Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

This thread is for discussion of the content of our 4th Qtr 2015 Long group read,
The Stand by Stephen King

Feel free to post spoilers for the book in this thread.

As this is a long book, it might help to start your posts by letting us know what chapter you are in at present or the approximate location in the book.

Chapter 5 - I can't remember the exact sequence of events or how his character arc plays out, but I think Pocket Savior is interesting choice for the title of Larry's album.

Also, I really wonder where Larry would have ended up if Wayne Stuckey hadn't dragged him out on the beach for a heart to heart.

Chapter 11 - Poor Larry! He's such a loser, but not enough of a jerk that I don't feel bad for him. It has to be heartbreaking to get called out by your mom like that.

I am on chapter 28 and have found it surprising how long it is taking this pandemic to really take hold to kill everyone. Or maybe it just seems that way since it jumps back and between characters and locations. I really like Nick. He has had such a crummy start in life, but he is a good guy even to the guys who robbed and beat him. I am eager for something besides people getting sick and dying while the select few live. Hope something else happens soon.

One of my all time favorate books. Looking forward to the reread :)

Chapter 31 - Flagg says he has pills that could cure Kit Bradenton. I don't think he has the power to cure the Superflu, but it made me wonder - Do you all think Flagg played a role in the creation of this flu virus? Did he help it in its escape?

Chapter 35 - Larry is getting to be my favorite character. He struggles so much against the weak parts of his nature. As everything in the world falls apart, he begins to build himself into a good man. It's a long road to Hemmingford Home though.

Also, the Lincoln Tunnel is SO scary! It gets me because it's almost all suspense and the power of the imagination with little violence or gore...at least compared to most horror fiction.

Chapter 36 - Just trivia: The book Fran reads to Gus at the start of the chapter, Rimfire Christmas, is written by Bobbi Anderson, one of the main characters in King's novel The Tommyknockers.

Nathan wrote: "Chapter 35 - Larry is getting to be my favorite character. He struggles so much against the weak parts of with nature. As everything in the world falls apart, he begins to build himself into a good..."

Nathan I love the character of Larry for the reasons you've outlined. And SK has left me with a lifetime fear of tonnels!

Just so you all know, I had nightmares about sick people last night.

Nathan wrote: "Chapter 11 - Poor Larry! He's such a loser, but not enough of a jerk that I don't feel bad for him. It has to be heartbreaking to get called out by your mom like that."

I loved that scene. However, King describes Larry's mom as looking so old and she is only in her early 50's! Not so old to me.

Finished last night - have myself a new favourite King novel :-) It was heartbreaking and you can't help wonder how they are going to do, very reassuring that (view spoiler)['the good ones' won, but scary that 'Ralph' comes back in the end... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 51 - I don't really like the minutes of the committee meeting as a format. It's a huge info dump and then it gets really corny at the end.

Chapter 52 - I do like that Kojak comes back and I think it's cool we get some of his story.

Our discussion has stalled a bit. I'm guessing people have either finished, or are waiting to finish another book (or 2) first before tackling this one. For me, that is the bad thing about long reads -- I am always saying to myself, "I've got three months, I'll just finish this other book first."

Happy Reading All.

I am slowly plodding through. I just finished chapter 46 where Stu's group is travelling to Nebraska and are currently in Ohio. They are all taking sedatives at night to reduce the likelihood of dreams since everyone is having such bad nightmares of the dark man.

I am enjoying the various group dynamics that have evolved with Nick as the leader of his group even though he is clearly at a disadvantage as a deaf mute. Stu is his group's natural leader, but he has to deal with Harold's immaturity and jealousy over Fran. And Larry is changing and becoming responsible and maybe the nice guy that he never was before.

At this point there hasn't been much about Randall Flagg and I am glad. I want to avoid him as long as possible. Gotta love a 108 year old black woman as the beacon of good.

Laurie wrote: "At this point there hasn't been much about Randall Flagg and I am glad. I want to avoid him as long as possible. Gotta love a 108 year old black woman as the beacon of good. "

I was a little surprised how long it takes for Flagg and Mother Abigail to become important characters in the story. I think it works well that way though.

Chapter 45 and 57 - It's clear to me that at least two characters have the psychic ability King calls "the shining", Mother Abigail and Leo/Joe. Mother Abigail even uses that term to describe her gift:

"I started having dreams two years before this plague ever fell. I've always dreamed and sometimes my dreams have come true. Prophecy is the gift of God and everyone has a smidge of it. My own grandmother used to call it the shining lamp of God, sometimes just the shine."

