SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Anyone disappointed by the "mystery solved" announcement by NASA? Perchlorate salts containing water molecules? I guess the more hints of water on Mars there are, the better, but this was a huge, hyping teaser on NASA's part.
I was expecting an android-doppelganger of Matt Damon at least!
r/Steve

They found something we pretty much already knew was there. Yippee.

Joe,
I'm pretty sure that yippee classifies as irony. My new novel has the conjecture of ancient lava tubes with ice crystals. I thought that was a safe conjecture until Matt Damon is back on Earth with the scoop about water and so forth.
I wonder how we can turn this into a vote about how many are impressed by the NASA announcement. That would be fun! Any ideas? Where are the monitors when we need them? ;-)
r/Steve

It's just that we already know Mars has water. When they announced a "major scientific finding," didn't you immediately wonder if they were going to announce even fossilized microbial life or something? "We found water on a planet that has ice caps" wasn't exactly a revelation. :p

Joe, We're violently in agreement. The way they did it was annoying too. Reminds me of regular news programs: "Wonder what X was doing in the street in his pajamas. See the answer in our next segment." I-don't-care teasers are all too common now. NASA should be a wee bit ashamed at least...and know better.
r/Steve

Joe wrote: "It's just that we already know Mars has water. When they announced a "major scientific finding," didn't you immediately wonder if they were going to announce even fossilized microbial life or some..."

We didn't Know it.
The existence of water was postulated because it was one way of explaining some of the evidence

The presence of Perchlorate salts explains how water could remain a liquid on Mars even now, as opposed to having be trapped in the solid form millions of years ago.

I expected at least some Aliens :D no but it was kind of disappointing since they aren't even sure if there really is water. The possibility is there but they didn't see water yet.. They set the expectations very high with their secret announcement. It wasn't that great but still interesting

When did space become so boring?

Ryan wrote: "When did space become so boring?"

For most people, just after Apollo 14.

Was that the one with Tom Hanks?

Ryan wrote: "Was that the one with Tom Hanks?"

That was Apollo 13.

Cheers Ken. It was certainly a tough act to follow.

OK. Let's get back on track here with a reality check. Space is the final frontier and is never boring. That NASA makes it so and the government cuts the hell out of space research is another issue. Generally speaking, science is a slog: three steps forward, two steps back sometimes, maybe four or five when a paradigm shift is needed (QM, electroweak renormalization, etc). It's the bureaucracy of science that's boring!
r/Steve

Geez, stop with all the instant gratification stuff, will ya? ];P

The big deal is the discovery of liquid water on Mars. As in water that flows on the surface on a regular basis. We've known there's water locked in the polar ice caps for a long time. But until now there's been no evidence of flowing water.

This year has actually be a very exciting time in space science, what with the Ceres and Pluto missions, a study of Enceladus revealing a potential global ocean of liquid water below the ice of this Saturnian moon, the continuing mission of Rosetta on comet 67P...

Science (especially space science) tends to move in small steps and there have been a continuous stream of them. They may not be big sexy expensive dangerous manned missions that the media loves to fixate on for a week (and governments refuse to fund), but if you're actively watching, it's almost too much to keep track of.

It is indeed very exciting.

@ Micah, I featured the Enceladus ocean in my new novel. Our comments probably crossed because your last paragraph basically echos my last comment. I use Science News and science websites to try to keep track of new advances. My basic impression is science is moving forward nicely, even with budget cuts. My specialized scientific background morphed into everyone else's as I struggle to keep up with the advances. As a sci-fi writer, that's a must.
As for liquid water, the icecaps wax and wane, so there must be liquid water there too. It isn't clear that brine qualifies as water either--I soak my corned beef in brine, not water. If all water on Mars were brine, we'd need some serious desalination plants. We'll probably get a lot of experience with them in CA very soon because of the drought. :-) Does perchlorate saltwater require a new technology for desalination? Any chemical engineers out there?
r/Steve

Actually, there are some microbiological creatures that are known to be very tough and hardy, with a number of them having proven to be able to survive even in the void of space. So, it is not impossible that some life forms could adapt to brine. If there are indeed aquifers under the surface of Mars and they are made of brine, then there could be life today on Mars, maybe even the equivalent of primitive fish. The next possible big news from Mars could thus be the discovery of underground aquifer layers full of brine.

