Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion

I asked this question of Calvin who was unwilling or unable to answer it. Isn't it vital to know precisely what God keeps unflinching control over?

Hey, a mystery. I love mysteries. Let me know if I'm close. You don't dare talk about this because if you get something in the wrong category your God is so vengeful he would construe it as blasphemy. How positively Puritanical!!! No wonder you don't believe in electricity - living in the 18th century, who needs it?

The Bible affirms both God's causal determination and human responsibility. A paradox oerhat, but the divine human relationship is not applicable to the human to human relationship.

*perhaps

That is more or less the only answer I have ever encountered. Spurgeon said much the same in his defense of Calvinism. It is not exactly an answer though.

I agree. It's ok for general Christians, but the whole "God's ways are higher than our ways" is a cop-out for anyone practicing apologetics.

So, Determinism is merely a mindset when thinking about God, but has no pragmatic earthly applications?

haha. fits right into the religion box, doesn't it?

I actually agree with Brent's statement in #3 and I don't call myself a Calvinist. My problem comes in when people start to explain that mystery too deeply. I recall Calvin, in his Institutes, talking of the man who went into the woods to chop wood and ended up dying somehow. Calvin was explicit - don't say God let this happen, the truth is God caused it to happen. It is statements like that which point to a determinism which then ends up being absurd because God causes evil.

In other words, all Christians invoke mystery at some point it is just a question of when. In my experience, my young and restless Calvinist friends go about 2 points down to the explaining how God works trail before invoking mystery then I do.

So to be fair, Calvinism does not lead to determinism for Calvinists. Yet some Calvinists speak and write in ways that point to determinism and many of us who are not Calvinists see it as inherently leading that way (just as many Calvinists think non-Calvinist theology ends up in Pelagianism or something). I think the lesson is to be careful how we speak of others' views - I may think x leads to y but a person who holds x may not think that and if I am being fair I need to note that.

I agree with your post, David, and it's admirable that you're attempting being fair but, in reality, it always seems to apply to the other guy, doesn't it?

Is anything out of God's control? I ask that fairly. For instance:

Did the Israelite's really upset God? Did he not see it coming? Was God expecting perfection from them? Or just BETTER?
God can't just sit back and let everything go according to plan - that would be lazy and kind of boring. But does God get surprised?

It's funny how often I hear preacher's say "God was fuming mad at Adam & Eve" or "God yelled at Job"...but did he really? Or was he showing his concern while events played out perfectly?

What exactly are angels for? Does this play a part? All those angel warriors and aids in the Bible, is that just to help the random opportunities go by? Possibly not - maybe God is much more in control than people think. He just likes everyone to be involved in the game.

I'm not quite sure what you're aiming for, Rod, semi-control with a long leash to keep God in stitches at our expense?

The angels are to fight all the demons when heaven and hell meet on earth.

Rod, your post confuses me. Are you appealing to mystery as to how all this fits together?

Take your first statement - I think all Christians would agree that God is in "control". That begs the question, what does the word "control" mean? Does God control the universe like a puppetmaster, moving every last particle into position (this would be determinism)? Does God control more like a chess master who is going to win the game no matter what move the opponent makes (this would be open theism).

So when the Israelites' rebelled. Did God see it coming or did God cause it to happen? If God caused it to happen so that it couldn't have not happened and then got upset, what sort of schizophrenic God do we have?

I think God is in "control" and I also think human choices are free; I am not sure how that works and I am not too worried about it.

Thanks Robert. I would like the fairness to apply to me though I'll admit I am not always fair.

I just want to be honest - I may think x (neo-Calvinism of the Piper/Sproul variety) leads to y (determinism) but being fair means that I admit those who hold x do not see it as leading to y.

On the flip side, if some think x (human freedom, synergism) leads to y (Pelagianism) that is fine but as someone who holds to x, I just want them to agree those of us who hold to x do not think it leads to what they think it leads to.

I understand, and concur completely with your point, David.

I was asking questions - not giving answers. Just thoughts. :D

You summed it up nicely David:
"I think God is in "control" and I also think human choices are free; I am not sure how that works and I am not too worried about it."

That's what i'm going with for the moment. Nothing is out of God's hands. I just hope I don't muck-up my part in all this.

Oh, you invariably will muck things up, Rod - why should you escape the slings and arrows the rest of us dodge? Take heart, though, you're forgiven. Maybe not by me or Lee, but we don't count.

That's good enough for me. (But as a Christian YOU ARE FORCED to love and forgive me Robert.) Bite on that Buddy!

There are parts of Christianity I am REAllY loathe to follow. Forgiving, actually is not one of them, but if the Bible ever implores me to forget - I'm probably off to be in the tail of that comet!