Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
II. Publishing & Marketing Tips
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We would all like professional services.
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Well said, Rod. You've made some great points.
Very good advice! There is a new company that is launching soon that is a self-publishing company, but also offers a lot of editorial services as well. From what I saw the editorial services were of all price ranges and a lot were pretty affordable. The company is called Nunabooks, I just checked and their website is down, but I guess they are relaunching soon. Hope this helps people!
Excellent pointers, Rod, especially reading it out loud. You'll catch stuff that way that often even a very good editor can miss. It's also valuable for ascertaining whether you've kept the voice of the characters and the story true.
Self-Editing - Convert your MS to a strange font and larger size. Then read it through (you actually fool your brain into thinking its a NEW document) for grammar and logic etc.Self-Proofread - Read the MS backwards checking every word for spelling. Circle every bit of punctuation and then recheck that it is all correct.
Then send it to a pro...
Some of those issues, particularly structural ones, do have to do with creativity. Spelling and even grammar, not really, although the better your tools, the better you will be able to tell your story. Typos happen, and they are the enemy of us all. Most of the self-policing advice is extremely sound. And use a beta! Even if they are not writers themselves, most avid readers can spot a structural issue or a plot hole.
I've found some Betas to be more helpful than some writer-crits. It can be difficult, as a writer, to avoid the "if I were writing this" trap and stand back and look at the work independently. If you find a writer who can do that, and will go over your work for you, treat them like GOLD. Because they are.
I have written my first book and self published it, not a good time! very frustrating however I have spoken to a couple of publishers and I am seriously considering using their services has anyone gone through this process? I could use some good sound advice
I haven't, but a good friend of mine is celebrating being free of his publisher. He's had to do all the real work himself, hire his own editor, and then fight to keep his covers in tune with the content, and then not been able to get copies when he needs them . . . one pain after the other. He's publishing his fourth on his own, through CreateSpace.He celebrated when his publisher agreed to release him.
K.K. wrote: "I have spoken to a couple of publishers and I am seriously considering using their services "You need to clarify the type of publisher. With a traditional publisher (if they take unsolicited submissions, most big ones require an agent) you send in a query letter. If they are interested they ask to see the full. Then if they offer a contract they undertake all production costs (and some also have marketing departments) and in return they take a % of book sale royalties. These publishers make their money by selling books.
A vanity/scam publisher will ask you to pay up front, usually anything from a few hundred to several thousands of dollars depending on what package they sell you. You will receive mediocre cover art, no editing (or maybe spell checker), an unrealistically high book price and the "publisher" will take most of your royalties (if you ever sell and books) and hold all your rights hostage. These types of publishers make their money by taking it from writers.
Please do your research and keep one basic rule in mind - money flows to the author. Its a huge red flag if any "publisher" starts asking for money up front.
One other point KK, if you are unhappy with current sales/reviews, who set your e-book price? At over $10 for only 145 pages your novel is priced higher than Big 5 best sellers. Most people will only pay around $0.99 to $2.99 for a short novel from an unknown debut author.
Renee, your friend's publisher made him do all the work like that? I'd have celebrated too, jeez.As for the post, that text-reader idea is pretty clever. Pretty good ideas all arouns.
A.W. wrote: "K.K. wrote: "I have spoken to a couple of publishers and I am seriously considering using their services "You need to clarify the type of publisher. With a traditional publisher (if they take uns..."
That is a high price point for an e-book, especially considering genre. Some big six books are priced that high, BUT they are locked in a death match with Amazon over it, and most observers think it's short sighted. Also the reason they price them so high is that they'd rather sell print, which really isn't a consideration for most indies. E-books are where the money is. Also, if you're not distributing anywhere else (Smashwords, for example) you should probably enroll in Select, because you can make money off their lend programs.
There are a number of reputable small and e-publishers out there that don't require submissions to be agented, and will provide professional services. I repeat A.W.'s excellent advice. If a publisher wants any money up front, they are a vanity press, and if they are masquerading as a selective publisher, it is a scam. There are a handful of reputable vanities, but they don't make any sense for most writers.