@ Michel, Agreed. Life around vents in the deep ocean on Earth and hot springs indicate temperature and pressure might not be large constraints either. Exciting stuff.
r/Steve

@ All, I might have created a firestorm and then arrived to put it out? Looks like there's a lot of excitement about space travel still around. That's great. As long as we're not so farfetched to be absurd. Someone in another thread mentioned dino-porn. Sci-fi? I think not, at least not the sci-!
r/Steve

Steven wrote: "As for liquid water, the icecaps wax and wane, so there must be liquid water there too. "

Well, not necessarily. Because a lot of Mars's polar ice caps are frozen carbon dioxide, not water. And in any case water can go directly from solid to gaseous form, so there need not be a liquid transitional state involved in the poles' annual "waxing and waning."

@ Micah, Point well taken. CO2 can certainly sublimate, but I'll have to check the phase-transition diagram for water. The fog one sees above a frozen lake in the sunshine is produced by a thin surface of liquid, for example. H2O is pretty complicated, though. And I once taught this stuff!
Good thread, now that we're back to basics. ;-)
r/Steve

Steven wrote: "OK. Let's get back on track here with a reality check. Space is the final frontier and is never boring. That NASA makes it so and the government cuts the hell out of space research is another issue. Generally speaking, science is a slog: three steps forward, two steps back sometimes, maybe four or five when a paradigm shift is needed (QM, electroweak renormalization, etc). It's the bureaucracy of science that's boring!"

So they announced a major discovery -- and it IS major if you aren't a typical nitwit who believes in Ancient Aliens and similar nonsense -- and you're mad because... there's bureaucracy? Or something?

Which makes it boring/not-boring? Is this some kind of Schrodinger-esque woo-woo stoner nonsense or something?

I'm really not following what the annoyance is here. Is your book this confusing, too?

Steven wrote: "And I once taught this stuff!"

Well THAT is a terrifying thought.

No offense man, but I literally can't follow what you're disappointed about.

I actually thought this was a pretty cool announcement. I'd be interested what everybody thinks about a chance of life in that salt water?

If microbes and other micro-organisms can survive on small asteroids or comets in the void of space, then why not in salt water? It has mineral nutrients aplenty, plus water.

@ T, B, M: I'm doing a self-analysis and have come up with why I was annoyed: it was the manner of presentation. First, the weekend-long teaser. I'm sick of them in general. Teasers often hide little or no news content. Second, NASA's hype WAS over the top. Science should be home for logic and reason, not rock-star publicity. Third, the first press releases I saw only talked about perchlorate salts--I imagined crystals--no mention was made of trickling brine. Subsequent reading cleared that up.
Bottom line: this is a big deal, and I'll change my tune.
@ Trike, I spend a little more time writing a sci-fi novel than I do posts in social media. In the process of writing, there's always confusion. In the final product, I don't want any to remain (unintentional ones at least--misdirects in mysteries are AOK). So your question was a bit insulting. Re my "And I taught this stuff!": I was only referring to the phase diagram for H2O. I couldn't remember it. Do you? I haven't taught or done research in stat mech and thermodynamics for thirty years. I'm still disappointed I don't remember that phase diagram, though. ;-)
r/Steve

Michel wrote, "If microbes and other micro-organisms can survive on small asteroids or comets in the void of space, then why not in salt water?"

Have they found microbes on asteroids or comets? That would be awesome. Last I heard they had found organic material (I think meaning carbon chains) but I hadn't heard about microbes. I could be way out of it too!

