt to use him as a spy (I don't know what other word applies) to discover....what?

I dare not say. I've already finished the book. I'm glad to re-read it though. I found Guy's story, like the Laytons' story, very easy to follow, but the Kasims have me a little mixed up.

I forgot that you had already completed the book, so thanks for not including any spoilers. But I would still appreciate your always cogent comments as we go along with this read.

Captain Purvis, who is to accompany Perron to the party decides he is too sick to go and that Perron is on his own. The Captain confides that Operation Zipper, which is the military plan to invade Malaysia seems to be known to the "man on the street" and that the military higher-ups are in a dither that the town is crawling with spies. This appears to be the reason for sending Perron to the party....to discover exactly who knows what. Purvis thinks it is over reaction and will accomplish nothing. Would you agree? The war is practically over and Indian independence is basically assured. What positive effect will come from discovering that some Indians may be "spies" since that is not a new situation?

I kind of agree it is better to know who your enemies and friends are as well as spies. It may be an over reaction but then again - it is always better to be on the safe side and no harm is done.

I wonder what others felt about Purvis and his situation - and what about Perron what are your first thoughts about him in the book or series?

It seems to me that if the quartet were written by one of the characters, it would be Perron.

He embodies the ennui that is the Raj's energy at this point. On the one hand, after more than 100 years of occupation, the energy of the Raj's presence doesn't just end like flipping a light switch. It peters out into the oblivion of Time. (See p.429 Everyman edition, for the Catch 22 of the Raj - essentially only the Raj, which is striving to maintain itself, can reduce its presence.)

So what does that mean for the individuals involved?

It's the stage and script they're presented with. Perron plays his role as well as he can. The Raj is going to hell in a handbasket, but in the end, so to speak, there's little that he, or any of the other Brits, can do, other than leave, or stay and witness. (See p.417 in Everyman edition, where Perron hears the stream of history, an apt allusion to a metaphor that resonates in both the east and west.)

This is the volume in which we see the birthing of a nation as colonialism wanes.

While everything is in play and in flux, it's the Indians who are dealing. The Raj's fate is sealed.

And in this vast ancient land that is sort of par for the course. It is from the land we know as India that we learn things such as the law of impermanence: everything made of two parts or more is impermanent.

That makes death and birth are much of a sameness.

Jill wrote: "Discussion

Why is Mohammed Kasim suddenly being so evasive about how the move toward independence should proceed? He had very strong opinions about a united India when we first met him in the earl..."

This is interesting because from the first paragraph in the fourth volume, we see that there is more than one India in India. From the outset, the Muslims are split from those like Kasim and the Muslim League.

The issue is over appointment of Muslim representatives to the government. The League wants total control, the Congress wants a role. In this, especially the League's zero sum position, we see the split that eventually saw the creation under Jenna of a "unified" (segregated?) Muslim state, Pakistan.

Kasim, of the Congress' persuasion, has been isolated in prison for the past three years and like any politician would has lost the connection between himself and a significant portion of the Muslim community, Jenna's League.

Jenna and his agenda are the driving energy. And that foreshadows the split of India.

Martin, mon ami!!!!.....so glad to see you and once more to enjoy your comments and participation and your every-present spoilers!!!! :0)
I totally agree with your thoughts re; Perron, which was what I alluded to in post 8....he is not the self-deluded military man who cannot see the forest for the trees. The Raj is over and the British efforts could be better spent trying to assist (if possible) the negotiations among the various factions of Indian leadership. It is no time to worry about a time that is passed and instead look toward what the future might hold for India as an independent country. Or do they care and hope that India falls apart without their "leadership:? I think your use of the word "ennui" was right on target.

Re: post 16.
I had rather imagined that Kasim might be keeping his hand in even though imprisoned since he was a power in the Congress. But it may be "out of sight, out of mind."

Thanks, Jill.

Politicians can become more irrelevant, faster, than the clothes worn yesterday by a teenager.

When the elder Kasim was jailed three years prior, the consensus seemingly was for a unified India, where upon his release partition seems to have gained the upper hand, especially in the Muslim community.

Kasim, in American English, has become irrelevant. Sorta like Bob Dole, Newt Gingrich, Dennis Hastert (sp?), and most recently Harry Reid. I think it's less outta sight and more out of power. History passes by those out of power faster than those in power. For those in power, Time slows. Or, so it seems.

It is certainly true that partition has come to the forefront and unification has lost ground. That may have been inevitable even if Kasim hadn't gone to jail.....history shows us that religion is many times the reason for unrest, rebellion, war, etc. and that continues in the present day.

I'm still trying to figure out Captain Purvis. On the one hand he seems to be seeing spies and mutineers abounding while at the same time he thinks going to the party to learn what is in the wind is a total waste of time. I think he couldn't care less about India and just wants to go home and get well!