Thanks all for your comments! Excellent advice that's why I was thinkin about a publisher who would include editing help and cover design as I am off the ark (teehee) seriously I don't have the social media knowledge to use it effectively I am havin a hard time just gettin a blog out lol so the idea of a publisher who can do the grunt work sounds tempting but now I'm reslly nervous as I have heard so much feedback on scammers sigh! What to do. What to do.
Oh, good luck finding a publisher who does ANY of that. Legitimately, not just expensive promises.
Linda wrote: "@K.K. -- you have basically two choices:1. Go for a "publisher" who will take your money up front and probably put out a crappy product and never sell more than half a dozen copies.
-or-
2. Take the time and put in the effort to learn the business. There is no magic wand. This isn't Harry Potter. "
Of course, even Harry Potter was rejected by ten different publishers before it was finally sold.
Betas are vital. I think the biggest mistake new authors make is publishing too soon before enough eyes have looked at their work. An otherwise really good story can be ruined by a single plot hole or a plethora of misspellings and grammar errors. Beta readers can really help you see your work from a new angle and think about your characters or setting in a new way that you might not have considered before.
Omg seriously I have done so much research my eyes are crossed! But I will take your advice and do yet some more sigh ps bless jk Rowling I will pray to her everyday lol it helps that so many others are going through this process. Truly it shouldn't be so hard! There are so many good writers out there!
Hella yeah there should be a magic wand c'mon really?
Going back a step from betas, I see many people rushing to publish when they have never used critique partners. You need a critique circle with fellow writers of different strengths. You swap chapters so you learn to give and receive criticism/critiques. Your CPs help tighten plot, pacing, characterisation and spelling/grammar. Then you go to beta readers for an "overall feel".Once you've been through CPs and betas you should have a fairly polished manuscript before you go to a professional editor. Too many indies skip these steps and then wonder why they either don't sell any books (because people use the look inside feature now before buying) or end up with negative reviews citing things that should have been picked up by CPs.
Thanks for all your help nice to have the support
A.W. wrote: "Going back a step from betas, I see many people rushing to publish when they have never used critique partners. You need a critique circle with fellow writers of different strengths. You swap chapt..."The big part of this is to recieve the criticism well. This doesn't mean you have to impliment everything anybody says, but keep an open mind. I give advise intending to help. It's not always recieved that way. This is not an attack, it's a different viewpoint. Getting people with an outside perspective is a good thing.
Absolutely and most important is to remember to have a sense of humor we are after all mere humans! Lol
Not in my books, I have written myself as an alien there. Which means I know even less about grammer and content. I do indeed keep a sense of humor though...
For sure I guess it just depends on your genre we all have different needs time and financial constraints each author is unique not only for their story but in there own personal life I try not to judge myself too hard I am my own worst critic it really comes down to believing in yourself and your story no matter how one chooses to do this process is a decision I am in the process of learning aslong as you are moving forward and learning hell yeah!
There have been some lively debates within a few discussion groups in which the participants have agreed to disagree (sometimes rather heatedly) about the relevance and importance of adhering to standard rules of grammar, punctuation, syntax, and spelling when writing.Most local libraries include areas dedicated to books that focus upon proper technical writing and narration skills. There are also professional writing seminars available at little or no cost.
No matter how good or original an author's ideas and concept may be, a book, rife with bad grammar, misspelled words, incorrect punctuation and syntax, will not be well-received.
If for no other reason, an author should learn how to write properly out of respect for their potential readers. A writer should not insult the reader's intelligence or underestimate their own.
Yup and like the saying goes opinions are like noses everyone got one lol seriously I appreciate ALL the advice and comments thank you for the great ideas I will check it out keep on writing!
Well. There's adhering to standard rules, and then there's the deliberate flouting of them. That would be me.
I busted my hump on all my previous books/stories, getting everything just right, but this time, I chose to write Hands, a sword-and-sorcery adventure-comedy, in 'forsoothly' style, AKA Elizabethan.
