The Humour Club discussion

Okay, logged in, looked around... other than in the discussions area, there is NOTHING about this change. No messages, and they still have all the links for starting a new book, etc (even though it sounds like incomplete books won’t transfer). No info at all, no warnings to authors? Is it supposed to be completely invisible, so our books don’t change at all, or are we going to wake up one morning and find our paperbacks have all disappeared? In any case, this will create a bunch of work updating info on my books, even if I don’t have to re-publish anything. Ugh.

I double hate that it’s all Amazon. I am have to research again what other paperback publication options are out there. IIRC when I last looked there was nothing else as cheap, though, and I don’t make enough on my books to pay extra.

Rebecca wrote: "Okay, logged in, looked around... other than in the discussions area, there is NOTHING about this change. No messages, and they still have all the links for starting a new book, etc (even though it..."

I got another email with a link on it to the KDP homepage which explains the transition. It should be seamless. The pricing doesn't need to change if you are in the US.

They are basically taking over the CS program so updates, etc., should be done the same way. I am almost ready to do another book, and I will see how it goes.

Brena, I’ll await your results with a worm on my tongue (“baited” breath, of course). I’m almost ready to start planning the first draft of my next book, so you’ll have plenty of time to sort out the bugs before I get there.

Brena wrote: "I got another email with a link on it to the KDP homepage which explains the transition..."

I also have a book that I keep threatening to publish, so I'm also very interested in hearing how things go for you. Let us know, Brena, and many thanks.

I had what I think may be a minor epiphany. One of the ways indie and self-publishers may be hurting themselves is by their almost total reliance on POD book printing. While it's great not to have to pay to produce something until someone buys it, POD severely limits where and how you can sell your books. If anyone reads this and is interested, I'll go into why.

Joel wrote: "I had what I think may be a minor epiphany. One of the ways indie and self-publishers may be hurting themselves is by their almost total reliance on POD book printing. While it's great not to have ..."

why?

Jay wrote: "Brena wrote: "I got another email with a link on it to the KDP homepage which explains the transition..."

I also have a book that I keep threatening to publish, so I'm also very interested in hear..."

I have done 2 books through KDP, and it was very easy. I still struggle with the conversion to ebook.

Brena wrote: "Joel wrote: "I had what I think may be a minor epiphany. One of the ways indie and self-publishers may be hurting themselves is by their almost total reliance on POD book printing. While it's great..."

Among other things: The cost/unit POD is substantially higher, so in order to get any kind of margin the book has to be priced above, and possibly well above, bookstore paperbacks. POD also severely limits your ability to get books into brick-and-mortar stores, particularly without having to do it on consignment. For example, if your bulk printing cost is $2.00/book, you sell it to the retail store for $5.00, and they can price it at $12.99, they're more likely to buy copies. Otherwise, you're restricted to online sellers (mostly Amazon), and are much more dependent on ebooks.

Joel wrote: "Brena wrote: "Joel wrote: "I had what I think may be a minor epiphany. One of the ways indie and self-publishers may be hurting themselves is by their almost total reliance on POD book printing. Wh..."

You might be right about getting the books on physical bookstores. They say that indie/local stores are on the rise (also that people are buying more physical copies), but that might be a bias caused by all the newspaper articles floating around or just a fad that might blow over. But it would be helpful to get your book on local stores, but the distribution, shipping, and contacting will be an issue. Those take a lot of time. So, I understand why many indie and self-publishers rely on print on demand and in general to Amazon. It would be nice if there were wider options open, making distribution easier. It still leaves a huge risk for the vendor to take on an indie book. Most likely as a self-published author, you would have to give them the right to return all the unsold books after some period of time and probably you would have to pay the shipping. The return policy is standard with big publishers as well. So, it gets really complicated despite the possible upside. And after working almost a decade in a bookstore, I noticed people rarely take chances with anything new. That takes a special kind of customer. They want what they know, have seen, read, been marketed at and so on.

Some kind of shared operation with indie/self-published authors might help to ease the bookstores to take on the risk and ease the distribution and get out of print on demand idea. So there might be an idea worth looking into.

I was thinking of selling print copies outright to stores. In other words, they buy it, they own it - no returns, nice and clean. It probably means having to pick up a phone, or make a few stops in person, but it's been done. You can go with a distributor (e.g., Ingram, Baker & Taylor), but that would require large printings and return options.

Has anyone used the marketing options offered by Amazon?

Brena wrote: "Has anyone used the marketing options offered by Amazon?"

