SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

An immutable law of Sci-Fi and Fantasy is that the story MUST BE A TRILOGY (or tetralogy, or heptology, or whatever the heck Wheel of Time is), lots of stories that would fit perfeclty well within a single volume get stretched beyond their breaking point.

So what series suffer the biggest dropoff in quality from their first volume to their last? Conversely, what series improved the most?

My Nominations:
Wheel of Time, by Brandon Sanderson/Robert Jordan (Sanderson did an admirable job of trying to salvage it, but it was just too little, too late)

Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind

Dune by Frank Herbert (does ANYONE know wtf Chapterhouse: Dune was about?

Harry Potter by J.K. Rowling is more pyramid shaped with the first two books being average, the middle three being quite good and the final two not measuring up.

Any others?

Wheel of time is my first nomination but the fionavar tapestry comes in a close second

Mercedes Lackey's Dragon Jousters series. First two? Loved. Last two? WTF happened???

I read the title of the thread and Goodkind came to my mind right away.

Raymond E. Feist is very varied too. Great start, then a few duds, then back to being pretty good. Interestingly enough the books he co-wrote with Wurst are a lot better then some of his own. Daughter of the Empire

I only read the first Jordan book, I think the sheer amount of books daunted me.

Just remembered another serie that dropped off for me:
Marion Zimmer Bradley started great with The Mists of Avalon but I quit reading after number 3 (just checked and see there are 7 books in the serie!!)

I'll say Song of Fire and Ice.

That 4th book was a serious clunker.
And for me the 5th killed the series, which is sad, because it's fun to experience something still going.

The latter Anne McCaffrey dragon books were certainly nowhere up to the first two or three. And, oh heavens, do NOT contemplate the latter volumes of the Gor series by John Norman. Even if you liked the first several, the latter ones were ... worse.

Id have to say The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy Live.

The quality went downhill each book and I only just managed to get through the fourth.

Haven't gotten around to reading the fifth yet and don't think I'll bother.

Dune - Rapidly diminishing parabola to this story arc that went "From awesome to ugh!" within four books. Never read past God Emperor of Dune. From everything I have heard and read about the other books in the series, I gather that I haven't missed much.

The Dark Tower/Gunslinger - Up & down throughout the series. Incredible hubris for an author to write themselves into the narrative. It almost could have worked and I understood the cathartic nature of what King was doing there but, but, but... Also, the Mario Brothers-esque 'battle' with the Crimson King was just silly and poorly rendered.

Otherland - Great start and a really good ending. Lots of slow trudging about in the middle two books. As a trilogy, this might have been an absolutely great cyber-fantasy.

Song of Ice & Fire: Have to agree w/Vanessa that book 4 was a let down. I have not yet read book 5. If & when the series is finished, I plan to re-read from the beginning, (if I'm still alive in 2027! :).

Brenda wrote: "The latter Anne McCaffrey dragon books were certainly nowhere up to the first two or three. And, oh heavens, do NOT contemplate the latter volumes of the Gor series by John Norman. Even if you like..."

That reminds me - the latter books in McCaffrey's Brain & Brawn series were pretty atrocious. But they were also written by other people - not McCaffery. She co-wrote one book with each other and each author wrote one alone.

Wheel of Time, obviously. That has to be the series with the highest abandonment rate ever. Outside the internet, I have yet to meet a person who didn't give up on these books.

Regarding ASoIaF, while I agree that AFFC dragged, it was still a good book, and I think that ADWD was actually the second best book in the series, second only to aSoS. I was really surprised after finishing it to see all the hate it got.

Oh man, how could I forget The Dark Tower.

I can't bring myself to put A Song of Ice and Fire in there just yet only because the series isn't done and #5 was better than #4.

I will also nominate The Walking Dead series of graphic novels though.

Jeanette (jema) wrote: "Raymond E. Feist is very varied too. Great start, then a few duds, then back to being pretty good. Interestingly enough the books he co-wrote with Wurst are a lot better then some of his own. "

When I saw the thread title, my first thought was Feist. I loved his Riftwar Saga and also the Empire trilogy with Janny Wurts. The Riftwar Saga is, in fact, what got me into fantasy in the first place. I discovered his books after playing an old video game based on them (Betrayal at Krondor). The quality of the books slowly started dropping off as things progressed. I think it was around the Serpentwar Saga when I realized I had completely lost interest and I never picked up any of his newer books.

