SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

Hello there all you beautiful book lovers! I'm seeking recommendations for fantasy books about people discovering they have magical/supernatural powers. I'm specifically interested in high fantasy (set entirely in another world) or what some might consider "quasi-high fantasy" (world-within-a-world, or world entered through a portal). And these are the general themes I'm flexibly aiming for:

*Good versus evil. While I sometimes enjoy stories such as The Game of Thrones series where almost everyone is somewhat good and somewhat evil, I prefer books where there's a main character and s/he is at least trying to be good or has been somewhat unwillingly thrust into the role of heroic service. I grow weary of stories about bad people doing bad things to other bad people.
*Heroic. I do enjoy the coming-of-age from humble origins to face challenges and save the day theme.
*Saga/series. Sometimes a stand-alone book can be satisfying, but if it's good I usually want to keep reading!

YA is fine as long as it's reasonably well-written. Romance elements are a plus but not necessary. I must admit I'm not really a huge fan of urban fantasy, dark fantasy, or contemporary fantasy - with some notable exceptions.

Here are examples of books I've enjoyed kinda along these lines:

The Riddle-Master series (e.g., The Riddle-Master of Hed) - Patricia A. McKillip
The Riftwar Saga (e.g., Magician: Apprentice) - Raymond E. Feist
The Earthsea Trilogy (e.g., A Wizard of Earthsea) - Ursula K. Le Guin
The Arthurian Saga (e.g. The Crystal Cave) - Mary Stewart
Harry Potter series (e.g., Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone) - J.K. Rowling
The Belgariad (e.g., Pawn of Prophecy) - David Eddings
The Original Shannara Trilogy (e.g., The Sword of Shannara) - Terry Brooks
Valdemar: Last Herald-Mage series (e.g., Magic's Pawn) - Mercedes Lackey

As you can see, a lot of these are fairly old school fantasy, but I'd be interested in breaking out of this mold if I can find other books with the general elements I'm seeking. A couple that I've at least partly read that I didn't enjoy quite as much include Eragon (sorry, I didn't think it was really all that well written) and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (I just didn't find the main character to be likable or sympathetic).

Thanks in advance for your advise!

GREY MANE OF MORNING by Joy Chant, for sure. Have you tried CURSE OF CHALION by Lois Bujold, or the Bartimaeus books by Jonathan Stroud?

These are all YA, but they fit your criteria.
Eragon no romance until the end of the series
Red Queen series still being written
City of Bones the first book is the worst book in the series; after that they get progressively better
The Lightning Thief, The Red Pyramid, and The Sword of Summer all have a modern setting, but a heavy mythological element to the world.

Adult book
Wizard's First Rule darker world like Game of Thrones, but good prevails

Furies series by Jim ButcherFuries of Calderon(complete) - First book is the weakest of the series and it's still pretty darn good.

MistbornThe Final Empire(complete) - First book is like Oceans 11 + overthrow the evil empire.

Translated Webnovel Mushoku Tensei(complete) 無職転生 ～異世界行ったら本気だす～ 1 - Very competent reveal of the world keeps the plot moving, along with good twists. Main character starts off unlikable(it's intentional, also it's no where near as bad as Thomas Covenant), but has like actual development into a really likable character. Warning Japan tropes are in this series.

Melanie wrote: "Eragon no romance until the end of the series"

OP specifically mentioned they didn't like this series.

I am sure you have heard of it, but The Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan meets all of your standards. Although I haven't finished it yet (there are fourteen in the series and I am on the fifth), I can assure you that this is a commitment you're looking for. :)

Interesting question. This is such a common trope (usually wrapped up with being the Chosen One) that I have a hard time actually thinking of specific instances that haven't already been mentioned.

Portal Fantasies usually do this a lot.

Hmm, maybe Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Similarly, the Sookie Stackhouse series has characters like this. Neither of which are either Portal or Epic Fantasy, but it does fit most of the criteria. Danny Torrance in The Shining comes to mind.

