The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Two events stand out the most to me in these chapters:

1) The brutal attack on Mrs. Joe...she's obviously in very bad shape because Pip says that she was knocked down by a "tremendous blow" and that she would never "rampage again." Who did it? We know that it can't be Pip or Orlick or Mr. Wopsle. Was it the newly escaped convict? Time will tell.

2) Again, the idea that Pip doesn't want to be common. I've thought about this a lot. There is nothing wrong with wanting more out of life, but Pip, in looking back on his life, is obviously embarrassed by this. Is he embarrassed that he feels that being ambitious is bad or is he embarrassed because he was ashamed of Joe and a blacksmith's life? (You can want more from life, but still not be ashamed of your humble origins, which might have made you what you are today.)

There are comparisons between Pip and Estella...Pip as lower class, and Estella as more upper class. One comparison is education. Pip receives a poor education, and then at the last chapter, we see that Estella is abroad to get a good education. In doing research, some scholars argue that Dickens is Pip. It's obviously not autobiographical but there is the element that Dickens also was ambitious and wanted more out of his life. Rochelle posted a couple of days ago that Dickens wanted to go college, but never was able to, much like Pip not being fully educated.

But if Dickens is Pip, there is also the idea that the people who do have more are somehow "off." Miss Havisham is odd (to say the least); Estella is proud; the relatives who assemble to visit Miss Havisham are obviously out to get something (her money when she dies, most likely); and then the young man who Pip has a fight with (excessively aggressive, but he does have one thing going for him...at least he doesn't snitch on Pip).

Lastly, isn't Mrs. Joe ambitious as well? She obviously feels that she is missing out on something in life. She is upset when Joe - and not herself - is invited to visit with Miss Havisham. Pip profiles Mrs. Joe in a negative light, but aren't they the same on this?

It seems as if everyone in the story except Miss Havisham and Joe is a striver—reaching for what they perceive to be higher status, a better life. Pip is striving along with the rest, but his retrospect view is ambivalent.

It seems to me that the reason for this ambivalence is to be found in the two exceptions to the striving norm. Miss Havisham embodies the hollowness of a life that has all the external advantages when that life is lived without character, without the internal resources to make it constructive. Joe, by contrast, is content with his lot as a blacksmith and even finds the positive in his domestic life with Mrs. Joe. Seen from this point of view, Pip’s story is pretty much a cliché—though told in delightful language.

Lynnm wrote: "Two events stand out the most to me in these chapters:

1) The brutal attack on Mrs. Joe...she's obviously in very bad shape because Pip says that she was knocked down by a "tremendous blow" and th..."

Couldn't it have been Orlick? He was vague about his earlier whereabouts that evening.

Ooh! I didn't think of him. He's a sour thing and I wouldn't be surprised.

I've been thinking about Joe. He's a lovely character really. He has such a tender heart. There's a section near the beginning where I got the impression from something he said that he married Pip's sister because he knew Pip needed him. Something like that. He's so atypical of what literature often portrays in the gruff, burly, sweaty blacksmith.

I suspect that Pip is looking back with chagrin that he could ever have been so ungrateful towards his dear, good friend. Even in his thoughts.

Yes, Joe is more maternal than his wife. Interesting that she and Joe didn't have any more children.

I don't know if anyone else would agree but I get the impression the he kinda feels sorry for her. Like she can't help herself. Or there's a better person underneath. I don't think he's a coward or cowed by her exactly. Almost that he just makes the best of it. I think that if she were threatening to do Pip a lasting injury, Joe would step up or at least find a way around it. Maybe by taking the brunt on himself. (Yes. I agree that the way Pip is treated leaves lasting emotional scars. But Joe may not realize that. )

Action-wise the novel is more of a thriller than a typical big life adventure. The element of mystery, drama, and conflict is ever present.

Personally, I was more attracted not to this dramatic and mysterious moment, but to the questions of class system and Pip's awareness of his inferiority or this is how he views his social standing.

