Victorians! discussion

Our first week's discussion was lively and informative. It is obvious that we are all young in heart and mind.

As we move into our second and final week of enjoying Alice's Adventures in Wonderland I sense a subtle shift in tone. Alice is becoming more assertive and some of the characters in Wonderland are becoming a shade darker and aggressive. Did anyone else notice this?

Again, I will offer a possible topic to discuss for each chapter, but that should not limit anyone from commenting what they want. Enjoy the week. From Canada, where we celebrate Thanksgiving this coming weekend, I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving.

Chapter VII: There seems to be a strong emphasis on time. To what extent does an emphasis on time, which is such a precise measurement, seem to be at odds with the world of Wonderland?

Chapter VIII: "Off with her head!" Has Wonderland moved from a place of pleasure to a more somber and adult environment?

Chapter IX: "Everything has a moral, if you can find it." Traditionally, a children's story in the 19C was didactic and even rather disturbing in nature. AAIW has been to this point in the book one of fun, games, riddles, fantasy and innocence. Does AAIW have a moral? Should it? What is more important to a child, a good tale or a clear message?

Chapter X: The Mock Turtle says to Alice "Come, let's hear some of your adventures." Well, who can turn down an invitation from a Mock Turtle?

Chapter 11: "Alice felt a very curious sensation ..." Alice begins to grow larger again. Alice seems to be always growing and shrinking in the novel, but this time she resumes her proper proportions. IF this chapter is to suggest that Alice is, in some way, beginning to transition from innocence to maturity, or from a sleep state to consciousness, or from her adventure to her reality, to what extent does this chapter become the saddest in the novel?

Chapter XII: "You're nothing but a pack of cards!" Alice has been in court, and here is her judgement. I have avoided referring to the annotations throughout our comments but one I would like to point out for discussion is the final illustration. In it we see Alice surrounded by the animals who are now back to their original natural forms. To the bottom right is a rabbit that is undressed. A comment from an annotated version of the book comments that this symbolizes the return to reality. Perhaps as we have now completed our reading of AAIW we could comment further on the value of the annotations. To what extent did the annotations assist in your reading?

In Chapter VIII we have the card gardeners. Since I want to create my own new annotation, here goes.

In poker (which I do not play) there is a hand called the "Dead Man's Hand." Legend has it that "Wild Bill" Hickok held two aces, the spade and the club, and two 8's, also the spade and the club. The fifth card, of course, is further shrouded in the mists of legend. Holding this hand in cards, he was shot and killed by another gambler.

Could we as Victorian readers create the legend of "Alice's Hand?" It would occur when, in ANY game of cards, you held a 2, 5 and 7 of spades, just like the cards we see in Tenniel's drawing. You would simply say something like "I've got Alice's hand" or ask someone else if they were "holding Alice." Since the Mad Hatter's 10/6 number in his hat has started "Mad Hatter's Day" it's time for us to begin a new trend.... Just wondering ... ;-)

This section got a bit more sophisticated with all the puns. It reminded me of the snappy dialogue of puns from a Marx Brothers' movie. Time is warped, as are all the other perceptions (i.e. animals, disappearing cats, sobbing Mock Turtles, etc.) While reading the story, it makes the reader feel like Alice has been in Wonderland for at least days. Instead we see at the end, it's more like minutes or hours.

Whether children like a story that's a good story or have a moral, I think a good story is key for most kids. Even we as adult readers would enjoy a moral tale without a good yarn less, than a book without a moral but a great story. Or at least I do ;-)

Alice changes size, according to the annotation, 12 times (but that may include Through the Looking Glass as I wasn't keeping count). I think Carroll captures the every changing land of childhood. You physically change sizes, you learn new things, you become stronger, and then the changes that indicate the onset of adulthood. I think he views it as a double edge sword - you can't stop it, but mourns the lost of it.

I love the idea of an Alice hand of cards. Peter, very creative.