Bruce wrote: "I actually thought this was a pretty cool announcement. I'd be interested what everybody thinks about a chance of life in that salt water?"

Reference halophiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halophile

So, yes, it's possible.

Any new news out of NASA is exciting to me.

Nice boost for the new The Martian movie opening soon...

Trike wrote: "Steven wrote: "And I once taught this stuff!"

Well THAT is a terrifying thought.

No offense man, but I literally can't follow what you're disappointed about."

Totally terrifying!!! :-) And I completely agree with posts 22 & 23!

Ha! Are we all nuts? ML, did you read #26? Or, did you mean it's terrifying that someone could teach something so esoteric? :-) Actually, stat mech and thermodynamics is pretty simple once you understand the underlying statistics of complex (classical or quantum) systems.
Re the Heisenberg/Schrodinger stuff, I can give a woo-woo great definition of an entangled quantum state. Does that make me weird? I suppose, but a I had to make a living some way, even though I'd always rather be writing genre fiction. ;-)
BTW, I checked out the phase diagram for water to refresh ye olde synapses, and there is a tiny region where water can sublimate, so whoever said that about Martian polar ice was spot on and deserves an A+!
Many famous sci-fi writers (we'd call them classics today?) were scientists before they turned to writing sci-fi-- Asimov, Benford, Heinlein, Hoyle, to name a few. I'm not famous in either field, but sci-fi motivated me to become a scientist when I was looking for a day-job to put food on the table.
'Nough science and confession for now maybe?
r/Steve

Steven wrote: "...so whoever said that about Martian polar ice was spot on and deserves an A+!"

\O/ VICTORY IS MINE! \O/

And I flunked out of physics class (and engineering altogether).

Ryan wrote: "When did space become so boring?"

Oh I know right? I'd rather investigate the ocean now. There's some creepy things we're waiting to discover down deep.

Erin (Paperback stash) *is juggle-reading* wrote: "...I'd rather investigate the ocean now. There's some creepy things we're waiting to discover are now endangered because of human activity down deep."

Fixed that for you.

;(

I think a lot of folks were hoping for something like the trailer for Armageddon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq6q2...

LOL & bless!

Water (or salt-water) was postulated for Mars years ago (late 70's??) so this is no surprise for many peeps.

Yes; SF writers are adept at prediction and I have no problem in allowing 'possibilities'.

NASA PR needs to generate interest in the Space Program, so that's why we get 'leading' and/or 'teasing' announcements.

@ Steven - totally agree :)

But...I have (in my possession) a paper outlining a construct for the proving of various scientific constants, and the proof (using this construct) of the existence of Dark Matter.

THAT is scary; and no, I will not elaborate until the paper is accepted and published (which we are in the process of achieving).

"They found something we pretty much already knew was there. Yippee. "

This is the difference between science and speculation (or religion). Science has a process to PROVE theories...instead of just TELLING everyone what to believe despite zero proof.

That little tidbit aside, proving that there's LIQUID water on the SURFACE of Mars is a pretty big deal and should be very exciting to people with a modicum of science education.

Yes, everyone suspected. But going through the rigorous scientific process now proves it.

Emphasis words MINE. =)

Joe wrote: "It's just that we already know Mars has water. When they announced a "major scientific finding," didn't you immediately wonder if they were going to announce even fossilized microbial life or something? "We found water on a planet that has ice caps" wasn't exactly a revelation."

LIQUID water flowing on the surface...H2O. Not frozen water, or almost non-existent whispy clouds of water vapor. But LIQUID.

HUGE deal. It's one of the building blocks for life.

OK, we've converged on a consensus: the NASA announcement was a big deal. And maybe we're all a little nuts and a wee bit crazy about sci-fi and science.
@ Carole-Ann, I think it was either Dyson or Dirac who postulated that some "universal constants" weren't really constant. And Dark Matter is about the only way we presently have to explain the dynamics of galaxies. (I reviewed a book for Bookpleasures on dark energy and dark matter--once again the nexus between particle physics and cosmology.) Sorry--I need my science fix for today because caffeine's running low. ;-)
r/Steve

@ Steven What was the book you reviewed? Would love to check out !! :)

Carole-Ann wrote: "Water (or salt-water) was postulated for Mars years ago (late 70's??) so this is no surprise for many peeps."