I'm leaning toward David Eddings books. They have a fantasy arc to it along with magic, of a sort, I think. Especially his Belgarad series.

I just devoured The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, by Brandon Sanderson. Love the first book a ton; the second was almost as good, though some of the stuff at the end came out of nowhere. But it's been a long time since I've enjoyed an epic fantasy as much as I did these two books.

I'm not sure if this 100% fits but The Book of Lost Things by John Connolly, not so much the magic abilities but the character does get transported into another world

How about The Emperor's Blades and The Providence of Fire? These are really good high fantasy books!

MadProfessah wrote: "How about The Emperor's Blades and The Providence of Fire? These are really good high fantasy books!"

I second this. The second book is better than the first, so it's definitely improving. Plus, it has portals.

You also might want to check out The Name of the Wind and its sequel The Wise Man's Fear. Good coming of age series with magic involved. The second book IMO is also better than the first one.

One more, the Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb. Very well written coming on age story with likeable main character(s) with magical powers. Dragons too.

Ursula Le Guin, Powers
Josepha Sherman, King's Son, Magic's Son
Pamela E. Service, Winter of Magic's Return, Tomorrow's Magic (2-book series)
Elizabeth Willey, The Well-Favored Man --The other books in this series are subpar. I don't recommend them.
Catherine Fisher, Incarceron, Sapphique (2-book series)
Patricia A. McKillip, The Changeling Sea
Ingrid Law, Savvy -- The sequel, Scumble, is subpar. I haven't read the newly released third book, Switch. Not set in a fantasy world, but a surreal version of our world.
Rachel Hartman, Serafina
Diana Wynne Jones, Charmed Life, Pinhoe Egg; also The Game--for the younger side of YA readers
T.H. White, The Once and Future King -- a classic; it didn't appear on your list, so I put it here.
R.A. MacAvoy, The Grey Horse -- Hero is already magical.

Heroic books, although the protagonist may not have magical powers
Peter Dickinson, The Blue Hawk
Patricia Briggs, Dragon Bones -- The sequel, Dragon Blood, is poorly written. I don't recommend it.
Pauline J. Alama, The Eye of Night

Year of the Unicorn by Andre Norton
Magyk by Angie Sage and the rest of the series
The High House and The False House by James Stoddard
Mairelon the Magician by Patricia C. Wrede

I second Wizards First Rule. It fits the description of what your looking for quite well. It's a very long series too which is a bonus if you like it. I'm currently on the fifth book.

If you are fine with YA then Christopher Paolinis Inheritance cycle is pretty good

Jack wrote: "If you are fine with YA then Christopher Paolinis Inheritance cycle is pretty good"

Joshua wrote: "A couple that I've at least partly read that I didn't enjoy quite as much include Eragon (sorry, I didn't think it was really all that well written) and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (I just didn't find the main character to be likable or sympathetic)."

Please read the OP, or the thread as I already brought this up.

How about something a little left-field. I particularly like the series by Rick Cook Wizard's Bane, The Wizardry Compiled, The Wizardry Cursed, The Wizardry Consulted, and The Wizardry Quested

Stories about a computer geek who gets pulled into a world of magic where he has NO inherent magical ability but discovers that magic can be hacked!

I second the wheel of time series. It is all about good vs evil and discovering magic powers. The first 6 and the last 3 are awesome. Read online summaries of the others.

Joshua wrote: "*Good versus evil. [...] *Heroic. I do enjoy the coming-of-age from humble origins to face challenges and save the day theme.
*Saga/series. Sometimes a stand-alone book can be satisfying, but if it's good I usually want to keep reading!

YA is fine as long as it's reasonably well-written. ..."

I will start by admitting personal interest here - I am going to suggest something written by a friend.
Take a look at Shades of Smoke by Alan Denham & Graham Buckby. It seems to meet your principal criteria - and is almost YA, just a little above that age range.

Your comments would be appreciated.

Lionel wrote: "I will start by admitting personal interest here - I am going to suggest something written by a friend...."
Hey! Thanks mate! Long time no see . . . switch to PM? See you later.