In the case of Leo, when he's reading Larry's thoughts in 57, it is punctuated in the same way as telepathy/shining is in both The Shining and Doctor Sleep.

I'm in chapter 58 now. There are a lot of characters I like in this story, not necessarily because they are likable people, but because they change in interesting ways over the course of the narrative. Nick Andros, Larry Underwood, Harold Lauder, Nadine Cross, Tom Cullen, Mother Abigail and the Trashcan Man all have interesting character arcs.

I find Stu Redman and Fran Goldsmith pretty boring. They start off interesting, but after they're a couple they both feel really static. Fran's only change seems to be gestation and Stu just goes from regular good ol' boy to smarmy good ol' boy. I wish King killed off Stu with Harold's bomb rather than Nick.

I had this on loan from the library so I pushed myself to get it finished before it has to be returned first of the week. Having finished, I can unequivocally say that Stephen King is just not for me. I could not suspend my disbelief well enough to enjoy or accept Flagg's character. It was hard to discern why he is all-powerful in some contexts and limited in others.

Nick's loss seemed unnecessary and pointless. I liked Stu and Fran less and less as they went along. I kept thinking about all the logistics of this situation that would make most of what happens in the book unlikely (notwithstanding the supernatural part of the story). I hated the ending. Stu and Fran heading back for Maine. Seriously?

Please don't pummel me. I recognize that for those who like this genre, King is the king. I felt compelled to read one of his novels and have a first hand opinion. I've got it now and it confirms what I really already knew, he isn't for me. I don't like Twilight or The Walking Dead and never got into the campy humor of Buffy the Vampire Slayer when it was popular. It just isn't me. I believe I will run on back to the 19th Century for a while and decompress.

I think we all have author's that are just not right for our reading tastes. And that is absolutely fine, in fact it makes the world more interesting.

Sara wrote: "Please don't pummel me. I recognize that for those who like this genre, King is the king. I felt compelled to read one of his novels and have a first hand opinion. "

King is my favorite and I really like this book, but I don't fault you at all for not liking it. There are a lot of things I don't like about it too. I think the things you mentioned are a good rundown of most of this novel's weakest points. Anyone who will take on a 1000+ page book they're dubious about liking deserves a lot of respect. Sorry it wasn't for you!

Sara, I agree with Nathan that it is impressive that you tackled such a long novel as your test of King's work. It is certainly his magnum opus, but there are so many shorter books you could have chosen so no one can say you didn't give him a fair shot. I read several of his books years ago (including The Stand) and gave up after a while after getting disgusted with the less palatable stuff in some of them. I read 11/22/63 a few years ago since it is an alternate history/time travel novel rather than horror. And it wasn't bad. But his horror books won't ever be on my TBR.

Sara, I agree with the others, it's admirable that you read the whole book before you made up your mind about King and his work. I've also felt that small shock that happens when you realize you dislike a book that a vast majority love. I too don't care much for the horror genre and as much as I have enjoyed the three books I've read by King I will be selective about the ones I read in the future. I totally agree with your about Twilight, The Walking Dead, and Buffy the vampire Slayer, I'd rather have my eyebrows waxed off then to read one of those books. Enjoy the 19th Century I certainly do.

Bob, Laurie, Nathan and Kathy...thank you so much.

Through the first section, Captain Tripps. I only remember one place where it was mentioned that the disease was called Captain Tripps, but missed why? Can anyone clue me in?

Kathy wrote: "Through the first section, Captain Tripps. I only remember one place where it was mentioned that the disease was called Captain Tripps, but missed why? Can anyone clue me in?"

I know it's called that in the short story Night Surf too, but I don't think it's ever really explained why. My guess is that it got the nickname because the afflicted hallucinate. It's a play on acid trip.

Thanks, Nathan -- that makes sense.

Who has finished?
Who is still reading?

I am not finished, but this will be an easy one to get done by the end of December -- in fact I imagine I'll be finished in a couple of weeks.

I finished this a few days ago, and I have been trying to gather my thoughts. I definitely didn't come away with the same impression that I did when I read this in my teens. Then it was my first apocalyptic type novel, so this blew me away. Now I have read a few that strike me as much more realistic.