Some hated it, and said so, but most of my beta readers liked it or loved it, and one called it a masterpiece! OK, he's an Australian, so maybe their standards are different, but still...
I understand that this limits the story as far as markets are concerned. But sometimes I think we make marketability too important and forget how much fun writing can be.
It put me in the mood to write my next novel, the one that's been waiting on my desk for me to get around to it. After a four-month wait, it's underway...so even if Hands doesn't sell, I can offer it as a teaser or a countdown deal and generate sales of other books.
Almost EVERYTHING you write and publish can be good, if you approach it the right way. Consider a short sample:
"How now, goodman Leo? Would seek to cozen me, in the seeming of one such as tumbled from the turnip-wagon but a day agone, and without wit to discover the way to remount it?"
Goodness knows how many rules I broke with that paragraph! But I smiled when I wrote it, and I smile now whenever I read it. That's good enough; the novella is a success even before the first copy sells.
So true as u said before we are but mere humans I thank you for your words of wisdom good luck in your endeavours hope you enjoy the writing if it is what brought us here in the first place keep writing
Jim wrote: "There have been some lively debates within a few discussion groups in which the participants have agreed to disagree (sometimes rather heatedly) about the relevance and importance of adhering to st..."Hmm... That's funny, Jim, you don't look very much like me, but I think we speak from the same mind. Bad grammar (except in dialogue where it serves to help create a particular character), ruins a book for me. So does the incorrect use of words e.g. "emulated" when the author meant "emanated", improperly formatted and punctuated work, and bad spelling. When I find this, I seldom finish the book and for sure will never buy another from that author. No, I'm not suggesting everyone get a degree in English before he or she writes, but every writer should at least have a firm grip on the language above say, a third-grade level.
Judy and Jim: Bad grammar, spelling and punctuation, improper use of words and poor sentence structure will stop me cold when reading. That's usually where I close the book and find a better one. How do you write anything without the proper tools. Good English is imperative. If you don't know it - then learn it before you decide to write that book.
Christine wrote: "Self-Editing - Convert your MS to a strange font and larger size. Then read it through (you actually fool your brain into thinking its a NEW document) for grammar and logic etc.Self-Proofread - R..."
Christine, these are excellent suggestions. I taught writing at University and these were very little known techniques that soon became favourites of the students. It's surprising how much easier it is to pick up those grammatical and spelling errors you couldn't see before.
Stephanie wrote: "Christine wrote: "Self-Editing - Convert your MS to a strange font and larger size. Then read it through (you actually fool your brain into thinking its a NEW document) for grammar and logic etc. ..."I accidentally came upon a strange tool for self-proofing. I download an audible book from the library, plug in my ear-buds and run it while I'm proofreading. It seems to keep my right-brain and left-brain in opposite hemispheres. I don't seem to miss the book I'm listening to, but it slows down my eyes so I see more typos. It's very weird. Your mileage may vary.
Wow, Judy! That sounds like a great idea! I love to listen to music while I'm proofing, something like Deva Premal, or have the TV on, something like a cooking show, interesting but not too challenging. But this sounds like it would do the trick as well. I must try it!
While writing the manuscript for my novel, I was fortunate to have my four adult children, who were willing to serve as proof readers, critics, and advisors. It took me fourteen months of writing, re-writing and fine-tuning to produce a completed, polished manuscript.Receiving a publishing contract, after having received four rejection letters, provided a much-needed ego boost.
Several months of working with and learning from the layout design artist, copy editor and conceptual editor, assigned by the publisher to help mold the manuscript into a commercially viable 376-page book, gradually made me realize that the completed, polished manuscript, of which I had been so proud, was neither complete nor polished.
Lesson learned! Be proud of my work, yet realistic and humble enough to realize that there are others who possess knowledge, skills, and experience that I lack, and from whom I can learn and benefit.
Charlotte wrote: "Wow, such great advice! For a final proofread, I try printing my book, splitting it into chapters, then proofreading the chapters out of order. I find it helps keep my eyes fresh rather than race t..."I've tried the reading backward trick and it doesn't work very well for me. I think that's mostly because I then read only the line--great for spotting typos--but not so great for ensuring the entire sentence reads correctly. Do you read only the line, Charlotte, or the full sentence when you do this?
