Victorians! discussion

This whole section seems to be about relationships. Some questions to get us started:

1. There are many biblical references throughout the novel. M. Paul is described several times as hissing in Lucy's ear. Is a villain or a hero?

2. At the end of Chapter 28, Lucy describes how others view her. Why is there so much disparity among the descriptions? Are any of them accurate?

3. M. Paul is compared to Napoleon. How would you describe him?

4. Can Dr. John love a woman without the trappings of wealth? Why?

Remember, anything is fair game for discussion.

An interesting question, whether M. Paul is a villain or a hero. Certainly, at first glance, any hissing in a heroine's ear would be subject to suspicion. Add to that Lucy's frequent visits to the school's garden and the mention of gates to enter and exit the garden and we have a formula for temptation and a fall. Somehow, however, I find M. Paul to be more heroic.

It was, after all, M. Paul who rescued Lucy when she wandered lost in the streets to the school. It was M. Paul who gave his approval of Lucy that secured Lucy her position at the school, and, most importantly, it is M. Paul who is most encouraging of Lucy to become more than she believes herself to be. The demand of M. Paul for Lucy to become someone else in the play shows his belief that she could be more than she presents to the world.

Sometimes a hiss could be a whisper, and, if that is true, then M. Paul is not Lucy's devil but rather her protector.

The relationship between M. Paul and Lucy is greatly developed in this section of the novel. We have spent much of our focus on discussing Lucy as an observer and great discussion has followed.

This section fully introduces another character who is an observer. While Madame Beck is a snoop, and a rather blatant one at that, it is the introduction of M. Paul as an observer that I found both interesting and instructive. The idea of sight and the relationship it has between Lucy and M. Paul is brought into sharp focus in Ch 28 when Lucy accidently breaks M. Paul's "steel framed lunettes" and Lucy recounts that "I had heard him call them his treasures." Fearing the wrath of M. Paul Lucy braces for the worst, and yet M. Paul mildly comments with a smile on his face "You are resolved to have me quite blind and helpless in your hands!"

In Ch. 31 we find out that it was M. Paul who tenderly covering Lucy as she slept and shortly after that we learn that he has hired a room overlooking the inner garden "virtually as a post of observation ... my book is this garden: its contents are human nature - female human nature. I know you all by heart."

M. Paul, therefore, has been an observer as well throughout the novel. He too has been a student of the activities and mysteries of others and, significantly, has also seen the mysterious nun. Thus Lucy has a helpmate and the validation that there is some other presence in the garden. This tenderness with the covering of Lucy while she slept, the revelation that she is not the sole watcher and observer of people in the story, that she has not been alone in her ghostly observations draws Lucy and M. Paul together. Lucy and M. Paul are not antagonists; they are, rather, allies.

As I've mentioned before, the relationship between Lucy and M. Paul is intriguing, and I do believe he is sweet on her. I think Lucy has feelings for M. Paul, but has not acknowledged them for what they are (when his goddaughter tucks her arm into his, Lucy has strange feelings she decides not to explore). Their constant bantering is full of interesting tension, and they both tend to misread each other's motives all the time, which riles them both up. I really would like to see this relationship mature into something more than friendship.

I've think I've finally figured out the tone of this story, and therefore Lucy... It occurs to me that so much of this novel is really Bronte speaking tongue-in-cheek. There are so many times that she seems to be slyly poking fun at so many people -- Mrs. Beck, and M. Paul, and Ginevra, Polly's precociousness at the beginning of the novel, and even occasionally Dr. John. Plus, she definitely takes little swats at the French.

This explains to me why it is so difficult to plug into Lucy. What I am curious to know is if this teasing is Lucy's post-trauma defense mechanism to keep us all at bay, or if this is just the tone of the book and Bronte's having fun with us. There have been so many interesting psychological insights and observations (through Lucy), I'd love to see our heroine open up and drop her teasing so that she can respond fully and emotionally... and we can truly engage.

It may just be me, but I don't see Lucy as the teasing type. She seems rather gloomy and practical to me.

While M Paul is clearly developing into Lucy's love interest, and the first real inkling of this is the work and love she puts into her gift for him, I find their relationship somewhat unsettling. I don't like his spying on the school (this has the appearance of stalking or at least of seeking power over the girls and women through illicitly-gained knowledge), and his unreasonable anger and pettiness (for example in the scene in which Lucy makes space for him in to read to the girls and he then proceeds to move her all the way down to the end of the table) appears to be written for comic effect but feels almost threatening.

