Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

Greetings all!

This month we'll be discussing Paul Beatty's biting satire, The Sellout. Has anyone read it or planning on reading it? Has anyone read Paul Beatty before?

We don't have a lead for this month so we'll have to group-moderate unless someone would like to take over. Same applies for the rest of the year since it appears this is a busy period for most. If you'd like to lead a discussion, please send me a message and I'll get back with you promptly.

Here's a proposed discussion schedule for The Sellout. Please let me know if this works for you (or not) and we can alter it accordingly.

Oct 1-4 gen'l conversation about author, previous work, book jacket etc...
Oct 5-13 prologue thru The Dum Dum Donut Intellectuals
Oct 14-23 Exact Change, or Zen and the Art..... thru Too Many Mexicans
Oct 24 Starting with Apples and Oranges and open for the entire book

Let's begin!

I'm about 75 percent through the book. I'm not really feeling the lead for it . I've yet to sort out my feelings about it. Its quite California centric and I would hate to come off too East Coast biased in the role.
I did read Slumberland and enjoyed it. It was nothing like I had expected, very intelligent and erudite. I actually wrote the longest and most thoughtful review ever for that book and was so devastated when I somehow deleted the entire thing before it was posted that I swore off writing reviews for a good while after.

This book though, I dunno...satire ain't easy.

Total lover of the Sellout here, which I've read to the end. It was my first novel by Paul Beatty.

To me it The Sellout is more like the Platonic ideal of comedy improv than it is like a novel. Those looking for an actual story, rather than an extreme comedic riff that takes things to the absolute edge of Funny (and possibly right over the cliff, after that) are likely to be irked by this book.

I'd almost suggest to people just starting out that you go in imagining Paul Beatty doing stand up comedy improv as you read along, rather than judging the book by typical novel standards.

I will be lurking for this discussion as I read this book a couple of months ago.

I really enjoyed this book.
It will probably end up as one of my top read for 2015. (I think this has been a very good year for 2015 releases)

I have read Paul Beatty before but this is my fav of his.

William wrote: "I'm about 75 percent through the book. I'm not really feeling the lead for it . I've yet to sort out my feelings about it. Its quite California centric and I would hate to come off too East Coast b..."

William, just curious, how would your East Coast bias or the influence come off differently from this? It's so funny you should mention this though it reminds me of how East Coast jazz performers particularly those around Dizzy's Be-Bop era kind of frowned on the West Coast cool of like Gerry Mulligan, Stan Getz and Chet Baker (all who I love by the way). By the way, would Paul Mooney be considered a satirist? I'm trying to think of satirist of color in the literary field but not too many come to mind. In other fields there's the guy from the Boondocks and then what's his name that had the cable tv show, the tall thin guy. Help me out...

I've been to CA more times than I can count. And the old saw about a nice place to visit but I wouldn't...holds true for me. Its a definite different culture..not judging good or bad just what you're used to I guess. Percival Everett, another LA guy BTW, is a pretty good satirist. And Delicious Foods was certainly satirical but with a stronger story arc than the sellout. Perhaps your referring to Aaron Mcgruder and dave chapelle?

only 20 pages into it. I'd say Poingu's remarks hit the spot on how to approach this. it did seem very much like some sort of stand-up routine.

Sarah Silverman has gushed about his latest book, The Sellout, saying he ‘uses humor like a surgeon uses anesthesia’."

Here's a Bio, Reviews, Interviews and a Video on our featured author and book this month, Paul Beatty and The Sellout:

New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/12/boo...

Rolling Stone
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/f...

LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketco...

Politics and Prose Bookstore & Coffeehouse
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sK6bj-h...

The Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015...

Bio
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_...

William wrote: "I've been to CA more times than I can count. And the old saw about a nice place to visit but I wouldn't...holds true for me. Its a definite different culture..not judging good or bad just what you'..."

Chapelle, yes. I couldn't think of his name. Percival Everett is another good one. He has a new short story collection I'm looking forward to reading. I think his Sidney Poitier titled book was in the satirical realm. Didn't hear much good or bad on that one.

Ok, here's a good q&a from The Paris Review that I missed that poses some questions about satire, race, the responsibility (or not) of Afri-Amer writers to write about race or white writers neglecting the subject entirely. Any thoughts?

http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/20...

It's a very clever book for sure but I just wasn't into the style. I kept waiting for *the story* and only halfway through I realized that wasn't going to happen at which point I did start to enjoy it more. I do wish I had absorbed it as stand-up comedy like Poingu suggests especially since I listened to it on audio.I think I would have enjoyed it more right from the get-go.