Despite the dark and macabre side of the novel, I am still enjoying some tiny humorous undertones of the novel even when the darkest events take place

Renee wrote: "I don't know if anyone else would agree but I get the impression the he kinda feels sorry for her. Like she can't help herself. Or there's a better person underneath. I don't think he's a coward or..."

Joe explains in chapter 7 why he never fights back-that his own father beat his mother terribly, and ...I see so much in my poor mother, of a woman drudging and slaving and breaking her honest hart and never getting no peace in her mortal days, that I'm dead afeerd of going wrong in the way of not doing what's right by a woman, and I'd fur rather of the two go wrong t'other way, and be a little ill-conwenienced myself. Joe goes on to explain that the only thing that really bothers him is that Pip gets ill-used as well.

I think I should not participate in the speculation who might have hurt Mrs. Joe as I know the answer far too well. ;-) there are several options and all should be taken into account as in a modern-day crime scene. ;-)

Orlick reminded me of Uriah Heep in DC. He envies and dislikes Pip as Uriah does with regards to David.

When seeing all the waiting relatives of Ms Havisham I could not help thinking of old Martin Chuzzlewit's relatives awaiting his death and a huge inheritance. I assume this is the reason for them to wait upon Ms. Havisham, esp. as she is not very delighted to see them.
There are 3 ladies and 2 gentlemen in total plus the boy who fights with Pip. However, we do not get to know much about them which makes this all more mysterious. Another man is mentioned called "Matthew". Is he the one who jilted Ms. Havisham on their wedding day?

I like Pip's vivid imagination, firstly, when telling his lie about his first visit at Satis House, secondly, when imagining what might happen to him after fighting that boy. He does not even confide in Joe that he fought with a boy. Is he ashamed of what he has done? I think so, but he does confide in Biddy. Is she becoming to Pip what Agnes used to be for David in DC?

Pip's fight seems to have improved his status with Estella as she offers him to kiss her cheek. Does she like the other boy even less than Pip, maybe because he is part of the relatives trying to get money out of Ms Havisham that has already been promised to Estella like the jewelry which they use to show to Pip?

And I loved the almost Freudian slip Pip makes when saying he would like to see Ms Havisham, as he in fact is interested how Estella is.

Abigail wrote: "It seems as if everyone in the story except Miss Havisham and Joe is a striver—reaching for what they perceive to be higher status, a better life. Pip is striving along with the rest, but his retro..."

Nice points, Abigail. Although for us, it is cliche, but I'm not sure that it would have been ciche in Dickens' time. People had little class mobility in life...we don't have much class mobility as well but we have the illusion that there is class mobility even though there isn't much...they had neither reality or illusion.

In the past, if a son was born into a blacksmith's family (or raised by a blacksmith as in Pip's case), that's where you were supposed to stay. Not that the son couldn't be unhappy about it, and I'm sure a few ran away from a particular life, but I think for the most part, they stayed and had little aspirations for a different life.

Robin wrote: "Yes, Joe is more maternal than his wife. Interesting that she and Joe didn't have any more children."

Robin - yes, it could have been Orlick.

And it is surprising that they didn't have children of their own. No birth control back then. Maybe that fed into her unhappiness as well?

Zulfiya wrote: "Action-wise the novel is more of a thriller than a typical big life adventure. The element of mystery, drama, and conflict is ever present.

Personally, I was more attracted not to this dramatic a..."

Zulfiya - I agree - the questions raised by the discussion on class in the novel are its most interesting aspects. And given the name of the book, I think we can assume that we'll have more on it as we move the novel.

And my apologies that I've been "quiet" most of the week.

I could lie - like Pip - and say that it was the first week of school and I was oh so busy. But even though it was the first week of school, I wasn't very busy.

Therefore, unlike Pip, I won't lie. I am a huge tennis fanatic and my beloved US Open is being played. I love the first week with everyone playing. So, I've been spending most of my time watching ESPN on TV and ESPN streaming.

But, I have been keeping up with the readings and will have the comments on the next chapters ready for Monday morning.