I've been reading a lot serious stuff that hasn't been my cup of tea so I've thoroughly enjoyed the nonsense, but then my favorite verse is nonsense verse so I guess I'm in my element ;-)

I'm thinking about the time warp again. Carroll really captures the different perceptions of time - adult = time going quickly, child = time going slowly. It feels like Alice is in wonderland a long time (child's perspective). She awakes to find not long has passed (adult's perspective). It's almost as if he had one foot in each world.

Deborah wrote: "I'm thinking about the time warp again. Carroll really captures the different perceptions of time - adult = time going quickly, child = time going slowly. It feels like Alice is in wonderland a l..."

I like your comments about time in AAIW. Time is a different concept between childhood and adulthood. Alice, as you say, "had one foot in each world." Would it be fair to speculate that Carroll may have wanted to return to the joys of childhood, and we see this desire in his joy of puns, puzzles, games and being comfortable being with children? Reflecting back on your comment I wonder how much Carroll would have loved to step back with one foot into childhood much more than step one more foot forward into full adulthood.

Peter wrote: "Our first week's discussion was lively and informative. It is obvious that we are all young in heart and mind.

As we move into our second and final week of enjoying Alice's Adventures in Wonderlan..."

As to the question of time, this could almost be another example of our adult perceptions corrupting the childish text. Young children for the most part have very little concept of time (as we understand it) let alone care about it. Hence why Wonderland seems to disregard the "adult" rules of time as well. Us trying to attach meaning or symbolism may be us trying to impose our adult restrictions or concept of order on a child's "free" mind. After all, what better symbol of adult order, aka being a grown up, than our servitude to the dictates of the almighty clock!

"Off with her Head!" I know the Queen is supposed to be the symbol of uncontrolled passions, etc. etc. but I saw her more as a Parental figure as a young child in a pique may view them. From a child's perspective a parent constantly repeating something to correct their behavior, especially something the child disagrees with, may sound as ridiculous and irrational as the Queen. Replace "Off with her Head!" with "Go to Bed!"

Annotated: I read the book on its own merits first and later received the Annotated copy from the library. I have to say that I am glad I did not first read the annotated version as I would have found it distracting. Constantly pulling me away from Wonderland back to reality if you will.

Victoria and Deborah

I agree with your observations about how our adult perceptions can corrupt the childish text. The word "corrupt" has strong connotations and denotations, but the more I think about it, the more I see this novel as one that requires its reader to consider the restrictions of reading it as an adult.

I feel very certain that Carroll was not concerned about a readership in the 21C. I also believe that Alice Liddell and her sisters were reasonably aware of some of the fun and puns and references that would have been made to their world in Oxford that wonderous day when Carroll first spun the Wonderland story on that magic July day. After the request that he write the story down for them, the intricate nature of the story we now read would have been born, but the spontaneous creative burst of joy of that oral story would have faded.

The adult concerns over such issues as editing and publishing, the squabbles with Tenniel over the illustrations, the headaches of distribution, American publishing rights and all the other associated griefs with a book being published remove the finished product from the initial inspiration.

AAIW is a glorious book. The more I think about it the more I think it should be enjoyed by reading what is within its covers rather than spending too much time trying to discover or speculate what is under its covers.

Martin Gardner's opinion is that "Children today are bewildered and sometimes frightened by the nightmarish atmosphere of Alice's dreams. It is only because adults--scientists and mathematicians in particular--continue to relish the ALICE books that they are assured of immortality." He says that children today do not get the ALICE books. Also because of all the puns and in-jokes. He thinks (and this was in 1960) that the books no longer reach their original audience. Only adults, with their wider experience and their reading and research into Victorian times, and their analysis of the intricacies of the work, can enjoy these books.

I put the question in the first section. Does anyone have a child audience that can respond to this? Do today's children get this stuff? (Of course there are the movies. That is not the question.)