Being discussed:

Oct 5-13 Prologue thru The Dum Dum Donut Intellectuals>/I>

One of my most memorable delightful moments in my history is a reader was the narrator's confrontation with Clarence Thomas:

There he is, Chamaeleo africanus tokens, hidden way in the back among all the shrubbery, his slimy feet gripped tightly around the judicial branch in a cool torpor, silently gnawing on the leaves of injustice.

The entire passage so audacious and unique that I will forgive any amount of meandering and non-storytelling in the rest of this novel.

Do prologues go better with satire? Its the second book of satire read by the group that started out this way. Which do you think used the device more successfully? This one or Delicious Foods? I must admit I was a bit intrigued and anxious to find out how he ended up before the Supreme Court.

I like it so far...... I'm just about to start Dum Dum Donut Intellectuals and then I'll be back to discuss when I finish that part.

I think the idea of reading this one like stand up comedy is a good one. My favorite line so far is "I met interesting people and tried to convince them that no matter how much heroin and R. Kelly they had in their systems, they absolutely could not fly." (p 58) The song is still in my head and the reason it struck me was because I helped a student prepare that song for a talent show "back in the day". I'm sure I'm missing some of the humor because I don't have the personal experience to "get it" all of the time. Even though there isn't an in depth plot, I am certainly interested in how the journey to the Supreme Court evolves and I thought the prologue was effective. I don't know if I can choose one over the other between this one and Delicious Foods. They were both engaging in their own way and both take a while to become clear to the reader.

He's throwing so much at folks, I doubt anyone gets all of it. but I'm waiting to see how he gets to meet the Supremes as well.

George wrote: "He's throwing so much at folks, I doubt anyone gets all of it. but I'm waiting to see how he gets to meet the Supremes as well."

Agreed. I have to be missing some, but the book is pretty funny so far. It's not like anything else I've ever read.

I find it pretty funny as well. so, in spite of the fact I don't know where it's going, I'm willing to go along for the ride.

Poingu wrote: "One of my most memorable delightful moments in my history is a reader was the narrator's confrontation with Clarence Thomas:

There he is, Chamaeleo africanus tokens, hidden way in the back among ..."

I too enjoyed the Clarence Thomas confrontation. It was when I decided to sit back and settle into this novel and let it go where it was going to take me.

William wrote: "Do prologues go better with satire? Its the second book of satire read by the group that started out this way. Which do you think used the device more successfully? This one or Delicious Foods? I m..."

Thinking back between the two books mentioned I would say that The Sellout used the prologue better to introduce the reader to the satirical elements of the story.

As it has been mentioned writing satire is hard.
But I also think that the author and reader need to be on the same "wavelength" on the subject matter for the satire to work for the reader/be appreciated by reader.

Another book that the group read that I also thought used satire was Loving Day

Beverly wrote: "William wrote: "Do prologues go better with satire? Its the second book of satire read by the group that started out this way. Which do you think used the device more successfully? This one or Deli..."

I like your comment that the reader and author need to be on the same wavelength. Beatty lost a load of points with me when he said "Gangsta rap made the late 20th century bearable".
Imho..gangsta rap is what killed the conscience raising and lyrical roots of hiphop and turned it into the vulgar misogynistic vehicle it mostly is today.
Admittedly the book is very funny..but at times I felt uncomfortable. Beatty uses the little rascals characters for many of his jokes. But anyone who has read the biographies of the actor who played the slow talking, bug eyed Stepin Fetchit Know his story was actually that of a pioneer and quite heroic. So much so that he became quite close with Muhammad Ali and was always in his corner at his most important fights.

He reminds me of Chris Rock who I feel at times makes his comedy (undeservedly) at the expense of other Black folk.
And I'm sure the prominent review of the novel on the back cover by Sarah Silverman, who was in her own racial tempest of some racist comments and use of the N word, was no accident.

i couldn't help it - i read this in one sitting - it is hilarious. The idea of approaching it as a stand-up routine is brilliant; i was being bothered by finding the plot to be silly and erratic.

Hominy is a riot; the absurdities of his needs so unprecedented. A wonderful barrage of visual moments: a human lawn jockey, the trips to "sticks and stones" paid for by our protagonist, even the overt awfulness of the Lil Rascals' plots balanced with our current politically correct racism, running just as deep, vicious and wide, but much better coiffed. i also thoroughly enjoy the Dum Dum Intellectuals. The riff on "plethora" reminded me of the Umuofia clan meetings in Achebe's "No Longer at Ease" as another teetering moment between two worlds, two awkwardly superimposed social groups; one trying to substitute the imagined language of the other in place of authentic communication.

i adore the protagonist - so gentle, tolerant, funny - all preserved despite an awful parent who, for his own part, thought what he was doing was preparing his son for the world, preparing his son to be a warrior. i found myself thinking about T. Coates' book, fathers and sons, the tenuous state of the "black body" and the symbolism of the delicious fruits our protagonist grew and nourished folk(s) with.

