The History Book Club discussion

Betty wrote: "I just finished the book this afternoon. I tried restraining myself, but then I couldn't hold back any longer, and ravished it.
I was very hesitant to pick this book up, since I have read so many ..."

Hi Betty - just a note that I never thought of this book as concerning the holocaust –
The non-persecuted people in this war suffered too. - although that has been addressed by others.

Kressel wrote: "Response to Betty

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[ I cannot totally agree – most of the Nazi leaders were war criminals – but even Hannah Arendt had thoughts that Eichmann was just a little man – none the less a war criminal. John Rabe, of Nanking fame, was a Nazi.

My father-in-law (I never met him) was in the SS - I don’t know if he was a Nazi but at the end of the war at the age of 17 the SS took him into an SS unit to destroy bridges. His daughter and his wife had no problems with my Jewish mother.

But I do think that lots of the Nazis were certainly war criminals – and that much of the “forgiveness” or “overlooking” came from our wanting an ally Germany to be the first layer against the Russians but I think that most Nazis did not know everything

Hannah Arendt

John Rabe

(hide spoiler)]

Response to Kressel

(view spoiler)[
I am unfamiliar with by John Rabe and his story - looked it up and bought a copy. Thanks for the reference - I have been collecting stories about rescuers, as I believe people who did exceptional things to help others during the Second World War are in many ways as hard for us to understand as those who committed atrocities. This is a new one for me, and a very interesting one. (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[

Wow – what a great book.

So these people trying to get through WW II and their experiences.

Some observations

Pg 447 – Von Rumple “he had been so certain. Certain he had found the hiding spot, solved the puzzle. Certain the stone would save him” - so I was wrong – he did not chase the stone to complete a task before dying – he hoped to get the stone and therefore avoid dying.

Pg 487 – so really what was the situation in this advanced industrial state – “At least half the girls working in the factory cannot read or write, so Jetta reads them letters that come…..” So did Mr. Doerr research and know this or was it fiction. But I imagine that this is true for some of the farm girls at least – I only mention it as I had assumed they all could read & write.

Pg 495 – we are jumped to 1974 – well I expected to continue in 1944…….. but Volkheimer has survived the war and now even has a first name Frank. His world is somewhat sad it seems to me. He was good to Werner but a German killing machine (just a comment for our other readers – not I think at all a Nazi)

Pg 509 Marie-Laure notes there are no plaques for the Germans – has her seclusion from the daily war experiences and then her one positive experience (with Werner at the end) insulated her from hate? She never “saw” dead people.

Pg 528 (as noted before by one of our other readers) Marie-Laure’s grandson says “he had killed me” referring to an electronic game. How do we make our children & grand children (we in the safe & prosperous lands) understand the hard realities of the world and the fragility of their worlds? (Not withstanding climate change) That people in Syria and other war torn lands had stability five or ten years ago?

Anyway it is a great book and I will think on it for a while and will look forward still to the comments of my fellow readers.

Marie-Laure found the key – do we think that, maybe, Werner took the stone and is still living? Hmmm…..

How young did you have to be in a war situation to not have it influence the rest of your life?

I will try to hear some Doerr interviews and maybe read some reviews or get the study guide and then I may be back.

Thanks for your company.

(hide spoiler)]

Betty wrote: "More thoughts on the book"

Response to Betty on the theme of light

(view spoiler)[We did talk about the light theme at the beginning and if you go to the glossary thread, Martin has been wonderful to discuss it in some length, along with some other motifs. It is worth stopping by and reading his thoughts.

Did anyone catch the significance of Marie-Laure's last name? LeBlanc? (hide spoiler)]

Vincent wrote: "Kressel wrote: "Response to Betty"

(view spoiler)[How very interesting it would have been to talk to your FIL. I would say that there was a lot of propagandizing going on at that time. I am sure there were those who were in some service (i.e. SS and the like) or even in the Nazi party, that may not have really understood the dogma of the party/government. I would expect that would be true for many of the youth. Likely very kind, wonderful people, following the crowd. (hide spoiler)]

Vincent wrote: "Wow – what a great book."

(view spoiler)[Vincent, I am so glad you joined us for this read. I think we had a great bunch in this discussion and I look forward to reading more posts.