MARTIANS have also been postulated on Mars for years, too. Proof is different from speculation.

It's interesting how language is used to keep science a closed society. If you're not with us you're against us.

Bruce wrote: "Michel wrote, "If microbes and other micro-organisms can survive on small asteroids or comets in the void of space, then why not in salt water?"

Have they found microbes on asteroids or comets? Th..."

According to recent newspaper reports, fossilized microbes were found inside a meteorite that came from Mars. It is however impossible to know for sure until when they were still alive.

Thanks Michel. Now that you mentioned it, I do remember reading about that.

Carole-Ann wrote: "LOL & bless!

Water (or salt-water) was postulated for Mars years ago (late 70's??) so this is no surprise for many peeps.

..."


Actually Water was postulated back in 1877 when Schiaparelli described the Martian canals :-)

Yeah, I remember looking at "science" books in my elementary school library, back in the first grade and seeing those canals... I think they called them "canali"?? Or maybe I'm just hungry for something sweet. Yet the big news, in my opinion, is not that brine was found on Mars today, but what that "finding" may mean about the Mars of yesterday. We now have "strong evidence" that liquid water may once have been fairly abundant on Mars, and that means life may have thrived there at one time. If that is true, then the Martian asteroids seeding life on earth theories could also be true. But here's the BIG POINT. Scientists have speculated for decades about the potential existence of life on other planets, asteroids, etc., but if we actually found convincing evidence of life, would the fact that we "postulated" about it in the past reduce it's significance?I think not.

@ Carole-Ann,
Thanks for your interest. The book about dark energy and dark matter I reviewed was: Katherine Freese, The Cosmic Cocktail, Princeton U. Press, 2014. It's notable for two reasons: it delves into the issues w/o being overtly technical, as every pop sci book should do; and it's also the story about how Freese became respected in a male-dominated field (you have to read between the lines a wee bit to get that). The imprint is certainly respectable, btw. :-)
Enjoy!
r/Steve
While I write sci-fi, mystery, and thriller books, my reading tastes are farther ranging. On the "Steve's Bookshelf" page at my website, you'll see more non-fiction than fiction. I'm currently slogging through a Churchill bio; it's a slog only because the man did so much, even during the war years.

@ Steven - Many thanks :) Will check that out :)

Jon wrote: "Yeah, I remember looking at "science" books in my elementary school library, back in the first grade and seeing those canals... I think they called them "canali"?? Or maybe I'm just hungry for something sweet..."

"Canali" is Italian for "channels."

"Cannoli" is the dessert pastry.

@ Carole, I reread my review so I can warn you ahead of time about some confusing and/or misleading graphs--not quite as bad as Gore's in his global warming movie, though. By and large, the book is a pretty good non-technical intro to the state of the art in dark energy/dark matter science.
@ All, Piece of trivia: They were named "canali" because their discoverer, Schiaparelli (It.), thought they were waterways. Another piece of trivia: In Gulliver's Travels, Jonathon Swift mentions that Mars has two small moons invisible on Earth. Years later, Deimos and Phobos (sp?) were discovered. Lucky guess, or, was Swift a Martian? ;-)
Some nostalgia: I once taught Astronomy too, a non-technical elective course for ANY student. This was in SA, and the non-technical students (AKA social science and humanities students) loved this kind of trivia. My explanation of centripetal force included a description of the Brit's artillery not hitting their target in a battle off Chile. Lots of audience participation there on how it would occur off a Colombian coast (practically the equator). Science can be a lot of fun, even without sci-fi! ;-)
r/Steve
PS. Cannoli and baklava are two of my weaknesses.