Brain Pain discussion

The Dying Grass (Seven Dreams, #5)
This topic is about The Dying Grass
24 views
The Dying Grass - TVP 2015 > Discussion - Week Four - The Dying Grass - Page 600 -802

Comments Showing 1-8 of 8 (8 new)    post a comment »
dateUp arrow    newest »

message 1: by Jim (new) - added it

Jim | 3056 comments Mod
This discussion covers Pages 600-802: To End of "Very Beautiful and Almost Automatic: They Are the Ones Who Did Wrong Things"


message 2: by Zadignose (new) - added it

Zadignose | 444 comments The fall of Shore Crossing is a tragedy. I miss him already.


message 3: by Zadignose (new) - added it

Zadignose | 444 comments And, not that it makes much difference, but at this point are there any stand-out heroes? I think White Thunder is one. We've spent a bit more time with him and in his head than, say, Rainbow, who was a kind of legend but one we never really knew... or Red Moccasin Tops who I always thought of as "one of the red blankets," or Peopeo Tholekt, who was braver than his chief and loyal, but somehow Looking Glass's people seem less... our people to me. Which is perhaps a strange way to identify.


message 4: by Zadignose (last edited Sep 14, 2015 06:09PM) (new) - added it

Zadignose | 444 comments But maybe I'm dodging talking about the bigger figure of Joseph. He seems to be rising in my esteem, not only because he's been cast as sort of the head chief (whereas we know he really holds no such position of authority), but also because, despite seeming wishy-washy at times, in retrospect he seems to have been right in almost all of his opinions (which happen to have been ignored).

One element of his weakness, however, like Howard, is that he is human, thoughtful, and possessor of a conscience.

Howard, however, is more able to delude himself and play a two-faced game by acting and enabling others to act in wicked ways while trying to make a virtue of the fact that he suppresses his own conscience in order to do his (regrettable) duty.


message 5: by Zadignose (new) - added it

Zadignose | 444 comments I wanted to note another thing. Page 650 has a very short, but I thought poignant scene, which can be quoted entirely here:

Guy, I have something to tell you about Gibbon's battlefield. However badly you feel about what we saw, you can be assured that it is the best that could have been done.
Don't worry, father; I didn't feel bad at all! It's only what Joseph deserved.


It seems to me that Guy is being entirely sincere here, and it's a great tragedy, and one more thing for Howard to feel sad about. He wanted to help, even falsely, to assuage his son's conscience, only to discover that he doesn't have one.


Sosen | 38 comments Maybe Uh-Oh has more consideration for the humanity of his enemies, but that doesn't make him likeable for me. I cringe every time he interrupts or ignores somebody. He's deceptively careful about playing favorites while complimenting those he doesn't like - although even when he's trying to cultivate respect, he's still about as condescending as humanly possible. Maybe that's why I sympathize more with Perry, who would rather kill all Indians on sight, but who detests Howard for the same reasons I do.


Sosen | 38 comments Vollmann is good at finding ways to make us like everybody. The only exception is Ad Chapman, fuck that guy. He's the Argall of this book.


message 8: by Zadignose (new) - added it

Zadignose | 444 comments Argall's more admirable...

As for Howard, yeah, as he does with many characters, when Vollmann encourages respect or sympathy he usually follows by undermining it. Howard is a rationalizer, and we can see through a lot of his rationalizing. He just about manages to persuade himself, but not us. For a minor example, he suggests his own integrity is strong by refusing to accept the horse that Chapman offers, only to diplomatically sacrifice that integrity, thus accepting a huge bribe from the novel's worst villain. Meanwhile, Howard claims not to put too much faith in Chapman, but really he keeps him close while trying to keep his own "honor" by using and degrading Chapman, treating him as both a confidante and a whipping boy.


back to top