The book is open for discussion thru section titled Too Many Mexicans ending Oct 23rd.

I ended up finishing the whole book as well. I loved the concept of reading it like stand up comedy, so thank you for that, Poingu. I'll be back with more thoughts as others finish the book, but I definitely enjoyed it and yet my thinking was still challenged often as well.

I am planning to read this, but I am still at 16 in the library queue.

No spoilers as of today. The entire book open for discussion? Did you enjoy it? Recommend it? Would you read more of the authors future or past work?

I asked the question in my review, can satire be cowardly? I like to laugh as much as the next person, but when all the jokes are on me and you do the soft shoe on other folks I become a little disturbed. Ishmael Reed, the master of satire, once said of Paul Beatty, that he writes like he is concerned with alienating white consumers. I don't think all of Beatty's novels fall into this category, but this one certainly did. I will approach his next work with caution.

Andre wrote: "I asked the question in my review, can satire be cowardly? I like to laugh as much as the next person, but when all the jokes are on me and you do the soft shoe on other folks I become a little dis..."

Andre, thank you so much for this comment and for your marvelous, thoughtful review. I have a lot of thoughts about how to respond as a reader when authors of color create ugly, stereotypical characters of color in their fiction, or when they write with what seems to be extreme self deprecation. If a reader reads these straight, rather than as an ironic and/or tragic commentary on racism, then these passages can feel full of self-hatred and can be really disturbing. I also agree with the comment you made in your review that Beatty back-pedals his sharp jabs when they are aimed at people other than African Americans.

I read this book for another book club. We are committed to reading the suggested books or I would not have finished this book. I am not a big fan of satire. It was funny at times but I thought it silly in places. It is spoofing very serious issues in our community, like being killed by police who will not be held accountable. I am not ready to laugh at Me dragging his father's body through the street. Maybe that is good satire but it was lost on me. There was nothing funny about the torture his father put him through to ready him for manhood in this country. I agree with Diane that it puts you in mind of Coates' book on fathers and sons. Who are the dum dum intellectuals he is spoofing?? Is it us as a people who keep trying to address the racism in this country in all kinds of ways a lot of which have not been effective?? One idea that he raised that I could appreciate was how badly black people are depicted in some "classics" and other literature not written for us. In spite of not enjoying the book much, I think it was thoughtful and well written and he had some great one-liners. I probably took the book too seriously but I would not recommend the book.

Ernestine wrote: "I read this book for another book club. We are committed to reading the suggested books or I would not have finished this book. I am not a big fan of satire. It was funny at times but I thought it ..."

The question I have at times is if it's ok for an author of color to write something outrageous or offensive, because everyone should just know instinctively that it is meant satirically; or if outrageous = outrageous no matter who writes it.

Does the same sentence mean something semantically different depending on the author's identity? Most of the time I read authors of color believing "yes, the meaning is different depending on the author's identity," but now and again I revisit the question, especially when what I've just read seems to push boundaries in extreme ways. I didn't react as strongly as you did to the problematic passages in The Sellout but I have with other novels, where the events seem to uphold stereotypes, rather than to hold stereotypes up for criticism.

I think writing satire is one of the hardest literary devices to write and especially when putting several different issues on the forefront.

For me the best satire is to make ideas/assumptions that we often hold look to be absurd so the reader can ponder for a minute or two on their thoughts.

I also like satire that pushes me out of my comfort zone - not that I might change my mind but maybe see another side of things. When I was younger issues were usually clear cut for me - things were black or white, no middle ground. But as I get older I see there is a lot of degrees of grayness in the middle. Not sure that is necessarily a good thing but it is what it is.

One of the scenes in the book that stood out for me is when the news spreads that the segregated school was doing so well and the whites were upset that they could not attend the school.

What's your overall thoughts on this book? Was the concept of the book as a character performing a sort of stand up comedy improv as Poingu pointed out appealing to you? Is this a book you would recommend to others and who?

Thanks to all who participated and for those who were unable to you still have an opportunity to because the thread is forever open.

Now on to November and Toni Morrison...

I thought it was an interesting book. I'm glad enough to have read it, but I'd hestitate to recommend it to anyone I didn't know well enough to predict they'd also like it.

George wrote: "I thought it was an interesting book. I'm glad enough to have read it, but I'd hestitate to recommend it to anyone I didn't know well enough to predict they'd also like it."

Thanks, George. Have you read anything else by him?

no, that was our first time out together.

I'm glad I read it.

Also, I'm thoughtful these days about how many African American male authors feel comfortable with satire (offhand, authors I've read this year: Paul Beatty, Colson Whitehead, James McBride, Mat Johnson, Ralph Ellison, Charles Chesnutt, George S. Schuyler) and how few African American women are writing satire. I went out of my way to look for women's satire and found the magnificent Oreo by Fran Ross, published and quickly forgotten in 1974, and Getting Mother's Body by Suzan-Lori Parks, and that was about it.