Jill wrote: "history shows us that religion is many times the reason for unrest, rebellion, war, etc. and that continues in the present day."

As a religious person, I feel I ought to say that it's the dogmatic approach to religion that causes all those things. Developing a personal relationship with G-d, which is what religion is really about, causes peace.

Kressel, you are of course correct. It is easy to say "in the name of religion", when indeed true devotion means peace and love of mankind. I was using the term "religion" in that post in a more generic sense. No offense was intended and I hope was not taken.

Not at all. I just consider it important to make that distinction.

Martin wrote: "It seems to me that if the quartet were written by one of the characters, it would be Perron.

He embodies the ennui that is the Raj's energy at this point. On the one hand, after more than 100 yea..."

I've enjoyed all of the comments so far. Just thought I'd share with you an interesting website comparing and contrasting Buddhist and Hindu concepts of impermanence.

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma8/i...

We had mentioned some of the tenets of the Hindu religion in the first three book discussions but not the issue of impermanence. Thanks for the link, Leslie.....we are glad you joined us and we welcome your comments.

Captain Purvis is very frank with Perron regarding his feelings about the war and exactly what he is assigned to accomplish which he admits is unclear and that he was misled. Is he a man on the verge of a breakdown or are his thoughts closer to the truth than the military would like to admit?

I think Purvis hits the nail on the head when he states that India is still feudal and is "not a single transferable package". India was divided when the British arrived and it hasn't changed. I feel he is pretty prescient about what is about to happen.

Yes Purvis is an interesting character. It is sad that nobody is really listening to him.

Since he is not regular Army, he sees through the "John Bull" attitude and the higher-ups probably look down their noses at him. He is an economist by profession and it would be to their benefit to listen to him. I know hindsight is 20/20 but the situation of the the division of the country by religious differences seems so obvious....it is not going to go away.

It is funny how internal politics and sort of a caste system within the military and probably more so in the British military at that time caused these kinds of ridiculous situations where the person with the most knowledge was listened to the least. The self imposed caste system within the military was probably not so much different than India's caste system in some ways. It certainly drove Purvis off the deep edge.

All that Bentley and Jill say strikes me as being fairly true, but even on a second reading I see Purvis a little differently.

He's a character who generally would be comfortable in the movie/TV series MASH, or the iconic novel Catch 22. He's completely out of place, in body, mind, and spirit.

By training, he's an economist. But his role in the war effort is ill defined. He has no idea of his various assignments.

He seems most proficient at procuring whiskey for parties, and oversized motor vehicles for getting about.

In my estimation, he's there for comic/satiric relief.

He is totally out of place in India, Martin, and has been sick since he arrived (or is it hypochondriasis?) I am not sure that the Army even knows what he is supposed to be doing. I see him more as a tragic character who just wants to get out of there but what the Army is using him for is beyond me.

Well, if tragic is when a character dies, then Purvis...oh wait, that's too over the spoiler line even for me.

Martin, break that habit or it is the padded room for you! No spoilers please.
I see him as a more psychologically tragic individual....he may be comedy relief but I have pity for him. His experience in India has ruined him physically and mentally. Of course we don't know how fragile he was before he was stuck in a military uniform.

Well, two things to be said about life in the padded room:

1) the rent is covered;

2) and while the grub is not great, it's paid for (Jill, please say it's true every friday night in the padded room is taco night).

Anyone else noted Siva in the party den when Perron shows up?

Fire of destruction and creation is something to keep one's eye on. Note, it's one fire, not fires of.

If I remember correctly, Siva has been mentioned in each book and we discussed it as a portent of things to come. I expected that somewhere in this 4th book that Siva would crop up but it happened early this time

Right you are. Another title for this volume, especially relevant given its 1975 publication date, could have been: "Burn, Baby, Burn."

On a more serious note about the title, this from Wikipedia:

The title, A Division of the Spoils comes from the Isaiah 53.12:

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

and the Proverbs 16.18-19:

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly than to divide the spoil with the proud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Divis...

Quite apropos Martin for this book and that time and place as well as the people involved.

Glad you did, Gail. Velcome.

Great, Gail. Join right in.

I just wanted to tell you how much I have enjoyed this series and the discussions. I got started with it late and need to catch up a little more. Thanks for introducing me to this great series.

Gail wrote: "This is the first time I've joined a book discussion Good Reads. I first watched the Jewel in the Crown series on TBS and then several months ago read Book One in the series. When I saw that book F..."

Gail, you've got to read Books 2 and 3! The interconnections in this series are what make it so amazing!

You are welcome Helga - it is a stellar series for sure.