I smiled when I saw your question about wondering if Werner took the stone and was still living. I half expected an appearance from him at the end, happily living somewhere away from Europe (Germany/France at the least).

I would think you'd have to be very young to not have war (at least that close) affect you, two or three, younger? (hide spoiler)]

I have to say, as a general comment to everyone here, I have thoroughly enjoyed the exchanges and the places they took me to. I am totally charmed by this type of interaction. Not the least because the commitment to reading together requires me to block time for reading in my very busy life - moments of respite... Thanks to everyone!

Hope to see you in more discussions, Geoffrey, it has been a pleasure!

Teri wrote: "Vincent wrote: "Kressel wrote: "Response to Betty"

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[So I never met my father in law - he was in 1945 a 17 year old farm boy who had I am sure been in the Hitler Youth - Germans of his time did not then ever really (I think) as adults face anything but a pretty totally homogenized society - after all all the gypsies, Jews etc were gone - those I met who would have been older (not many) didn't talk about it. I hold Germany guilty but it is harder to hold individual Germans liable. what about Werner throwing water on the victim when Frederick would not? Was Werner guilty - I think he was one year older than my FIL would have been. (hide spoiler)]

Response to Vincent

(view spoiler)[
Doerr's book provides he first "insider" view of the Hitler Youth movement I have read, and it was interesting for that. Outsider views are aplenty - I think of scenes from the film Cabaret or The Sound of Music (also to be found in the rather fascinating book upon which The Sound of Music was based, by Maria Augusta von Trapp. Von Trapp's story is interesting because it is in two parts, the pre-America first part on which the film was based, and the second part devoted to their life after arrival in the United States). I'd be interested if anyone can refer other books that deal with life within the Hitler Youth movement. (hide spoiler)]

In light of this discussion of how everyone in war is ultimately a victim and our discussion of Vietnam and Nixon elsewhere, I'm coming around to agreement. I guess it took another war involving someone else's ethnic group for me to see it.

A big part of the reason for my insight is that I belong to a Toastmasters club in which a Vietnam vet and a man from Cambodia are members. Each one has a complex story to tell. The man from Cambodia was clearly a victim - he had to flee his home - but can I blame the Vietnam vet for that? He didn't create the policy that put him there, and unlike Werner, he probably didn't see through the cruelty of that policy. He was "fighting Communism."

Of course, Nixon, Johnson, and their advisors were the guilty parties, but it seems they were victims of their own policy, too. The war seems to have driven both presidents to near or actual insanity. But still, I can never see Hitler or the Nazis as victims of their own war the way that I do LBJ.

Another book you might consider, Kressel and others, is Hiroshima Notes by Kenzaburō Ōe. We did this as a buddy read (see the link below) and it was a powerful and enlightening book. It made you see WWII from the eyes of the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I won't spoil the book, but I do want to mention that you see these people as not only victims of the bombings, but victims of their government's decision to be aggressors in WWII.

Would love for any of you to read and join in the Hiroshima Notes discussion, even though it is formally ended. I still monitor that discussion and will chime in to updates.

by Kenzaburō Ōe

Buddy Read thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Geoffrey wrote: "Response to Vincent"

(view spoiler)[Those are two of my most favorite musicals. (hide spoiler)]

Reply to Teri

I have bought the Oe book Hiroshima Notes (in French translation, as it turns out, which is available on Kindle - the English translation doesn't appear to be on Kindle...) and will give feedback on the other thread once I've had a chance to read it. Hiroshima is also one of my interests, has been for decades.

by Kenzaburō Ōe

Excellent, Geoffrey. I did buy the paperback since it wasn't on Kindle and find it interesting that the French version is available on Kindle.

Don't forget your citation format. ;-)

by Kenzaburō Ōe

Teri wrote: "Another book you might consider, Kressel and others, is Hiroshima Notes by Kenzaburō Ōe. We did this as a buddy read (see the link below) and it was a powerful and enlightening book. It made you se..."

It looks interesting, but if there's one buddy read I really want to go back to it's The Disappearing Spoon: And Other True Tales of Madness, Love, and the History of the World from the Periodic Table of the Elements.

by Sam Kean

That's on my list!

So perhaps we should do a reboot for everyone who missed it the first time.

I didn't realize we had read it in the group - maybe before I joined - I'll look.