I have used them, but they made a change a little while ago, and now I'm at a loss what to do with them. They left Sponsored Products, but those haven't worked for me at all. They changed Product Display Ads (which worked better than Sponsored Products) to Lockscreen Ads, and I'm not sure how those will work for self-published books. And I have an issue even opening the Lockscreen Ads section, it has an error message.

Some writers said that the ads aren't working, but others say they make most of their sales through them.

Sorry, I can't be more of a help. I searched for info about the new Lockscreen Ads, but there wasn't much out there yet.

K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "Has anyone used the marketing options offered by Amazon?"

I have used them, but they made a change a little while ago, and now I'm at a loss what to do with them. They left Sponsored..."

I need to experiment with the amazon promotion programs. A lot of writers aren't happy with Amazon, but they do have 72% of the market, so what can you do?

There is no way to sugarcoat it. Indie publishers don't have much chance of making any real money. Very few of the authors taken on by big publishers make more than their advance.

The only way I can think of for an Indie writer to get their book out there is to become crazy famous for something else. Once you have celebrity status, you can push your books.

Brena wrote: "K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "Has anyone used the marketing options offered by Amazon?"

I have used them, but they made a change a little while ago, and now I'm at a loss what to do with them. They l..."

I think your assessment is spot on about Amazon and the rest. I also have heard that some of the traditionally published authors are struggling to make ends meet and have turned into things like Patreon to support their writing. It is sad how even a contract isn't a guarantee to get the needed support to launch a career or even to have time to write. You are expected to do the same amount of marketing as the indies do and so on.

I'm just worried what it takes nowadays to get famous to push your books. Most of the things I see on TV or the Internet are kind of moronic, and my reaction fluctuates from sadness to astonishment to desperation.

K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "Has anyone used the marketing options offered by Amazon?"

I have used them, but they made a change a little while ago, and now I'm at a loss what to do wit..."

I am too old to think of writing in the big picture. I don't know how old you are, but I am guessing you are young enough to make a go of it.

I think there are other options rather than becoming a serial killer and writing a memoir. You have to build up your name. If you submit to literary magazines, you will be lost in the quagmire glut of aspiring writers. I think it is best to submit to mainstream magazines. They are less inclined to print their friends' stories. There are many who take uninvited submissions. A column is a major coup even if it is a small town paper. Your books will be taken more seriously if someone other than family and friends have heard of you.

You have to build your name first to push your books. There are way too many indie authors, and it is like spitting into the ocean. I doubt there are any marketing strategies that can actually cut through that.

Brena wrote: "I think there are other options rather than becoming a serial killer and writing a memoir..."

Ah crap, Brena! Now, I'm afraid to read your memoir.

Be very afraid Jay. I know you look like Ben Franklin, and I will find you.

Brena wrote: "K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "Has anyone used the marketing options offered by Amazon?"

I have used them, but they made a change a little while ago, and now I'm at a loss w..."

You are right about building your name and an online presence to have legitimacy and credibility. That it is easy to get lost into the mass and have no real impact. It is something I should have done before I even started writing and published my first book. That's the thing, something so basic is easy to forget and ignore. And I think I'm in the border of being too old and still young enough to take a shot, but the cap is closing and fast (33). I lack the aggressiveness that is required to do this and the rudeness. When did being rude, loud, and obnoxious become the thing?

K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "Has anyone used the marketing options offered by Amazon?"

I have used them, but they made a change a little while ago, and now I..."
I know what you mean. I lack the aggressiveness also. Self-promotion is hard. Try some letters to the editor of your local paper to establish a connection. I always wanted to do a crazy advice column. Cheryl Straying does an advice thing of sorts. Her advice is boring and serious, but she has developed an audience.

I think there is still a place for people who are not obnoxious.

Brena wrote: "K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "K.A. wrote: "Brena wrote: "Has anyone used the marketing options offered by Amazon?"

I have used them, but they made a change a little while a..."

Thank you! That is a good advice.

Are any self-published Humour Club authors taking the offset printing route, instead of POD?

Joel wrote: "Are any self-published Humour Club authors taking the offset printing route, instead of POD?"

What is the advantage to offset printing? I don't sell very many books.

Brena wrote: "Joel wrote: "Are any self-published Humour Club authors taking the offset printing route, instead of POD?"

What is the advantage to offset printing? I don't sell very many books."

The advantage is the ability to produce books much less expensively, which in turn could be sold to retailers at a price they can resell profitably. It opens up a lot more potential markets besides Amazon and maybe one or two other primarily ebook stores.

Joel wrote: "Brena wrote: "Joel wrote: "Are any self-published Humour Club authors taking the offset printing route, instead of POD?"

What is the advantage to offset printing? I don't sell very many books."