Ginny wrote: "Martin Gardner's opinion is that "Children today are bewildered and sometimes frightened by the nightmarish atmosphere of Alice's dreams. It is only because adults--scientists and mat..."

I can certainly see Gardner's point and although he made it some decades ago, feel what he says is as true as, if not more so, today. The book certainly appears to be a treasure trove for adult speculation, but for a child's imagination, that I don't know.

I enjoy my annotated copy, and certainly see its benefit for scholars and other interested adults. But for children ... ?

I tried to approach AAIW as a child would. How sad to discover that I cannot read, or even pretend to read, as a child anymore. My one certainty is that whatever was told on that boat so long ago became a great book.

As to your question. I do not have a child/grandchild to act as an audience. My speculation is that for the most part AAIW would not be a favourite book for children to read, or equally as sadly, for a parent to choose for their child in today's world. Oh, how I wish I am wrong.

Ginny wrote: "Martin Gardner's opinion is that "Children today are bewildered and sometimes frightened by the nightmarish atmosphere of Alice's dreams. It is only because adults--scientists and mat..."

After I added AAIW to my 'read' shelf, the first person to like my rating was my 11 year old niece. I'm pretty sure she's more into it than I am. When I get to talk to her next time (in a week or two) I'll ask her about some of the topics we've discussed here. I'm especially interested in how she perceived the reality of the story early on. Did she think it was a dream or something real? In the end we're told it's a dream but maybe for a child that's not so certain from the outset. I'll also ask her why she liked it.

Point of interest: when I was visiting her family last winter I stumbled upon a story she wrote about the adventures of our extended family. In it each of us were portrayed as a certain fantastical character. Specifically, Uncle Jacob was the Cheshire Cat. After reading AAIW I'm please at her characterization since the cat's my favorite character.

Ginny wrote: "Martin Gardner's opinion is that "Children today are bewildered and sometimes frightened by the nightmarish atmosphere of Alice's dreams. It is only because adults--scientists and mat..."

I think children definitely enjoy Alice, at it's centre is a bored young girl going on an amazing adventure with fantastical creatures, don't children always daydream of escaping the adult world of rules and discovering somewhere of pure imagination?

Clari wrote: "Ginny wrote: "Martin Gardner's opinion is that "Children today are bewildered and sometimes frightened by the nightmarish atmosphere of Alice's dreams. It is only because adults--scie..."

My sister is 10 years younger. When she was little, she walked into the woods between our house and a neighbor looking for a mystery. She came home disappointed because she felt she had gone a long way and didn't find anything. I think Clari is coect.

I also agree with Clari. I think all the nonsense and unexpected events will still appeal to children - playing croquet with flamingos, the Cheshire Cat appearing and disappearing, the tea party... It's fun. I don't think times have changed so much that AAIW has lost its appeal to children. I loved (still do) Anne of Green Gables when I was a child, and I am Danish and arguably my world was quite different from Anne's Prince Edward Island.

What did everyone think of the ending? I found it quite interesting that Carroll closed it with Alice's sister rather than Alice herself. If Alice is balancing between childhood and adulthood, then her sister must have taken at least a small step into adulthood, but Alice's dream makes her long for childhood - she tries to recreate the world and dream herself into it. Alice may be balancing, but I'd say she is still mostly a child, carefree and happy. I bet she ran home to give Dinah a hug.

Nina wrote: "What did everyone think of the ending? I found it quite interesting that Carroll closed it with Alice's sister rather than Alice herself. ......"

I think the ending with the her sister sort of deconstructing the dream would bring a young reader safely back home. All the scary noises were just the farm noises. The Mock Turtle's sobs are really just the lowing of the cattle in the distance. Of course, Mock Turtle soup was apparently made with a calf's head (?) so the reality is almost scarier than the dream.

Hi, guys!

Well, I have to admit I feel older than my age (I am 28 years old).