I've mentioned this elsewhere, so some are probably tired of seeing it, but my method is to load the book onto my Kindle, cover and all, and regard it as a finished, published book. I can find lame writing and typos in the work of others, so why not my own. It works for me, and the first time I tried it I was surprised at how the typos and awkward phrases stood out. I make notations on the Kindle, and then transfer the corrections to the main document on my computer. Then I reload the book on the Kindle and start the process all over. I'm sure I don't get everything; no one does. But in the end the book comes out pretty clean and well polished.
Ken wrote: "I've mentioned this elsewhere, so some are probably tired of seeing it, but my method is to load the book onto my Kindle, cover and all, and regard it as a finished, published book. I can find lam..."I don't own a Kindle, just a Kindle app on my iPad, but I transfer everything to PDF, save it to Dropbox and pick it up on the IPad using iAnnotate, which I find really good for helping find awkward sentences and other bloopers. I make changes, insert notes and highlights, then do a search in the main doc to enter the changes needed. Like Ken said, I don't get everything, but I get a lot more than if I just kept staring at my document file. A different medium really helps.
That's what I've done on occasion, Charlotte, and you're right, it is jerky, but better than line-by-line.
Let me start by saying that there is no substitute for professional editors, illustrators, marketers, and such. These professionals have paid their dues, and the best thing an author can do, is to take advantage of that. This is sometimes not an option, but that doesn’t mean you should be satisfied with a poor product.
We’ve all seen them, books with: typos, spaces between words, misspelled words, poor structure, and a host of other problems that make the material unreadable. The sad part is that none of the problems have anything to do with creativity.
Here are a few ideas that can help make your masterpiece ready for publication.
1. Find out where your weak points are, and start learning.
It’s always best to try and fix the problem yourself first. There are a ton of books out there that address issues like grammar, punctuation, structure, character development, and just about anything having to do with writing. Some of it is free, while others are inexpensive. Spending a good amount on a good writing book is not a bad idea. Remember sometimes you get what you pay for. There are a host of web sites where you can get information from as well.
2. Re-write.
Your first draft is supposed to be - You pouring words onto a paper out of a large container into a pile. There is nothing wrong with that, but it’s not where you stop. Get friends or family to look at it. You have no support group? No problem! Some authors are like me, and are willing to help if they can make time. Ask on a blog or connect directly. Start a webpage and get input from strangers. Most readers would get a kick out of contributing to your book, and you get an instant market from those that do.
3. Read out loud.
Take your book one sentence at a time and say it out loud. It’s better to have a listener, but hearing it yourself is helpful. If you have trouble with that, try cutting and pasting one sentence at a time into another document.
4. Listen to your book.
Get someone to read it to you. No support? Search how to turn on your text to speech for your computer, and have your computer read it to you. There are also free programs that you can install that work well enough.
5. Get semi-professional help.
Join a group on Linked-in or Goodreads, and ask someone. Start a blog. Do a pre-publish book trade with a similar author. I just asked a local college that has a journalism major for an exchange. It’s a good trade!
They get:
a. To practice their journalism skills.
b. Be part of the publishing process.
c. Get acknowledged in my book
d. Get a free autographed copy as a memento
e. A fun diversion from their regular work.
I get:
a. Editing services for free
b. Feedback
c. Exposure from a good target audience
d. An excuse for an article in the local newspaper.
I got a “yes” from the first college I asked, and I will let you know how it goes.
Get help from the community, but don’t take it personally. At the same time, don’t accept every suggestion you get. Be sure to: Analyze the feedback and see if it works for you, get additional opinions, and look it up from a reputable source. Don’t forget to pay it forward, and try to help those that ask you for assistance if you can make spare time.
Bottom line, there are plenty of resources you can take advantage of. A little due diligence will make the Indie community look better, make your book sell better, and shows you care about your literary infant.
Hope this helps. Write on!
Rod