Kressel - I didn't see any discussion threads for The Disappearing Spoon in any HBC folders. Perhaps it is from a different group?

by Sam Kean

I have had The Disappearing Spoon book you mention in the queue to read for a few years now. Maybe we could read it with HBC sometime?

Teri wrote: "Kressel - I didn't see any discussion threads for The Disappearing Spoon in any HBC folders. Perhaps it is from a different group?

[bookcover:The Disappearing Spoon: And Other True Tales of Madnes..."

I don't know where I got the idea that you had, but I second the notion of reading it as a group now.

Now that it's October 30, I hope we can talk about the ending.

(view spoiler)[Do I understand this correctly? Werner helped Marie-Laure put the house with the gem in it out to sea. Later he went back to the shore looking for it, and miraculously, he found the house. If he found the gem, either he threw it back out to sea or somehow it got destroyed with him. So how did the key get into the house and what does it open? (hide spoiler)]

Geoffrey wrote: "Response to Vincent


Doerr's book provides he first "insider" view of the Hitler Youth movement I have read, and it was interesting for that. Outsider views are aplenty - I think of scenes from th..."

Hi Geoffrey - thanks

I have downloaded a sample of the Trapp book on my Kindle and will try to look at it.

My list of book reading and to read so far is so long..................

I really want to read a good Hitler biography and a good George Washington biography soon and would like to see the HBC do that - in a regular format - not the one month like this one as I would want more time to ponder and think and share views.

Response to Betty

I will go through my books about Hitler and see if I can recommend one or two biographies - I have read several. There is one that comes to mind, but it is not biography in any straightforward way, although it is fascinating. by Brigitte Hamann(no photo) is really a work of scholarship that tries to paint a portrait of Hitler during his four years spent in Vienna (1908 to 1912 I think). For at least two years of that time, there is very little documented evidence of what he did - he kind of disappeared off the radar. So Hamman focusses on trying to understand the Vienna of that era as a way to situate how he developed and who he became. It makes for fascinating reading. Another comment about Hitler - although there are some good biographies and scholarly studies of his life, there aren't a ton of them - fewer than you would expect, given his importance as a historic figure. I have long reflected about this, there is kind of an "allergic reaction" to grappling with the paradoxes of his life. Good luck with your reading list. I set a target of 100 books for this year, and I'm way behind, I'll be lucky to read 50...

Response to Betty (continued)

The most complete and informative biography of Hitler I read was by Ian Kershaw, which is actually an abridged version of his earlier biography in two volumes, and by Ian Kershaw. Although a scholarly work, I found it quite approachable, focusing on not just facts and events but also insight into the person. There may be others that are written for a more general audience, but Kershaw's book is probably one of the cornerstones. Several other biographies written earlier than Kershaw's book appear to draw on source material that is flawed or inaccurate, so one needs to be careful. Kershaw has written several other books on other aspects of his life and the Third Reich, not all of which I've read. I tend to limit my reading about Hitler to small doses at a time, otherwise I get very depressed.

Kressel wrote: "Now that it's October 30, I hope we can talk about the ending.

[spoilers removed]"

Absolutely!

The spoiler below contains spoilers to the end of the book/story. Proceed if you have read the ending of the book or want to know the ending of the book.

(view spoiler)[See Chapters 175 and 176: The Key and Sea of Flames. Together, Marie-Laure and Werner goes to the grotto. It is as high tide so while in the somewhat flooded grotto, she has Werner put the puzzle box with the diamond in the water. They soon leave and part.

As I read it, Marie-Laure is imagining the following events. Werner then goes back to the grotto, as Marie-Laure leaves the key in Werner's hand as they part. He takes the puzzle box. We are told about the diamond falling in the grotto on the snails, the rocks, the algae, etc.

When Marie-Laure gets the box at the end, it contains, not the diamond, but the key.

Knowing the story/curse of the diamond, what do you think happened? (hide spoiler)]

Kressel and Geoffery ~

Great ideas for buddy reads. I would suggest you post them at the following link for consideration on upcoming reads. Bentley is the ultimate decision maker, but is always happy to take suggestions.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I have finally finished reading the book.