A bit old school but you might look at L. Sprague de Camp's The Incomplete Enchanter stories. About two men who figure out how to travel to mythic or literary worlds of magic.

We are at a phase in the genre where Science Fiction being lumped in with Fantasy and too often horror, even; where a piece like The Maartian floats along with Arthurian Legend, vampires, zombies, and other crap that is lumped in with scufi fantasy. Spare me the sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic clap trap. Fantasy are romance novels, with a supernatural, fey, or magic arts component. It's just like believing in Angels, Crystals, and Ouijia Boards. Some works are like country western music plat paying on modern pop stations -- work okay both sides of the fence. YES, by application of set theory all Science Fiction is fantasy of a sort. Not all, barely any, fantasy is Science Fiction. Witches, fey humans, vampires, zombies, magic wielders, certainly swords and sorcery are worse shit than the usual shit. Read The Sparrow, Or Anciliart Trilogy, trudge through stranger in a strange land, Dune, or Stand on Zanzibar. Then retreat whimpering back to Vamps, black/grey/white magics and othe bull.

Deanna wrote: "I am sure you have heard of it, but The Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan meets all of your standards. Although I haven't finished it yet (there are fourteen in the series and I am on the fifth..."

CRAP. Why not the Gor novels or endless badass fey stories. If there's a concept that "magic is real' then
--entertaining or not--its fucking NOT SciFi and there ought to be a separate group for vamp/werewolf/magic wield ears, Harry potters and other ( nicely constructed) crap

Lionel wrote: "Joshua wrote: "*Good versus evil. [...] *Heroic. I do enjoy the coming-of-age from humble origins to face challenges and save the day theme.
*Saga/series. Sometimes a stand-alone book can be satisf..."

Are we "Young Adults". Pop on the long paints, or lipstick and heels folks. YA 'operates on levels' sure. Both kinds Young and Young Adult. This means 14-18 or so. Divergent, hunger games, potter, fun I guess. YA like Lewis Carrol and the Heinlien Juveniles (that's YA in new speak) are more thought provoking and seminal. Hunger games will go the way of 50 shades and Goosebummps -- forgotten just like Nancy Drew and the hardy boys.

James wrote: "How about something a little left-field. I particularly like the series by Rick Cook Wizard's Bane, The Wizardry Compiled, The Wizardry Cursed, [book:The W..."

Wizards. Oh boy. With oldish words like Bane, cursed, etc. thank goodness it's electrons being squandered more so now than ink and trees

CS wrote: "Ursula Le Guin, Powers
Josepha Sherman, King's Son, Magic's Son
Pamela E. Service, Winter of Magic's Return, Tomorrow's Magic (2-book series)
Elizabeth Willey, The Well-Favored Man --The other book..."

Frank wrote: "We are at a phase in the genre where Science Fiction being lumped in with Fantasy and too often horror, even; where a piece like The Maartian floats along with Arthurian Legend, vampires, zombies, ..."

CS wrote: "Ursula Le Guin, Powers
Josepha Sherman, King's Son, Magic's Son
Pamela E. Service, Winter of Magic's Return, Tomorrow's Magic (2-book series)
Elizabeth Willey, The Well-Favored Man --The other book..."

'IF our understanding of science doesn't change in X hundred years THEN the following is possible...' is no less fantasy than fairies and vampire boyfriends, Frank. Get off your high horse.

Frank wrote: "We are at a phase in the genre where Science Fiction being lumped in with Fantasy and too often horror, even; "

There has never been a time when it has not. All the fantastic genres differ from the mundane ones in having things not in the common experience of the reader.

Ryan wrote: "'IF our understanding of science doesn't change in X hundred years THEN the following is possible...' is no less fantasy than fairies and vampire boyfriends, Frank. Get off your high horse."

Not to mention that this group has "fantasy" in its very title making you wonder why anyone who detests it would hang out here.