While Dr John is clearly destined for Paulina, I think this is a shame. He and Lucy clearly come from the same social class-they both have to work for their living-and I think he and Lucy could have been very happy together if the pretty Paulina hadn't come along, and Lucy hadn't ceded the floor so readily. I had such high hopes for the pink dress!

I think there are definite parallels between Mr Rochester and M Paul in how they interact with the heroines-a combination of bullying, mild deception and then surprising acts of kindness.

Frances wrote: "While M Paul is clearly developing into Lucy's love interest, and the first real inkling of this is the work and love she puts into her gift for him, I find their relationship somewhat unsettling. ..."

I agree that Rochester and M. Paul are similar in many ways. It will be interesting to see how Bronte will resolve the apparent growing relationship between Lucy and M. Paul.

I find the way Bronte conveys the developing relationship between Lucy and M. Paul breathtaking. These two know each other's great capacities AND each other's faults. And it seems that the faults are almost more dearly cherished. She knows his temper and his insults, and he knows her retracting silence and stubbornness!

I thought it was heart-wrenching that he noted that Lucy had not presented flowers and that he called out three times to see if she would respond. Then he went on a tirade against the English. Ha! He's wearing his heart on his sleeve here, letting his emotions get the better of him in venting his disappointment publicly.

And he continues his slanderous attack until Lucy finally bursts out in defense of her country. It's the way these two push each other's buttons! It was at once playful and intense. He trying to get her passions riled, and she making him suffer like a child when his gift is not forthcoming. I feel the passion crackling in this relationship. Wow.

That she made him something that took great thought and time, means much. And his jealous desperation to know if she truly began the project with him in mind reveals his need to be special to Lucy.

Deborah wrote: "It may just be me, but I don't see Lucy as the teasing type. She seems rather gloomy and practical to me."

I think as we were chatting on a previous thread, Lucy seems the embodiment of what we certainly would call mental illness now, possibly Charlotte Bronte's own depression. She has mood swings, acts in contrary ways, is trying desperately to cling onto stoicism, and then when she claims in her narrative she's under control escapes to have a good cry. She longs for companionship but searches for the loneliest path.
With M.Paul perhaps the person she is inside is starting to emerge. For me the conversations can be slightly odd and controlling on the page, but I try and imagine Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracey bantering together and it works better!

Peter wrote: "The relationship between M. Paul and Lucy is greatly developed in this section of the novel. We have spent much of our focus on discussing Lucy as an observer and great discussion has followed.

T..."

My notes also say that the phrenology of them having the same head is incredibly important regarding their match as a couple. Or I suppose even friends, but at this point I am assuming they'll be a couple (there was hardly any mention of the handsome Dr John in these chapters).

M. Paul adding to the troupe of spies in Villette is not quite a surprise as there is the hint in an earlier chapter when Lucy's letters aren't quite put back right. It was an interesting narrative touch that suddenly Lucy mentions all the books he's been leaving her now. I wasn't sure if it is Bronte making things up as she progresses or a sign again of Lucy as an unreliable narrator, telling what she feels like when it suits her mood. (Is it mentioned before that M.Paul smokes a stinky cigar??)
All the watching reminds me of those pictures of the theatre where everyone is looking at everyone else looking at them.
Does it change the reader's perception that M. Paul is a spy?

The other illuminating part is that he can see the nun, which as you say, Peter, flips around Lucy's mental condition. Instead of it being a sign of some sort of female hysteria, it is a shared experience.
Plus the nun also seems to be a watcher by her appearance at the end of the chapter after they've been discussing her :)

Clari wrote: "I think as we were chatting on a previous thread, Lucy seems the embodiment of what we certainly would call mental illness now, possibly Charlotte Bronte's own depression..."

Oh that's interesting, I've never had that feeling at all. I do think that she is suffering from some sort of childhood or adolescent trauma, and has built a wall around herself (to protect herself from being hurt), and has also developed some interesting skills of observation from her safe vantage point.

There are times when I think it is really easy to relate to Lucy... but then, hmmm, with the conclusion of possible mental illness, I wonder what that might say about me? :)

Janice George (JG) wrote: "CThere are times when I think it is really easy to relate to Lucy... but then, hmmm, with the conclusion of possible mental illness, I wonder what that might say about me? :) ."

I think in this novel Bronte shows what a great writer she is, readers notoriously don't like depressed and gloomy characters as protagonists, but Bronte creates a flawed narrator and evinces empathy for her loneliness and the greyness of her existence. She wants to bring the people who are shadows and not noticed to the forefront and say that they have hopes and passions as much as the pretty vivacious young girls.