Of course none of the others had the supernatural element that The Stand has, but there are other things that didn't add up. Like why does everyone except Mother Abagail seem to be white. Are there no other minorities that survived? And what about people from other countries who were stranded here on vacation or a business trip? So in this aspect, I found Station Eleven to be superior in what I consider realistic in a flu-type pandemic.

The hero of The Stand is supposed to be Stu, but he was a pretty uninteresting character to me. Nick would have been my choice for the hero of the story because he seemed a more multi-dimensional character. I disagree with Sara that Nick's death was unnecessary. I think he needed to be dead to help Tom in his dreams at the end.

The most interesting aspect of the book is how the main five male characters, Stu, Larry, Harold, Ralph and Lloyd don't see themselves the way others see them in the aftermath of the plague. Stu doesn't seem himself as a leader, Larry doesn't see that he can be dependable and self-sacrificial, Harold doesn't see that he can be likeable, Ralph and Lloyd don't see that they can be smart. All of them finally see that they have these respective qualities, but it takes going through the worst imaginable things to see these things in themselves.

My other gripe is that pretty much all of the women are uninteresting characters as well. Frannie has the biggest role in the novel, and she doesn't seem to grow or change as a person. Dayna would have been the only woman I would have liked to know more about. The rest of them are kind of cardboard, boring characters.

And of course the end of the novel was a serious disappointment, to me anyway. (view spoiler)[I waited for a huge showdown between the good and the bad guys, and I think having a nuclear bomb accidently set off by Flagg and destroying all of his followers and plus the two good-guy sacrifices is a real cop-out. (hide spoiler)]

I still gave this novel four stars, but it could have been 5 with a different ending and some other tweaks.

Love your thoughts, Laurie. Thank you for sharing with us. I wish that I would have read this much earlier in life -- now I've read so many other apocalyptic books that I am already comparing this one to others, such as Station Eleven.

Laurie wrote: "I finished this a few days ago, and I have been trying to gather my thoughts. I definitely didn't come away with the same impression that I did when I read this in my teens. Then it was my first ap..."

Great points, Laurie. I concede that Nick does have to die if he is to visit Tom in his dreams.

Laurie wrote: "I finished this a few days ago, and I have been trying to gather my thoughts. I definitely didn't come away with the same impression that I did when I read this in my teens. Then it was my first ap..."

Laurie i agree with most of what you say. I'd never realised it before that all the main characters are white, men. I suppose we were so conditionsed in the 80's that I'd never noticed! I can't agree about the ending tho. It couldn't have ended any other way. Hugh explosion, only Stu left to bear witness. Class!

I also agree that Station Eleven was in many ways superior as a post-apocalyptic novel (loved the museum) but noone can touch King as a story teller.

Margo, I absolutely agree that King is a great storyteller. I was right there with Larry in the Lincoln Tunnel and with Lloyd as he was starving in his cell. But I still think the end was weak.

Laurie wrote: "... there are other things that didn't add up. Like why does everyone except Mother Abagail seem to be white. Are there no other minorities that survived? And what about people from other countries who were stranded here on vacation or a business trip?"

I've read all of King's fiction, most of the books at least twice. I think your critique is very accurate. This is one of his earliest novels and he has grown quite a bit since writing it. His later works feature some very compelling female characters and a much more diverse cast in many ways.

Fear of failure probably plays a role in why this is such a white dude driven story. If you're a 30 y/o white guy, surrounded by almost-entirely straight white people in the 1970s, going outside that box is a real challenge. But, yeah, the story suffers somewhat because of it.

Time to check in ... Where are you in the book?

I'm about at the halfway point in the book. I am at the point where the chapters discuss the gathering together of the difference characters. I'm enjoying this section as King fleshes out the characters a bit more. He includes an underlying sexual tension that gives the book a more gritty human survival feel.

I finished this a couple of days ago. I found it a slow read. I was also recognised the 'over-representation' of white men. I agree with Laurie's and Nathan's comments above. The ending was a disappointment for me.

This is not my favourite genre, but I am pleased to have read this one. It was quite a slog. 3 stars.

Lesley wrote: "I finished this a couple of days ago. I found it a slow read. I was also recognised the 'over-representation' of white men. I agree with Laurie's and Nathan's comments above. The ending was a disap..."

Good job on finishing. I'll finish before the year is out. Hopefully sooner.

The further I get into this book with the detonation of civilization the harder it is to read -- the language gets rougher and rougher.