(view spoiler)[I am still sad about Werner's death. Someone here said that they wanted to believe that Werner took the stone and continued living. If that were the truth, do you think he would have gone back to find Marie-Laure? Helene would then be his child. (hide spoiler)]

Geoffrey wrote: "Response to Betty (continued)

The most complete and informative biography of Hitler I read was by Ian Kershaw, which is act..."

Yes - I was thinking of the Kershaw books.

Samanta wrote: "I have finally finished reading the book.

[spoilers removed]"

Response to Samanta/book ending

(view spoiler)[I liked how the book ended, but I tend to like things left to our imagination (not always, but often). However, if Werner had lived, I think he would have gone back for Marie-Laure and the others. How do you think his relationship with her would have played out? As well as his relationships with Volkheimer, Frederick, and Jutta. Do you think that Frederick and Volkheimer would be different people than the way they were depicted, if Werner were in their lives? Was Werner everyone's light that was snuffed out at the end? Lots to imagine! (hide spoiler)]

Response to Teri

(view spoiler)[I would like to imagine that there would be a love story between them. They were both such beautiful individuals. And they both "see" each other without really seeing each other. He fell in love with her listening to her reading on the radio and she is blind, but sees the person he is.
I'm not sure about your next question. I do think Volkheimer was very fond of Werner and that he misses him. Why is it that he decided to repair people's antennas? He wasn't a scientist in Hiter's Youth nor was he an expert on the subject (that's how I understood it, anyway). I'm not sure about Frederick either because he was pretty far gone mentally and I do not know what Werner, if he had lived, could have done about it. I do think that Jutta definitely needed him. She was left practically alone in the world and then she was raped. That's the worst possible scenario for a girl her age and later woman who had to continue living her life. I do think he was the light, at least to Volkheimer and Jutta. (hide spoiler)]

Geoffrey wrote: "Response to Betty (continued)

The most complete and informative biography of Hitler I read was by Ian Kershaw, which is act..."

Hello, Geoffrey! When mentioning books other than that we are discussing, put the citations at the end of your post (and not inside your text) because it's better visible to other members. Inside the text just write the name of the book(s) like normal text. Like this:

The most complete and informative biography of Hitler I read was by Ian Kershaw, which is actually an abridged version of his earlier biography in two volumes.

all by Ian Kershaw

The same goes for message 176:

by Brigitte Hamann (no photo)

This was a great book! It's been a couple of months since I read it, so forgive me for going off of memory.
(view spoiler)[ I agree with Geoffery about Frederick's role in the book. I personally thought it was interesting that his father's position held no meaning/protection while Frederick was in school. To me, I think that underscored just how brutal the Nazis were.

The one part I didn't understand was why the author flashed to Frederick at his apartment, when he stopped drooling and recognized the bird (an owl, I believe)? I'm not sure what purpose that accomplished.
(hide spoiler)]

Thanks for joining us, Katie. It's never too late to discuss.

(view spoiler)[I was puzzled about this too and would love to hear other's thoughts. At the time, I just felt that the author was having Frederick make a connection with the birds and assumed it had no significance beyond that. Like there was still something that he recognized and related to. (hide spoiler)]

Teri wrote: "Thanks for joining us, Katie. It's never too late to discuss.

[spoilers removed]"

I agree, I would love to hear what others took away from this part, too! I feel like maybe I missed something? =)

(view spoiler)[ I almost wondered if that was an indication that Frederick had made a full recovery? And now that I've read a few other comments on here, I wonder if Frederick's "miracle" is related to Werner's life in any way? I think someone suggested in a previous post that Frederick was like Werner's conscious. So based on that theory, the day Frederick was beaten was the day Werner's soul/conscious went "dark" and it didn't clear up until Frederick recognized the bird? Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
(hide spoiler)]

Katie wrote: "Teri wrote: "Thanks for joining us, Katie. It's never too late to discuss.

[spoilers removed]"
.."

(view spoiler)[I don't think you're reading too much into it at all. But I hadn't really thought about it, but I think you're right. They were definitely connected. (hide spoiler)]

This YouTube video - 9 minutes - might be of interest - it is Catholic oriented and doesn't even mention Frederick but worth the time and http://youtu.be/2mDhWYIq8f4

Thanks for the link! Please add it to the glossary thread when you have a chance:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I am in Australia - with only a smart phone - will try to remember when I get back end of March