I find myself wondering if this is just coincidence? Or is it because of the towering influence of Toni Morrison on other African American female authors? Some other reason? Are black men writing fiction finding it easier to get published if they disarm their message with humor, maybe?

Poingu wrote: "I'm glad I read it.

Also, I'm thoughtful these days about how many African American male authors feel comfortable with satire (offhand, authors I've read this year: Paul Beatty, Colson Whitehead,..."

I read Getting Mother's Body when it was first released and would not have associated that book as being satirical in nature. It seemed rather straightforward to me. But, then it's been awhile ago and I didn't care for it very much.

She was just awarded the Lillian Gish prize which comes with a prize of $300,000. These financial gifts are no mere chump change anymore.

http://www.americantheatre.org/2015/1...

Poingu wrote: "I'm glad I read it.

Also, I'm thoughtful these days about how many African American male authors feel comfortable with satire (offhand, authors I've read this year: Paul Beatty, Colson Whitehead,..."

Actually, if you have to question whether her book is satire or not that would support your point even more. Not exclusively an author but would Whoopie Goldberg's early stand up pieces be considered satire?

SO LATE to this party. I've just read Randall Kennedy's (nonfiction) Sellout and now am hoping to find this Sellout in the library ASAP.

Kennedy's book is complicated in some ways, readable and not without questions and controversy. He does, if briefly, mention Plum Bun, which we read earlier this year.

Poingu wrote: "I'm glad I read it.

Also, I'm thoughtful these days about how many African American male authors feel comfortable with satire (offhand, authors I've read this year: Paul Beatty, Colson Whitehead,..."

Really great questions. Why do Af-Am male writers write so much satire...why to Af-Am female writers write none? Why have I come to expect the type of book I'll read from a black female author versus a male? Why is Attica Locke, a writer I respected, executive producer for Empire? Hmmmm...

Anyway..I loved Beatty's Slumberland..but for a very odd reason...I am a jazz aficionado..I know more of jazz than most..Slumberland was a story of East Germany and avant garde jazz. The politics of Germany I know nothing but about jazz I can confidently say I know more than most. So when Beatty made inside jokes of the predilections of little known jazz players,(he described Willie Wang in his book as a Vietnam vet cock hound, a cover for violinist Billy Bang who actually in a concert tried to pick up my date) I thought this is real very inside and intelligent baseball).
Beatty is an extremely gifted writer. BUT..he in his characterization of Foy, reminds me of the late night programs I watched of Black militants and progressives. They came on later and later until they came on when the sun rose. Then they disappeared. Now, there is no legacy. There are no late night shows with black panelists debating current or black centric events.

I'm reminded of the time I watched the Miss Black America's pageant at about 3 0r 4 am in the 90's. I laughed so hard I fell off the couch and my sides hurt. But I realized that I was crying too. Beautiful Black women trying to force their beauty into Ms. America standards. Failing miserably. All of Beatty's characters were funny in that they were ultimately so terribly sad.
The protagonist gives us lessons in Ca.'s agrarian past. In the rich history of farmers, actors, professionals, developers and community organizers. Betty made a lot of fun of people but he also pointed out for the uniformed that Ca would not be the what is is today without the contributions of "our gang", Stepin Fetchit, and Buckwheat". Slavery comes in many guises.

I thought that Beatty was very intelligent and comical but that it was basically a west coast version of Soul City, Toure's take down of modern Harlem NY life. Sure it's fun to laugh at Black people. We do some funny shit. But there are no more late night Black talk shows, no more Black Ca. farmers, no more highest paid Black actors or Donut intelligentsia..and that makes the book not so comical but sad.

I just finished this book last night--it has quite the queue at my library. I have not read anything else by Beatty.

I am glad I read this, though generally it made me uncomfortable--including the parts I could completely relate to. But the way his father raised him sort of overshadowed everything for me, and I found that part of the story sad and not funny, even though I know it's meant to be satire. It still overshadowed everything else for me.

The parts I enjoyed the most were his descriptions of LA, because I live here, on the overpriced and perpetually gridlocked west side. Beatty lives in NY, but he must have spent some time here. His descriptions of surfing in Redondo vs Venice vs Malibu, the blue neighborhood signs (p57), his highway sign (p88--someone did something very similar here a few years ago), and the Don streets (p180) all made me laugh out loud. But I don't know if Dickens is actually meant to be a real place, or if it's a state of mind.

Paul Beatty being interviewed by Eleanor Wachtel on CBCs Writers and Company: http://www.cbc.ca/radio/writersandcom...

Man Booker Prize long list includes The Sellout by Paul Beatty. Congrats!

http://www.themillions.com/2016/07/bo...