I haven’t read most of the other series mentioned, but I did read the first four books of the Wheel of Time last year. I liked them, actually, although I wouldn’t rate them among my favorites. I think a large part of my problem was that I couldn’t invest the necessary time to read them. I was really busy at the time and would often only have 5 minutes here and there to read, often at the end of the day when I could barely keep my eyes open. It wasn’t enough of a time investment to keep everything fresh in my head so I felt like I was missing some of the continuity not just between books but even within the same book. If I’d really loved them, I probably would have given up sleep in exchange for more reading time. They were good, but not that good. I’d like to start over and try them again sometime, someday when I feel pretty confident I’ll be able to put more time into them, but it will definitely be a long while.

Kevan wrote: "I thought the steepest dropoff was in Christopher Paolini's Inheritance Cycle. The first book was brilliant, but each one after that set a new low."

Leather-clad vegetarian elves who kill helpless injured animals? What more could you want? :)

The Big 3 - Wheel of Time, Song of Ice and Fire, and Sword of Truth. I abandoned all three series, vowing never to read anything else written by those authors. Wheel of Time I just lost interest somewhere around book 4 or 5 or 6 when I realized I had no idea what was going on and I really didn't care. Song of Ice and Fire I started to get the idea that Martin has no idea where he's going with the story, and those novels are just way too long to invest the time in reading them when it seems to me the series is doomed to go off the rails. Sword of Truth I abandoned in book 2 after a rape scene that left me feeling like I'd been rolling around in something nasty.

I've gotten to the middle of book 4 of Dark Tower, and while I think I'll finish it (though I know it can only end in tears and I hate unhappy endings) I've heard enough about how the rest of the series goes to know it sounds like a book-tosser to me.

I love a good series, but they're so hard to write well, and the ubiquitousness of series in science fiction and fantasy is really more of a curse than a blessing. I'd rather see more good stand-alones or short (2-3 book) series than these long ones that just can't keep up the quality.

Malazan Book of the Fallen I think went downhill.

I think we can all agree WoT did so for a few books, at least.

I agree that Book 5 of Ice and Fire was kind of a let down for me, after anticipating it. I need to read it again.

I think quite a few of the Drizzt books were a little slow in the middle. I could have done without the last to Road of the Patriarch books.

At first I didn't like the Dark Tower taking a pause with Book 4, but now I appreciate it, after starting the series again.

I haven't read Feist since high school, so I can't really comment on that - can't remember.

I totally agree that Sword of Truth started to go downhill after Book 2 or so, maybe after Book 1.

Looks like there are quite a few candidates for dropoffs. Let's look at the opposite.

Which series got significantly better as it progressed?

I thought Harry Potter got better from #1 to #3. To me, Prisoner of Azkaban was where the series peaked. Of course, #1 was ground breaking, and therefore unique. #5 to #7 felt like an overstretched elastic band.

I hope Kingkiller Chronicles doesn't drop off. I liked #1 so much better than #2 - hoping that #2 was an aberration. Waiting for #3.

Kevan wrote: "Looks like there are quite a few candidates for dropoffs. Let's look at the opposite.

Which series got significantly better as it progressed?

I thought Harry Potter got better from #1 to #3. To m..."

Maybe a new thread would be better for that.

Agree.

Here is the new thread: Which series got REALLY better as it progressed?

I didn't like the turn the Foundation series took. The first one was awesome, but then Asimov went in what felt like a different direction.

Kyra wrote: "The Big 3 - Wheel of Time, Song of Ice and Fire, and Sword of Truth. I abandoned all three series, vowing never to read anything else written by those authors. Wheel of Time I just lost interest so..."

If the poem The Dark Tower is based off of gives any indication...The Dark Tower can not help but to end in tears and futility.

I'm a bit shocked about how the many people are saying the Dark Tower dropped off in quality. I'd agree that the very ending is a bit disappointing, but to me the worst book in the series was the first, and it kept getting better until about book 5 then leveled off.

I hope the Dark Tower gets better. I'm part way through the second, and REALLY don't want to invest that much more time if the first was the best.

WoT SUCKED HARD in the middle, but the last books made up for it decently.

I'm not a Martin fan anyways, so I agree with most of the commentary on books 4 and 5. I'm still stuck on #4. Who knows when I'll finally finish it.

Vanessa wrote: "I'll say Song of Fire and Ice.

That 4th book was a serious clunker.
And for me the 5th killed the series, which is sad, because it's fun to experience something still going."

Agreed - the 4th book was a slog. I had so much trouble willing myself to pick it up and keep reading. I have heard that the 5th book gets marginally better, so I'm going to force myself to at least give it a shot in the hope that the next books will be worth it.

I can't think of any, because I either avoided or gave up on most of those already mentioned. My nomination would probably be Goodkind. And what a steep drop off it was!

Kevan wrote: "I thought Harry Potter got better from #1 to #3. To me, Prisoner of Azkaban was where the series peaked. Of course, #1 was ground breaking, and therefore unique. #5 to #7 felt like an overstretched elastic band...."

