The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the weeks of October 5th - October 11th, we are reading BOOK ONE: 1945 -Section Two - Journeys Into Uneasy Distances - Chapter Five (pg 189-pg 197) - Chapter Six (pg. 197-223 ~ A Division of the Spoils -Book IV,(pg. 189-223).

The sixth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK SIX- October 5th ~ PART ONE: Section Two ~ Journeys Into Uneasy Distances (pg. 189-223)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on August 31st.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on October 5th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Jill will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Bentley.

Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Paul Scott

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how to cite books:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...


Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

by Paul Scott

Chapter Overview and Summary

Rowan visits the Governor to learn that he is to visit Mohammed Kasim to extend an invitation. The Governor wants to meet with Kasim to discuss the direction in which the elections will go when independence comes.....will the Muslim League prevail or will the Congress return as before? The Governor sees the problems that present themselves between the Hindus and the Muslims and is trying to prepare some common ground.

They speak of Colonel Layton who wishes to visit one of his men who had gone over and fought with the INA and that possibly Merrick is pulling strings in that situation since he is interviewing the INA prisoners.

When Rowan and his traveling companion Ghopal, reach the train they find that Merrick will also be sharing the special coach with them.

I had convinced myself that Kasim was pretty much out of the political picture since he had been imprisoned for a while but it appears that may not be the case. I think the Governor is being rather ingenuous if he thinks that Kasim can be of much help regarding the formation of some type of government for India since the Muslim League is very powerful. What do you think will be the upshot of the Kasim visit or is it just another meaningless activity of the British who just want to get out of India with the least trouble?

I am attempting to get an overview of the withdrawal of Britain from India based on some of the actions of the characters in this week's read.......Churchill, the ultimate Imperialist, and his government, is out of office, most countries in Europe are reeling on the brink of extinction.....is Britain without the leadership of an Imperialist government, just wanting to get rid of India which is one more problem that has to be faced in the post war world?

I am not sure based upon the book only - but I think Churchill was forced to give up the fight and accept the outcome - as horrendous as this was for Churchill - he did not come out looking good on this one but his predictions of how it would end were fairly spot on in terms of the bloodshed, etc.

It seems to me the title of the quartet could well be: The Decline and Fall of the Raj.

The trajectory of the narrative, a reflection of the actual historical events, is the death rattle of the Raj, but simultaneously the creation (arguably) of the most important nation to emerge from the post colonial era. Prior to India's independence, there was no India; and look at what she has become.

The discussion that Rowan and Perron have in their train compartment finally puts some "meat on the bone" about Merrick and his attitudes.....a hollow man who aspires to the upper classes and behaves in the way he thinks the upper class behaves. He thinks anyone who he thinks has abandoned the principles of British superiority is beneath contempt. And of course, there is Hari Kumar, who is the center of Merrick's hatred. I get the distinct feeling that there is more to that animosity than the "rape" situation and it may be revealed later....or not. Just picking up clues from earlier chapters that suggest something about Merrick that has not come to the forefront as yet.

Martin wrote: "It seems to me the title of the quartet could well be: The Decline and Fall of the Raj.

The trajectory of the narrative, a reflection of the actual historical events, is the death rattle of the Ra...”

True Martin but much of the bloodshed of its own people could have easily been avoided and because some wanted power and control - they ended up uprooting their population and sending them to live in a new country split off from the old one. Totally unnecessary and the hatred and animosity needed not to have been fueled and inflamed as it was. India has gone through a lot and has emerged as a political power of course but the trajectory could have been smoother and more genteel.

Jill wrote: “The discussion that Rowan and Perron have in their train compartment finally puts some "meat on the bone" about Merrick and his attitudes.....a hollow man who aspires to the upper classes and behav..."


We will have to read on.

True Martin but much of the bloodshed of its own people could have easily been avoided and because

I think that the bloodshed was inevitable, Bentley. As we see now in the Middle East, the religions and sects within those religions are intent on gaining power either by genocide or removing people from their traditional homes. I don't think it was much different in the time frame of the book. Without the British to keep some type of control, it was bound to happen as most internal fights for control are done in the name of religion.

True in part Jill but I think much of what occurred in India could have been avoided.

I think that Perron's use of Emerson's "life is a wave" is appropriate here as it illustrates that life moves on and some people don't move with it. He feels that Merrick will be one of the people who drown in that wave of life, as did Purvis.
Are the British in general moving with the wave and in doing so, are they abandoning India to its own devices which will result in turmoil?

I see it as the British “escaping” the turmoil and chaos that they tried to help the country avoid but it refused to do. It appears to me like a pilot ejecting himself out of a plane going down. Things are going to get real bad before they get good or improve. Better to throw off the shackles of the past and move on quickly.

I see it as the British “escaping” the turmoil and chaos that they tried to help the country avoid but it refused to do.

With all due respect, I couldn't disagree more. In the first volume, the regional administrator White makes a compelling case that by overstaying the Brits are accountable for the partition, and for the violence associated with it.

And, the text of Scott's narrative supports that insight.

Partition does not become the foregone conclusion until Kassim is released from incarceration. The landscape by that point has shifted, as we've noted in this discussion.

In their eyes (blind as they are), Brits vested in the Raj's authority may have seen themselves as trying to avoid the turmoil, but they were leading from behind events, it seems.

Cause and effect are at play here. Not to see the effect of overstaying is to misunderstand the cause. White and other characters recognize that the die has been cast.

The die has been cast but the Brits know it is a foregone conclusion that a civil war will erupt with a lot of avoidable bloodshed.

I think at the end the British tried their best and I think the Indians and Nehru realized it and they parted and both knew what was about to happen and it did. At that point in time - it was inevitable. The score like a piece of music was going to be played to the bitter end.

I do think that the British could have done more sooner but did not but it takes time to change course and they just did not adjust the sails soon enough to make any difference whatsoever and I think they realized it and got out as best they could.

Was it perfect or neat or without flaws - absolutely not.

No transition of power, especially of that size, would be bloodless or without flaws. Imperialism was doomed and the British knew it. The new government in Britain saw the writing on the wall and got out and left the Indians to figure it out. The "British Empire" had become an anachronism, especially after WWII.

Historically speaking, it's also of interest that other holdings in the Empire were tearing themselves away from that little island in the North Sea - Israel/Palestine in the Middle East being a case in point.