A bit more than half-way through. It looks like our main characters have arrived at one of the two camps -- Boulder vs. Las Vegas. I'm assuming we are getting ready for the final showdown? This has been a slog for me to get this far -- and it seems like we are going nowhere. Do I continue?

Kathy I've hated some books the world at large seemed to love and it appears this might be true in your case with The Stand. Unfortunately its hard for me to offer impartial advise since I thought the book was great, a real page turner. I hope you can stick it out, that being said I do hope it gets better for you. I admit it’s a different kind of read.

Laurie wrote: "I am on chapter 28 and have found it surprising how long it is taking this pandemic to really take hold to kill everyone. Or maybe it just seems that way since it jumps back and between characters ..."

I think that it's great how it takes so long. I feel compelled to point out that I'm not a horror nut. I'm really a fan of history and philosophy, it's just that horror (hardship) tends to bring out the best and worst in humanity.

In most Zombie flicks the lead up to the end of the world is fast, which is disappointing because that is the most fascinating time. I have read the Stand, listened on tape and watched the movie several times and the best parts are the beginning and middle.

It is no accident that Glen Bateman an outsider and a sociologist. I think Stephen King made Redmond his hero because Stu was the sort of man King wished he was (him and Larry) but Harold Lauder was the negative side of how he really saw himself and Bateman was the sort of man that King aspired to be.

A horror writer is a sociologist and there is no better writer of this sort than King. So King is very interested in how society falls apart and how it comes back together. This is the depth of King's writing. (I won't say "work" because King is always humble about his writing and doesn't give himself airs calling it his "work" - like he's an artist or something. He once said, "I write crap; I try to write good crap but I write crap." or something like that - maybe he called it garbage - I forget.)

Margo wrote: "Nathan wrote: "Chapter 35 - Larry is getting to be my favorite character. He struggles so much against the weak parts of with nature. As everything in the world falls apart, he begins to build hims..."

I think King put a lot of himself into Larry. He is a great character.

When I was 16 and I read The Stand and The Shining for the first time I didn't realize what it is like to be an older person and have the voices of people you've hurt haunting you. King did a good job with this and later when I read that King was an alcoholic who hurt his daughters, it all made sense.

Now it is almost thirty years since I read those books and I know what it's like to have those voices I didn't have when I was 16 and I love King's characters and their author all the more.

Hythlodaeus -- I appreciate your comments. Gives me a bit more to think about as I try to finish this book before the year end. Thanks for your insights.

I am nearly finished. I was having a hard time keeping my interest in the middle of the book, but the last half is a page turner.

I will get this one finished in the next couple of days. Just in time for our next Long Read.

I finished this a couple of weeks ago, and I thought it was great. I have read a lot of Stephen King novels and this is one of my favorites. A classic good vs. evil scenario, I noticed a lot of references to the Bible. Mother Abigail appearing to people in their dreams is similar to angels appearing to some in the Bible, most notably Mary to inform her of the impending birth of Jesus. Also, mother Abigail's foray into the wilderness parallels Jesus' own pilgrimage, although they were for different reasons. And Flagg readily admits that he is really the demon known as Legion (we are many), who was specifically mentioned in the Bible. Whether you believe in the book or not, the Bible is full of supernatural stories, so I consider King's version far more mild in that respect. I don't know if King intended that correlation, but that is the impression I got from reading this.
Another point that stuck out to me was the statement that technology was the great equalizer for women. I don't know if King thought of that himself or if he got it from someone else, but as I thought about it I believe it to be true. Their are exceptions of course, but generally women's slighter physical stature was a liability for women in an age where the strong dominated over the weak. With the advent of technology, intellect became more dominant and women had an equal, if not superior (according to my wife), advantage with men.
And the deadly bug being produced by the government for possible biological warfare is totally believable. This book was written shortly after the Vietnam debacle and Watergate, so trust in the government was already under attack.
The book was a little wordy (my version was 1320 pages) and seemed to drag at times, but that seems to be Kings style. He introduces things slowly (sometimes too slowly), lets the reader get to know his characters, and then builds to his climax. I give it five stars overall, mainly because I found the story so intriguing.

Great comments and thoughts. Thanks Niles. I found that I am still thinking of different things in this book.

I posted a review with lots of bonus info about this book, including comparisons of the 1978 and 1989 editions.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I was underwhelmed by The Stand, but I loved Parable of the Sower. Here's my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...