Bisky's Twitterling's Scribbles! discussion

George RR Martin is infamous for them...

My questions are; are you sick of them? Do you enjoy them? Are they rarely done correctly?

I don't know... Honestly. My son has only praise for those deaths. It keeps him on his toes. Then again, with him, every protagonist should die by the end of the story, so... He says it leaves a stronger impression when they do. You remember it longer. He's right. I'll remember not to ever read a book from that author again. :> No but seriously, when it's well done, I'm fine with it, but if I'd discover that an author kills all his/her darlings I wouldn't read their books.

I'm watching Games of Thrones on TV instead of reading it because at least, I can do something else at the same time. Too many characters, and way too many deaths for me to root for anyone, but as you can guess it, it's my son's favorite show.

When characters drop like flies I lose interest. I can't invest time in something that I might end up hating mid way because my favorite character dies.

That's why I almost know for a fact I will not finish watching Walking Dead. So many deaths, my favorite (since not the star of the show) is bound to die sooner or later. When that happens, it will 'kill' it for me. I'll turn to some other shows.

@Bisky, I don't think anyone dead in ASOIF could be qualified as 'surprise death', if you ponder about the characters that died you'll see how each and everyone of them brought it upon himself/herself by taking some moronic decision.

@Kamil, I know, I know. But it was the easiest way to explain what I meant so late at night.

(Screw you goodreads, update this post >.<)

It all depends on the writing. I have written some stories with characters dying and some without. The characters are mine to play with and I'll do what I want with them. The thing that I dislike, and this happens too often in comics, is when a character dies and then comes back somehow. If you're going to kill someone off, leave them dead.

I think it can be a very effective device. by killing off a main character it can create a powerful emotional reaction and also up the ante - suddenly all the characters at risk. @G.G. mentioned walking dead, without the deaths on that show it would be boring. The deaths represent consequences in a dangerous environment, without consequences there is little to invest in. When the audience knows that any one of the characters can walk down a zombie filled street, enter a dragon's lair, confront a serial killer single handed, etc and there never is the risk of death it takes something away from the work.

That isn't to say that it can be done badly or over done. And over done is perhaps an area we as a culture are moving into. The taboo has been shattered and people have achieved great success by utilizing the device, so there are lots of imitators. I recently read an interview with Nic Pizzolatto (creator of True Detective) in which he talked about the show's ending. (view spoiler)[ Most people thought it was a twist ending because not only did the character's not die but they actually had a redemptive moment that lifted them out of the bleak world the inhabited. Pizzolatto said he found that too many people used character's deaths as a short cut for a powerful emotive moment and he wanted to create that type of a moment without their deaths. (hide spoiler)]

P.S. @G.G. You're reaction to Game of Thrones might be different reading the books. As good as the show is, You spend much more time with the characters while reading the books, which alters the impact of their deaths. It also makes it hard not to root for some of the characters.

@Bisky, i understand that, but I simply believe GRR Martin is having an un-deserved bad reputation

I think they're immensely hard to pull off, but if they can be done right then more power to ya. I don't think every author should do it, though, unless its necessary to the book/plot. You'd be surprised how many workshops I've been in where someone copied a certain technique or style, but it didn't generate the same kind of reader-reaction because it just wasn't there; it fell flat. It was more obvious that the author was trying to mimic something than stick to the story, and that itself brings the reader out of the story, hence a lack of reaction. So, I suppose my overall concluding remark would be if the author can get away with writing surprise death scenes all the time while keeping the reader engaged, then have at it.

And I both love and agree with that Stephen King quote :3 But then again I think it's a little different when its a "surprise" or, as I took it, unexpected death than just a normal one (which can be foreshadowed, etc.).

Killing your character's just shouldn't be that complicated. It should be natural. (Was intentionally trying to sound creepy :p)

@Kamil Just to play Devils advocate, I think they could be considered a "surprise" death because the (view spoiler)[reader doesn't expect their protagonist (i.e. Ned Stark) to die. It's become the norm to believe that our protagonist has to live, (hide spoiler)] which is how it would (for me, at least) translate to a surprise or unexpected death.

When done right, they can be powerful and amp up the stakes of the book. It removes the safety net your readers feel was there just below the action. If this character can die, anything can happen. A happy ending is not promised. Thus, when victory arrives, it can feel much more satisfying and hard fought, and realistic, because not everything ended up rose colored. And of course, if the book goes the other way and ends tragically, the death can be one of the steps along the way to all going wrong. One broken cog in the shattered mechanical parts that make the great clock strike for the very last time.

Use judiciously. If no one dies, the readers can feel no tension at all. If overdone, the reader can feel betrayed for caring in the first place.

Oooohhh I love this topic!

I like killing characters very suddenly. I usually let them survive dangerous situations and then, when it's really not expected, they face a sudden and horrible death.

Muuahahahahah!
Hm, sorry.

But I agree with J. David; if you kill every single character, it gets boring.

@Nicole I think sudden unexpected deaths are natural. It happens all the time. Someone gets hit by a car, heart attacks, stroke, etc.. At any time someone can die for any reason. A 16 year old girl died here after running a half marathon. She was perfectly healthy, but a few steps after finishing the race she just dropped.

@Brian, @David, @Kamil
It’s true, people die unexpectedly in real life, but stories are real life, they’re a very contrived representation of real life. I agree that killing a main character can be very powerful, cab produce a strong emotional response, and can increase the tension and danger for all the other characters … when one main character is killed, maybe two (not that there is a set number; it will depend on MCs there are, and the specific plot), spread out over a long duration in the story.