T..."
Honestly, I don’t see this penciling out for much of anyone. You would have to go around in person to all the bookstores and convince them, one at a time, to carry your books. How many copies would you have to buy at a go? 1000? Realistically, what are the odds you’ll sell that many?

I’ll stick with POD. I keep a supply on hand, and hand-sell at author-talks or on the rare occasions I work up enough nerve to talk to a local bookstore.

Rebecca wrote: "Joel wrote: "Brena wrote: "Joel wrote: "Are any self-published Humour Club authors taking the offset printing route, instead of POD?"

What is the advantage to offset printing? I don't sell very ma..."

I will stick with POD also. Locally owned bookstores may take books, but it really isn't to their advantage. Publishers buy back unsold books, and who wants to mess with that?

I give books to friends, but I need to stop doing that. They can buy them. A few don't read them anyway...oh wait...that is my relatives who don't read them...Burn.

Brenda, I’ve gotten very stingy about giving away books. I sent copies of my first book to lots of my friends and relations, and didn’t hear much about it from most of them, so I stopped. I have a few who get it, and I always send a copy to my mom (real paper; I’m more willing to give people ebooks if needed but Mom’s special).

I used to sell quite a few of my MG books when I did classroom visits at the schools, but I have moved and no longer will have the connections for that, so I don’t know if I’ll be doing any more.

I found what looks like a really good Facebook group for indie authors who want to improve sales: 20Booksto50k. They get into some very technical stuff as far as advertising and tools most of us probably had no idea existed.

Joel wrote: "I found what looks like a really good Facebook group for indie authors who want to improve sales: 20Booksto50k. They get into some very technical stuff as far as advertising and tools most of us pr..."

I will probably take a look. I will also probably decide that most of that is too much work. This may explain why I will always earn about enough for one cup of coffee/month.

Why do newspapers publish book reviews? Obviously it is to let readers know which new books are worth reading, worth buying. So why publish indifferent or even hostile reviews that effectively tell readers not to waste time or money on the reviewed book?

I am referring to general quality papers, not to publications like the TLS which might wish to review a range of books with a common theme. The Saturday editions of The Times always include a few reviews of fiction and non-fiction - presumably selected for perceived importance. Gerard DeGroot's full-page review of a book about the victims of "Jack the Ripper", by Hallie Rubenhold, printed in The Times on Saturday February 16th, is so luke-warm that few readers would bother to read or buy the book. There are other unfriendly reviews in the same issue and there are others in earlier issues. In the January 25th issue A.N. Wilson gave a scathing review of Professor Sir Richard Evans' biography of Eric Hobsbawm. Wilson's scorn was a tit-for-tat response to one of Evans' reviews, in which he tore to bits a Hitler biography that Wilson had published a few years ago. Given the obvious prejudice, why did The Times print the review?

Are there commercial contracts between important reviewers and major newspapers, in which the paper guarantees to publish a review, however critical?

Martin wrote: "Why do newspapers publish book reviews? Obviously it is to let readers know which new books are worth reading, worth buying. So why publish indifferent or even hostile reviews that effectively tell..."

You've hinted at something I've believed for quite some time: there is no standard for reviewing books. A good review should be independent of whether the reviewer liked it or not. It should focus on the merits of the book based on what it is (or is supposed to be), and not sound as personal as they sometimes do.

Joel wrote: "A good review should be independent of whether the reviewer liked it or not..."

I'm not sure I agree, Joel. There are many people who read particular reviewers because their opinions are similar to the reader's own taste.

Then, there's conflicting reviews... Do you remember Siskel and Ebert's At the Movies?



This is probably one of the most well-known examples of reviewers disagreeing publicly, and the public loved it. Siskel and Ebert's "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" recommendations sold a ton of movie tickets or, if a movie was panned, actually hurt a film's box office. The audience was indeed listening to their opinions.

I think the best a reviewer can do is give an honest opinion.

I have nothing against conflicting reviews, or even negative ones, as long as they're both honest and thoughtful. Panning a well-written book because it's not in the genre you usually read, for instance, isn't my idea of a review.

Joel wrote: "I have nothing against conflicting reviews, or even negative ones, as long as they're both honest and thoughtful. Panning a well-written book because it's not in the genre you usually read, for instance, isn't my idea of a review."

Well said. Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done about an 'idiot reviewer' other than to rely on the reader's judgement.

Joel wrote: "I found what looks like a really good Facebook group for indie authors who want to improve sales: 20Booksto50k. They get into some very technical stuff as far as advertising and tools most of us pr..."