By and large, this sums up my feelings on the HP books. Though how exactly ground-breaking the Book # 1 was is a bit debatable. Viz, Wizard's Hall. In any event, glad that's someone else on planet Earth who emerged from the series with roughly the same sense of it as I did.

Another that occurred to me: A childhood favorite of mine, the Xanth books, by Piers Anthony. The first four, possibly five books in the series are an entertaining and quite fun read. After that? Not so much.

Megatherium wrote: "Kevan wrote: "I thought Harry Potter got better from #1 to #3. To me, Prisoner of Azkaban was where the series peaked. Of course, #1 was ground breaking, and therefore unique. #5 to #7 felt like an overstretched elastic band...."

By and large, this sums up my feelings on the HP books. Though how exactly ground-breaking the Book # 1 was is a bit debatable. Viz, Wizard's Hall. In any event, glad that's someone else on planet Earth who emerged from the series with roughly the same sense of it as I did. "

I have to say...

Mercedes Lackey has been writing "magical boarding school" books since...forever. JKR wasn't groundbreaking in that. At all. In fact, I never finished the HP series because...I'd done the magic boarding school thing with Lackey and liked hers better.

I hadn't thought about Harry getting better or worse. For me the best bits are doing homework and playing sport and going for house cup, so I like the earlier books best. I don't need the stakes to be so high with it.

It's interesting, if you really scratch the surface there's not a single creature, name, or concept that is original in Harry Potter - but I still think it's great.

I'm with you on the Wheel of Time. I regret the hours lost.

And as much as I think GG.Kay is awesome, I agree with Scott that the Fionavar Tapestry was boring me by the time it ended. I'm also in agreement with the callout on Fiest. Except for the original Magician series, the others were dismal attempts to capitalize on a good thing.

I'd like to also suggest that the Honor Harrington series needs to be put out of it's misery. As the series went on, the books grew bloated in size and content.

Disagree with the Potter books getting worse as the series went on. I never regretted reading a single one, which certainly hasn't been the case with every series I've started.

Can't really disagree with the ones mentioned already.

Outside of this list Spin was a book I really enjoyed. I would have been very happy if it had been left as a stand alone book. However, the author turned it into a trilogy and neither of the books was up to the first book.

I never got around to Spin. On a similar note I thought Forever Peace was a lot better than Forever War.

Joe Haldeman

One series that deteriorated quickly is The Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel (the first novel of which is The Alchemyst).

It started with an unimaginative premise ("twins of destiny born to save the world", oh brother), but redeemed itself with the attempt at uniting all of the world's mythologies and some famous people from history in an epic tale of good vs. evil to decide the future of humanity. However, the original premise was lost as the author trudged through a painful series of introductions to every being he could possibly think to include, regardless of their relevance, and this was all in lieu of character development and plot advancement.

I tried to continue because I don't like to leave a series unfinished, but it was just terrible.

Ron wrote: "Outside of this list Spin was a book I really enjoyed. I would have been very happy if it had been left as a stand alone book. However, the author turned it into a trilogy and neither of the books was up to the first book."

I read the Spin trilogy a few years ago and liked it pretty well at the time. But I agree the first book was the best. I can still remember the story behind the first book, but I only remember blurry bits and pieces from the other two books.

DavidO wrote: "I'm a bit shocked about how the many people are saying the Dark Tower dropped off in quality. I'd agree that the very ending is a bit disappointing, but to me the worst book in the series was the first..."

I'm the one that first mentioned The Dark Tower series in this thread, but I did not say that it dropped off. I found it to be up and down. Here's how I rate each book...

The Gunslinger ★★-3/4
The Drawing of the Three ★★★-1/2
The Waste Lands ★★★
Wizard & Glass ★★★-1/3
Wolves of the Calla ★★-1/4
Song of Susannah ★★★-1/4
The Dark Tower ★★★
The Wind Through the Keyhole ★★★-1/4

Note: I tend to be stingy with 5-star reviews. Three stars means I liked it. Four means I am likely to read it again. Five means I loved it and am likely to re-read more than once.

While I found TDT to be a good, entertaining series overall, I am unlikely to re-read any of it ever again. That doesn't mean I hated it - only that I didn't like it well enough to work through such a long story more than once - especially when, at the terminus, I found another one of those infamous Stephen King endings... ;)

Despite that ending, I thought the series picked up pretty well in books 6 & 7. Book 5, Wolves of the Calla, was my least favorite, (long & drawn out), while book 2, The Drawing of the Three, was my favorite. I really enjoyed the introductions of the other protagonists as I found them to be a lot more interesting than Roland himself had become up to that point. Wizard & Glass I liked too - even though it didn't move the Dark Tower story arc forward very much, it developed Roland as a character to the point where he also became much more interesting to me.