But you still need someone with whom the reader/viewer has an emotional connection to carry the story along. I think GRRM is a little too kill-happy with his main characters, notwithstanding the fact that his story is taking place during a war. So many of the very first characters we were introduced to have been killed, I find I’ve lost a lot of interest. It takes a big emotional investment to get to know and care for a character, and I find I don’t really feel like doing that anymore in ASOIAF.

@Janna You've expressed my thoughts so well. I can't find anything to add to your post. :)

It does seem to be the theme, but then again it makes those fight scenes even more suspenseful. Just because there is a big name actor playing a part no longer means that character is safe when he/she is being shot at. More tension, more stress in the scene.

I'll admit I have done it, and when writing the scene it about killed me, but for the storyline it made sense. One surprised even me and when I wrote it I sat back and said I can't do that. But no matter how I looked at it or tried to rewrite it, it was the way it was meant to be.

@G.G. Thanks :)

@Heidi It's fun when our own characters surprise us.

I think the best surprise deaths were written byBrent Weeks; at first you're like" what? why!!!!!!!!!!", but then as the plot unfolds, the meaning and purpose is revelead and you're left with even more sorrow and grief.

I know you guys are going to tell me that I'm ridiculous, but my absolute favorite surprise character death was in a movie. I literally screamed when it happened (thank God I was at home and honestly, I'm not usually like that). To this day, I'm still not over it. I guess it's how they did it. SO RANDOM AND CRAZY. OMG. I loved it.

It was in ... (drum roll please) ... Deep Blue Sea, this mostly terrible killer shark movie from 1999. Anyone know which one I'm talking about??

S. wrote: "I know you guys are going to tell me that I'm ridiculous, but my absolute favorite surprise character death was in a movie. I literally screamed when it happened (thank God I was at home and honest..."

it's the one about genetically modified sharks that somehow break out of their containers? I think you're talking about the death that takes place few minutes before the movie ends, am I right?

Yes, that's the one!

Surprise character deaths are very effective. As authors, in fact, we need to be brave when we decide that one of our favorite (or regular) characters need deaths of characters are very emotional and sometimes quite necessary in order for us to achieve our goal with our audiences.to go. It emits emotions from the reader--sudden

But I guess to be fair and answer your questions: No, I don't like doing it--I don't like saying goodbye to a character I've become attached to (yet that is why it's so effective with the audience, because odds are they're attached, too). It's hard to be sick of them when they are often necessary.For example, In A Separate Peace, Finny's dying young, indicating to the reader that he will never grow old and his memory will live forever young. Or when Willy Loman kills himself so his son Biff can use the insurance money to start his own business. Then of course there is Giles Corey who is crushed to death by rocks in The Crucible in order to display the unspeakable acts and horrors of otherwise decent folks given over to superstition. Do I enjoy them? No. But do I understand them? Yes. As writers we should be so brave.

www.nicolemdixonauthor.com

Killing off a beloved character ought to be not to shock but to make some other point. See "One Day" by David Nicholls.

Ok, but for those who don't have the time to read that book, can you elaborate please? :)

When it comes to deaths in movies, the death of Hoban Washburn traumatised me.

@Bisky! that did not happen!!!!!

@Bisky - OMG! YES. RIGHT.

It's like they did it just because they needed something crazy to happen to wrap everything up. DID NOT LIKE.

I screamed out NOOOOO. No joke.

/blush I did a search on Hoban Washburn but hmm who's that?

I didn't put the movie in the thread so it's not a spoiler :p

Please send me a PM or put it in spoiler brackets... NOW I NEED to know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

Hahaha sorry! I was distracted by thread drama I caused xD (view spoiler)[ Go Watch joss whedons Serenity (its my favourite movie ever! :D Actually first watch the series Firefly, then the movie :3 (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[ Ohh I've seen the series and the movie, which I both loved. I just can't remember... (Runs to open google and check it again...) Oh! He's the one who dies at the command spot! (hide spoiler)]

THANKS! Indeed it was a very surprising death. :(

I have such a bad memory. The thing is I can never remember what happens in books or movies but if I see it again, or read it again then it's so clear that I can't enjoy it a second time unless I really wanted to read it or watch it again that is...

Viking is like that, he can't remember anything even if he really liked it! Means I can watch them all over again though :p

I'm totally like that, too. I hate series because I can't ever remember what happened in the book before. MAYBE the high plot points, but the details not at all. I have to reread everything before I read the most recent book, which is why I have to wait until they're all out to read them. Otherwise, like with Robert Jordan's WoT series, they just sit on my shelf unread. Fourteen books is daunting!

@S You don't have to remember the previous book in WoT. Jordan will remind you of the important stuff over and over. By the time you get to the end you will have forgotten the first book anyway even if you read them all in a row.

Oh I so agree with you Brian. As a matter of fact, with Jordan, I'd say it is better NOT to read the books one after the other and to give you time to forget about it a little. Else you might do like me and give up because of too much repetition.

Hmmm. OK. I did read through once, a long time ago (like ten years? What book was he on? Who knows). I recall thinking that he repeated all the unimportant stuff but none of the stuff I wanted to know. But maybe I will give it a go. I think I did read up through 12. So only two books. That's less daunting.

Oh, and I actually like Brandon's writing style better than Robert's, especially when it came to the Matt chapters. Sorry and RIP anyway. :(