I belong to a FB group run by Grant Hudson out of the UK. Inner Circle Writers' Group. I have a friend who belongs to a kazillion of these and directs me to them. This is the group I like. It may not be what you are looking for, but I think it is good for involvement and networking.

I recommend writers pay attention to things like these groups, if they are about writers sharing knowledge and expertise. Unfortunately, it's tough to weed out all the self-promoters, who are only interested in themselves and their masterpieces.

I found this while searching for something else, like you do every time you go online. It may be useful to those of you looking to traditionally publish your work:

https://writingtipsoasis.com/literary...

I just had Amazon tell me that, because they've detected "suspicious activity" from my account, I can't post any reviews of anyone else's books. This is nonsense, but so far there doesn't seem to be any recourse. Has anyone else encountered this? Or worse - have you had reviews knocked off your own books?

Joel wrote: "I just had Amazon tell me that, because they've detected "suspicious activity" from my account, I can't post any reviews of anyone else's books. This is nonsense, but so far there doesn't seem to b..."

This hasn't hit me yet, but I've heard a lot of complaints about this kind of thing. They claim to be trying to crack down on fake reviews, but they are doing it without giving the writers of real reviews any recourse to prove they aren't bots or shills.

I don't think I've lost any reviews, but I don't keep very close track.

Something a little different I'm trying for a book I have coming out early next year: I'm looking for reviewers from places other than the US. I'd love to see advance reviews posted on Amazon Canada, UK, Australia, India, Germany...countries which are frequently given short shrift by US publishers and indie authors.

Joel wrote: "Something a little different I'm trying for a book I have coming out early next year: I'm looking for reviewers from places other than the US. I'd love to see advance reviews posted on Amazon Canad..."
Nice idea. How are you doing at finding reviewers? It's nice that we can send ebooks to far-flung places at no extra cost--even before GR limited the giveaways so much, I had to stop doing international ones.

Rebecca wrote: "Joel wrote: "Something a little different I'm trying for a book I have coming out early next year: I'm looking for reviewers from places other than the US. I'd love to see advance reviews posted on..."

So far, okay. I find that I have to ask people individually, but I don't mind having to work a little. Especially for this book - it's unusual, in I think, a good way.

To pick up the thread from Joel's question, I will be publishing my first book in the upcoming months. Obviously it's a comedy book.

I would like to ask, from your experience, how does one go about finding professional reviewers to review their book? Is there a place to find them? Are there any that you would recommend?

There are places you can send it like Readers' Favorite, Foreword Reviews, Booklife (if you're self-publishing), Armchair Interviews - you can find them with a little digging online. My strong advice is not to pay for reviews - Amazon won't post paid reviews, and while these reviewers promise greater exposure, they don't result in more sales. You might also try Goodreads reviewers groups. I have, with mixed success. I would also try and get review copies out enough in advance that, when your book goes live, there are already positive reviews in place.

Joel wrote: "There are places you can send it like Readers' Favorite, Foreword Reviews, Booklife (if you're self-publishing), Armchair Interviews - you can find them with a little digging online. My strong advi..."

Thanks for the heads up Joel :)

Ralph wrote: "Joel wrote: "There are places you can send it like Readers' Favorite, Foreword Reviews, Booklife (if you're self-publishing), Armchair Interviews - you can find them with a little digging online. M..."

I would also advise you against swapping reviews with other authors. There are many reasons not to do this.

I just found out that anyone can submit a post to Buzzfeed, including book reviews. You can't submit your own, but articles and reviews are accepted and considered.

Joel wrote: "I just found out that anyone can submit a post to Buzzfeed, including book reviews. You can't submit your own, but articles and reviews are accepted and considered."

So does that mean that you could submit a review I posted on my blog, for example?

Rebecca wrote: "Joel wrote: "I just found out that anyone can submit a post to Buzzfeed, including book reviews. You can't submit your own, but articles and reviews are accepted and considered."

So does that mean..."

I would imagine, though the person who wrote it should probably be the one who submits. Possibly as an article.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/...

Joel wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "Joel wrote: "I just found out that anyone can submit a post to Buzzfeed, including book reviews. You can't submit your own, but articles and reviews are accepted and considered."

S..."
Okay, so I think I misunderstood you. The "not your own" you mean is you can't submit about your own book, not that you can't submit your own reviews.

Rebecca wrote: "Joel wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "Joel wrote: "I just found out that anyone can submit a post to Buzzfeed, including book reviews. You can't submit your own, but articles and reviews are accepted and co..."

As I understand it. I'm finding there are a number of places online where you can post reviews of of other people's books, if submitted in the form of articles, especially if they're more about the author or something the author highlights in their work. Might be worth trying to find someone willing to do this for you.