Anyway, that's just my two cents on that series...

Ron wrote: "Outside of this list Spin was a book I really enjoyed. I would have been very happy if it had been left as a stand alone boo..."

Ohhh....good one. I loved Spin, but the following two volumes were remarkably weak efforts in comparison.

I've read all the Sword of Truth except the absolute newest one, and I liked some of the middle and later ones more than some of the earlier ones. Some cool and different themes and things he explored.

The new ones have more thriller type pacing. So I'd say it's uneven but not linear downhill.

I'm not halfway in the Dark Tower right now so can't comment there.

A dip in the middle series for me was Brent Weeks Night Angel. Enjoyed the first, found the first half of the second fairly annoying but persevered, then enjoyed the plot the rest of the way.

Almost all YA scifi/fantasy novels: Eragon, Nicholas Flamel, Hunger Games.
The Southern Vampire Mystery by Charlaine Harris. I only read book 8 and the rest just because I already read book 1-7.
The Black Company by Glen Cook. The first two books were excellent, the rest...well I stopped. Maybe it'll pick up but nah, don't have time.

A Song of Ice and Fire? Jury's still out for me. I have to do a re-read of AFFC and ADWD (the combined FeastDance re-read) before making any decision. I think while those two books are not as explosive as the previous ones, there are lots of details and layers one have to read more than once to appreciate.

WoT is at the top, no dispute there, The Forever War trilogy dives real deep by the second book in the series, one of the not so smooth dropoffs. I could easily name Spin trilogy among disappointments after a fabulous start of series.

Silvana wrote: "Almost all YA scifi/fantasy novels: Eragon, Nicholas Flamel, Hunger Games.
"

Silvana wrote: "The Black Company by Glen Cook. The first two books were excellent, the rest...well I stopped."

That's a pretty broad statement to make about YA series, or are you specifically speaking to the three series you mentioned afterwards?

I'm with you on the Black Company. To me, they lost their edge as the series went on, and I bailed when I saw no end in sight.

Enders Game, Dune, Foundation all would of been great if they just stopped.

Eragon was a massive drop off too, the first book was the most generic thing but it was pretty good for YA then every book after was significantly worse then the last.

I kinda disagree on Honor Harrington it feels like it's in a transitional state right now, it felt like it started to pop out of it in the latest book a few books in a row were clunkers though.

Ben Bova's Grand Tour novels took a massive dip after Saturn or Titan.

Christopher wrote: "Ron wrote: "Outside of this list Spin was a book I really enjoyed. I would have been very happy if it had been left as a stand alone boo..."

Ohhh....good one. I loved Spin, but the..."

I'd agree with that. Spin was great but the 2 follow-ups were definitely inferior. Its not that they were bad.... just dissapointing.

For those who have read the two Stormlight Archive books written so far: what do you think of the series so far, in light of the topic of this thread?

Words of Radiance is better than Way of Kings in my opinion. I still love tWoK so much, but WoR really showed Sanderson's growth as an author. I think that Sanderson has a good enough grasp on book building that we don't have to worry about largely inferior books being dropped throughout the series.

Words of Radiance is a significant improvement, I would say it took it from a 2.5-3 to a more solid 3.5

@Luke and Aaron, That was my impression too. Although, I enjoyed Mistborn, Elantris, even Steelheart, I feel Sanderson has come into his own with the Stormlight Archive, and I think he is so much better than anyone writing fantasy right now.

Hmmm, I think he is a better author now but Mistborn 1-3 is better. Because the way the plot is stuctured and how it didn't waste ANY of my time. Epic fantasy in general tends to plod along entirely too much and Sandersons stuff is no execption. I still have a lot of problems with his writing which tends to be revealed more in epic fantasy like Stormlight, but in the end I agree with you just because I can't think of any currently running fantasy series I'm super excited about.

I actually thought that Mistborn was slightly slower overall, but that's just me. I liked Mistborn, but I LOVE SA.

Dropped in quality: Ender's Game
Improved in quality: October Daye

Aaron wrote: "Hmmm, I think he is a better author now but Mistborn 1-3 is better. Because the way the plot is stuctured and how it didn't waste ANY of my time. Epic fantasy in general tends to plod along entir..."

Honestly I don't think Sanderson IS wasting any time in the SA series. He is a very meticulous planner and I would hazard a guess that all those interludes and backstories we get will be integrated masterfully into the main thrust of action. I have a feeling we have already met on the characters that will be focused on in the subsequent books (likely in the back five).

Until he proves me wrong, in Sanderson I trust.

Mike wrote: "Until he proves me wrong, in Sanderson I trust."

Don't make me laugh like that again, my boss will start to get suspicious, lol. I can't guarantee that I won't completely steal that line :P