OP, I'm gonna recommend the Sidhe trilogy by Kenneth C. Flint, with a caveat.

The story is based on the earliest Celtic myths and is set in a world like our ancient world, or maybe in an alternate version of ancient Earth. In this world, there is both magic and technology.

The main protagonist is a boy named Lugh (not YA, though) who doesn't himself have powers, but learns that he is the one person who can save Eire from an evil race intent on destroying Eire's people.

Now, the caveat: This trilogy is not very well-written. I frequently found myself groaning at Flint's descriptions, dialogue, and grammar (and I am by no means a grammar Nazi).

However, I stuck with it and enjoyed it because the story is very interesting. It's basically Flint imagining what inspired certain Celtic legends, and I found it fascinating.

So, with that in mind, yeah, I'd recommend it.

Frank wrote: "We are at a phase in the genre where Science Fiction being lumped in with Fantasy and too often horror, even; where a piece like The Maartian floats along with Arthurian Legend, vampires, zombies, ..."

If you are shelving based off tropes and story telling mechanics Sci-fi wouldn't be a genre. The Martian would be under Survivalist Thriller, next to a zillion books about surviving some hike though the mountains or river boat ride that went poorly or crashing on an island in the 50s or something.

Sci-fi and fantasy are put together or at least next to each other because many authors write in both genres which makes shelving easier on the staff and finding books simpler. Plus most sci-fi/fantasy fans while they will like one better than the other will enjoy both.

Aaron wrote: "Sci-fi and fantasy are put together or at least next to each other because many authors write in both genres which makes shelving easier on the staff and finding books simpler..."
Potential argument developing here. I have long held to the belief that F & SF were two ends of a spectrum that had very little in the middle - BUT Clarke's Law applies (pace, Frank - and please try for more of a carefully constructed argument, less of a rant, even when I partly agree with you) and there are increasing numbers of books that are difficult to classify so simply.
However - I do agree that the zombies, vampires, and other aspects of horror are less than welcome in the F/SF genre(s); but I am willing to admit that I am speaking from a personal viewpoint. I can tolerate the vampires etc for the sake of exceptionally good writing and/or humour. Otherwise, I avoid them like ... like... like a zombie apocalypse!
Anyone else want to take a stand on this one?

Lionel wrote: "Aaron wrote: "Sci-fi and fantasy are put together or at least next to each other because many authors write in both genres which makes shelving easier on the staff and finding books simpler..."
Pot..."

It's not so much Clarke's law which seems to imply that the farther you get into the future the more fantasy it becomes; I think that is a bit silly myself. The thing is that fantasy and sci-fi both take place in another world. A world that can be optimally crafted for whatever the author wants, and it isn't tied down by having to constrain to the current reality. SF tends to lean more predictive and share our history, and go this is a logical conclusion of where we could be in the future with some assumptions. Fantasy more or less throws all that out the window and just does whatever the heck it likes(or just blandly follows tropes from older series....)

Aaron wrote: "Clarke's law which seems to imply that the farther you get into the future the more fantasy it becomes ..."
We seem to be reaching similar conclusions by different routes - but maybe some of the old differences are breaking down? SF tends to lean more predictive Well, it certainly takes the opportunities to examine how technology may develop, and how society may change as a result - sometimes with quite scary results.
Fantasy more or less throws all that out the window and just does whatever the heck it likes Yes, it often does.
Try looking at this problem as "SF is a serious attempt to predict and/or examine possible consequences, whereas Fantasy is just an amusing or interesting story." Not entirely true, of course but there is an element of truth there, I think. That need for light entertainment used to be met by Space Opera and 'juvenile' stories; now Fantasy (that used to be merely updates on ancient mythologies) meets that need, and SF is (sometimes) becoming more serious.
Yes, I know, I have grossly overstated my case - but have a think. The niches are changing. Any more to add?