I don't like much fantasy stories, maybe because I grew up in a place with some difficulties and was obligated to face reality too soon in life.

But I did like the final quote of the book:

"Lastly, she pictured to herself how this same little sister of hers would, in the after-time, be herself a grown woman; and how she would keep, through all her riper years, the simple and loving heart of her childhood: and how she would gather about her other little children, and make their eyes bright and eager with many a strange tale, perhaps even with the dream of Wonderland of long ago: and how she would feel with all their simple sorrows, and find a pleasure in all their simple joys, remembering her own child-life, and the happy summer days."

I hope I can teach my children to love a little fantasy even though I don't. I want them to grow up in the right time, no rush in it.

Rose wrote: "Hi, guys!

Well, I have to admit I feel older than my age (I am 28 years old).

I don't like much fantasy stories, maybe because I grew up in a place with some difficulties and was obligated to fac..."


Rose

These are wonderful words "... and find a pleasure in all their simple joys, remembering her own child-life, and the happy summer days." It speaks, to me at least, of an ultimately uncomplicated world.

It will be interesting to see how Carroll portrays Alice in our reading of Through the Looking Glass. Please join us.

One of the things I've noticed with my children's reading (they are now 12, 16 and 18) in contrast with my own reading as a child/teenager is that I think that I read "children's" books until a much later age than my children did. For example, books like AAIW, The Wind in the Willows, The Railway Children or even The House at Pooh Corner require a relatively sophisticated reading level-more challenging vocabulary, long descriptive passages and relatively complex sentence structures-and so I read them when I was somewhere in the ballpark of 9-12 years old. Yet children today at that age, while their reading level may be similar, already think the subject matter too young for them-they are often interested in teenager/young adult fare.

So I wonder if something like AAIW is getting lost because by the time many children are able to read and understand and enjoy it's complex structure and it's wordplay they feel it is "too young" for them?

Frances wrote: "So I wonder if something like AAIW is getting lost because by the time many children are able to read and understand and enjoy it's complex structure and it's wordplay they feel it is "too young" for them? ..."

I suspect your insight is on target, Frances. These are almost books that need parents reading to children. (I personally never warmed to them as a young person. By the time I could have read them, I was reading more general stories. Only as an adult have I come to appreciate them -- I remember being at a wilderness camp in college and one of the counselors was sitting by the fireplace in the lodge reading Winnie the Pooh to whomever would listen.)

Lily wrote: "Frances wrote: "So I wonder if something like AAIW is getting lost because by the time many children are able to read and understand and enjoy it's complex structure and it's wordplay they feel it ..."

I agree -- these books are too difficult for the age group, which would most appreciate Alice's "Adventures." But I think they may have been intended as "family" entertainment--for adults to read to children when it was common practice in families, when television didn't exist. I expect their popularity had something to do with the fact that the story, because of it's sophisticated language, is as entertaining for adults (maybe more so) than it is for children.

Tracy wrote: "Lily wrote: "Frances wrote: "So I wonder if something like AAIW is getting lost because by the time many children are able to read and understand and enjoy it's complex structure and it's wordplay ..."
I’m sorry I have not been very participative recently. The truth is, there was a wedding here (my sister’s) and my family and I were full-handed. That is past now so…
All I can say about chapters 7-12 of “AAIW” is that they were as good as the first part, maybe even funnier. Really I enjoyed this group reading very much. In fact, the first week I was looking forward to Thursday when I was allowed to pick up my copy of “AAIW”.
Actually, I think Tracy is right, maybe it is hard to appreciate this reading as a child. In my case, I read this book first several years ago but honestly I had forgotten the ending so then, I was surprised by it this time and I enjoyed it very much. The sister’s reflection was kind of touching and fairly relatable to me, for I too am an adult now. I tried to remember what my vision of Alice’s adventures was back then when I read this book as a child and I am glad to see that even though, they were different experiences this re-reading has been a richer one and in no way less enjoyable.