Lionel wrote: "Try looking at this problem as "SF is a serious attempt to predict and/or examine possible consequences, whereas Fantasy is just an amusing or interesting story." "

The problem there is that by that standards, ghost stories are SF and interstellar SF with FTL is fantasy. No scientific theory has found ghosts impossible, but the same can not be said about FTL.

Mary wrote: "No scientific theory has found ghosts impossible, but the same can not be said about FTL...."

Interesting point! And sorry to disagree with you, but science tends not to investigate ghosts at all, and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There just isn't enough known, either way round.
FTL, on the other hand does get looked at regularly and seriously. Check alcubiere drive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubie... and take note that NASA are reported to be researching it - seriously!

Huh?

What does your comment about ghosts have to do with the fact that they aren't impossible by scientific standards?

And what does people looking at FTL have to do with its proven impossibility?

You seem to holding to the definition of SF that it is the branch of literature that attempts suspension of disbelief by appeal to the authority of science, which is all very well, but not the one I was objecting to.

Mary wrote: "Huh?

What does your comment about ghosts have to do with the fact that they aren't impossible by scientific standards?

And what does people looking at FTL have to do with its proven impossibility..."

Oh dear, this is going to get complicated.
You ay that ghosts are 'not proven impossible'. True, I think, though some (and I mean some serious scientists) would disagree with you. My point is that any suggestion that ghosts be subjected to scientific scrutiny is normally dismissed - most scientists don't take them seriously enough to justify the effort of investigation - so there is very little (I am tempted to say 'none') evidence either way. I think the scientists are wrong to dismiss this subject so casually - they also tend to dismiss telepathy, clairvoyance, psychometry, etc in the same way, and I have had some experiences myself that were sufficient to justify further research, had the time and facilities been available to me. My point is that you claim ghosts are not proven impossible, where in fact there is simply insufficient evidence either way.
As for FTL - it is popularly believed that Einstein claimed that FTL travel was impossible. Current theories are that there might be some ways round his prohibition (which, as I understand it, stated that travel AT the speed of light was not possible for a material object). My point is that serious top-level scientists are taking the possibility of FTL seriously, and are investing a fair amount of time and effort in it, so I think "proven impossible" is a stronger claim than you can justify.
Clear now?

Surely real scientists avoid the study of anything that might be aware it is the object of scrutiny. When observation itself becomes stimulus the results are bound to be unreliable.

Found this a fun read:

The Rook

In science fiction, science is a pillar of society. In fantasy, magic is usually the equivalent knowledge-related pillar.

Al wrote: "Found this a fun read:

The Rook"

Thanks for taking us back to the theoretical topic of this thread - and I agree.

Lionel wrote: ". My point is that any suggestion that ghosts be subjected to scientific scrutiny is normally dismissed "

My point is that that is irrelevant when discussing "fantasy is impossible/SF possible" definition. Dismissing a suggestion is not proving something impossible.

Current theories are that there might be some ways round his prohibition

Those are not theories. Even their advocates admit that there is no evidence for them. Hypotheses do not dent a theory for which there are piles and piles of evidence and which precludes FTL.

Chris wrote: "In science fiction, science is a pillar of society. In fantasy, magic is usually the equivalent knowledge-related pillar."

Ah, but what is magic? Once upon a time, drinking a willow bark tea for headache was magic. So, for that matter, was putting arsenic in your uncle's stew to hasten your inheritance.

I note that when you want to read about discovering powers your best bet is probably YA or children's, because it's a natural plot there. Harry Potter. Percy Jackson. Septimus Heap. Etc.

Surely real scientists avoid the study of anything that might be aware it is the object of scrutiny. When observation itself becomes stimulus the results are bound to be unreliable.

Doesn't that immediately disqualify all the social sciences? And a good chunk of biology too.

Lionel wrote: "Try looking at this problem as "SF is a serious attempt to predict and/or examine possible consequences, whereas Fantasy is just an amusing or interesting story." Not entirely true, of course but there is an element of truth there, I think. That need for light entertainment used to be met by Space Opera and 'juvenile' stories; now Fantasy (that used to be merely updates on ancient mythologies) meets that need, and SF is (sometimes) becoming more serious.
Yes, I know, I have grossly overstated my case - but have a think. The niches are changing. Any more to add? "

"SF is a serious attempt to predict and/or examine possible consequences, whereas Fantasy is just an amusing or interesting story."

Ahh, not entirely what I was trying to get at. Basically sci-fi can be total fluff but still lean predictive, while fantasy can be very serious deep. I was just referring to the world building itself, I guess I was thinking that sci-fi tends to be more restrained in it's world building because it shares a common history with us while fantasy can either flavor that history or it can just completely rewrite it more freely. I guess maybe another way to put it, sci-fi is in the future with a shared history. Fantasy normally takes place either in another world or in a very different version of our own world.

Aaron wrote: "Furies series by Jim ButcherFuries of Calderon(complete) - First book is the weakest of the series and it's still pretty darn good.

MistbornThe Final Empire(complete) - F..."

I would add my recommendation to Aaron's for this series by Jim Butcher.
Excellent series.

I would also add the Man of His Word series by Dave Duncan. One of the best and most original fantasy series I've read. Ever.

Lionel wrote: "they also tend to dismiss telepathy, clairvoyance, psychometry, etc in the same way,

Actually, that's not true. Scientists spent decades researching those very things, and the governments of the US, UK and USSR spent tens of millions of dollars researching all sorts of ESP, from telepathy to clairvoyance to distance viewing.

The results were nil.

That's why you see a great deal of SF from the 1950s through the 1970s deal with psychic phenomena as a serious branch of science, one that we might be able to master one day. Niven's Known Space has it, Star Trek does, too, as well as McCaffrey's Dragonriders novels. Psychic abilities of varying degrees are all over the sci-fi landscape.

By the time you get to the late 70s and early 80s, though, it had largely vanished. That's because the results were in, and the answer was that they don't exist.

Scientists have also investigated ghosts, albeit on a far smaller scale. Interestingly, every single "haunted" location that has been investigated with the proper equipment has returned a positive result... for infrasound.

Infrasound is sound that's down on the bass end of the spectrum, pitched too low for us to hear. It's the opposite of ultrasound, which is pitched too high for our hearing. (Compare to wavelengths of light, from ultraviolet to infrared.) Although our ears can't detect ultrasound, we can still sense it, and it has effects on the human body.

Just as car radios which are too loud can interrupt the sinus rhythm of your heart and kill you by interfering with the electrical signals which control your heartbeat, infrasound can mess with our nervous system. Depending on its intensity, infrasound can elicit feelings of dread and fear all the way up to causing actual visual and auditory hallucinations.

The dread part is a hardwired response. Millions of years of evolution have taught us that infrasound is dangerous. The growl of a large predator like a tiger or crocodile, an earthquake, a volcano... these are all on the infrasound end of the spectrum. That's why we get chills when we hear those bass choirs singing, or get that little jolt of adrenaline when we hear far-off thunder. Once the signal gets intense enough, it affects us directly.

What we've recently discovered is that large animals use infrasound to communicate across miles. It's solved mysteries that have perplexed us for generations. How do elephants know where temporary waterholes are? It was assumed they were smelling them. Big noses equals better smelling. Turns out they're actually getting directions from other herds who have stumbled across the waterholes and are sending infrasound through the ground. How do whales coordinate breeding matchups across thousands of miles of empty ocean? They all seem to turn up in the same place at the same time despite being separated by vast distances. Turns out it's communication via infrasound.

So we have scratched the surface of ghost investigation, and so far the answer seems to be pretty straightforward. The inexplicable and apparently unexplainable feelings we experience during a haunting are caused by infrasound directly affecting our nervous system. We feel the result of the sound but can't sense the cause. so we attribute it to the supernatural, because we have no other explanations.

Now we do.

Oh, and FTL? That's only prohibited by Relativity, and there are a number of proposed ways around Einstein's laws. The Alcubierre Drive mentioned above is one.