The Sword and Laser discussion

My library has a six-volume compilation of the Dresden files. I've been thinking that this constitutes a story arc, but as I finish book 5, it doesn't look like a wrap up is coming.

Are there story arcs to the Dresden Files? Or is it more like an ongoing serial?

John (Taloni) wrote: "My library has a six-volume compilation of the Dresden files. I've been thinking that this constitutes a story arc, but as I finish book 5, it doesn't look like a wrap up is coming.

Are there stor..."

It gets more and more arc-y as it goes. I admit, I'm beginning to hope Butcher wraps it up soon. I'm starting to have trouble remembering the sum total of the continuity, especially when there's like a year's gap between books. And the overall power creep is starting to get silly.

I think he has said there are about a 1/2 dozen left to go, including the grand finally trilogy.

It starts out more stand alone/serial style, but it then starts really building on itself and turning into one tighter arc.

His plan, last I read, was for an approx 20 book series. Unfortunately he's starting to be George RR Martiny and forsaking the series for other projects. First Codex Alera and now some sort of Steampunk series. Each book is about 90% standalone in plot though a lot of the subplots involving supporting characters won't make any sense without what came before.

Totally different. He writes the other series more or less to clear his palate. When he wasn't writing them he *lost* productivity; with them, he got it back.

I see my library has 7-12 on ebook as well, plus two other books. I'm well set to read all of them. I'll probably take a lengthy break from Dresden after the 6th book though. The endless gore of the vampire storyline is getting me down. I like the inventive use of the Courts to describe the different kinds of being wrapped under the term "vampire," but it's still grossing me out.

Also be advised that the first Dresden book was literally the first book Butcher ever wrote. As such it has flaws. Butcher himself says the series doesn't really get good in his opinion until book four or so. I have to agree. I read the first book and was underwhelmed and only got back to the series later via audiobook as I spend a ton of time driving at work so I'm always desperate for audiobooks. I did the rest of the series via audiobook which was excellent and I'd highly recommend as all but one are narrated by James Marsters (Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer) who does a very good job.

It's funny, Rik, I recognized those early-author flaws and liked the book fine anyway. Yes, there were ridiculous parts. It was still fun enough to enjoy. The later ones so far are definitely more involved, more complicated and show more writerly craft, but also show less sheer joy in the story. I can tell Butcher had a blast writing the first three and his enthusiasm brought me along.

James Marsters has apparently now done the one book he'd missed.

Serendi wrote: "James Marsters has apparently now done the one book he'd missed."

That would be awesome. There was probably nothing wrong with the one the other guy did except it was very jarring after 9-10 books of Marsters (which I did back to back to back . . .) to suddenly hear a new voice doing all the voices differently. I know it was a later book, book 11 or 12 probably, that the other guy did. Marsters was apparently unavailable at the time it needed to be recorded.

Based on a suggestion by a freind, I went into that book knowing it was a differant reader, but because of Harry's condition in that book, I just kept thinking that was why he sounded differant. It worked pretty good. But I was glad to hear Masters On the next one.

John (Nevets) wrote: "Based on a suggestion by a freind, I went into that book knowing it was a differant reader, but because of Harry's condition in that book, I just kept thinking that was why he sounded differant. It..."

I actually started listening to the series with Side Jobs: Stories From the Dresden Files, right after I read Changes. I liked the way Marsters did the secondary characters, but I had read 12 Dresden Files novels in print and Marsters didn't sound anything like Harry did in my head. Novel-wise, I picked up the seriesin audio with Ghost Story. To me, John Glover sounded like my head Harry, but he wasn't as good with the other characters. I've listened to the subsequent novels and I do like James Marster's narrations very much, but he still isn't my head Harry.

John (Nevets) wrote: "Based on a suggestion by a freind, I went into that book knowing it was a differant reader, but because of Harry's condition in that book, I just kept thinking that was why he sounded differant. It..."

I quite liked John Glover's narration and I think the only problem with it was that literally every other book had been read by Marsters (though I didn't object when Audible gave me the Marsters version for free). Glover was a little closer to my imagined Harry but I really had gotten used to James (though I think the early books aren't his best work).

I thought Glover is a fine narrator, but not a good fit for the series. To me Marsters IS Harry Dresden. I enjoyed the new version better.

I'm afraid it's going to be never ending. I've seen at least one natural stop come and go with no end in site. Given the nature of the series, I'm sure Butcher could continue on indefinitely.

I decided that I was done after book 12, as it was a natural stop for me. The reasons why it felt like a good end to Harry's story are spoilery, but the sum of it is that it felt like there was enough of a wrap up of events, especially events introduced in book one, that the story was complete. Sure there were unknown mysteries that I'm sure Butcher is exploring in the later books, but I'm not really interested in them. Because to me, Harry's story is done.

^Thanks Melani. I downloaded the book 7-12 compilation from my library and am on book 7 now. Twelve will probably be plenty. I've already had enough of vampires and it looks like they're prominent in this one.

Melani who wanders and is lost wrote: "I'm afraid it's going to be never ending. I've seen at least one natural stop come and go with no end in site. Given the nature of the series, I'm sure Butcher could continue on indefinitely.

I de..."

The final story arc is a planned trilogy, and it's soonish, he mentioned which book sometime but I forget.

Aaron wrote: "Melani who wanders and is lost wrote: "I'm afraid it's going to be never ending. I've seen at least one natural stop come and go with no end in site. Given the nature of the series, I'm sure Butche..."

So I've heard. I'm not sure I believe it though. But it doesn't really matter to me, I've already reached the end of the story so far as I'm concerned.

And John, I am DEFINITELY interested in seeing if you agree with me or no. Because most people hear that I stopped there and are aghast.

Melani who wanders and is lost wrote: "Aaron wrote: "Melani who wanders and is lost wrote: "I'm afraid it's going to be never ending. I've seen at least one natural stop come and go with no end in site. Given the nature of the series, I..."

I went to book 13 and am done with the series as well. 12 was a great wrap up and I should have stopped there. 13 was a bit of a disappointment for me, and I don't feel any desire to keep reading.

Sky wrote: "I went to book 13 and am done with the series as well. 12 was a great wrap up and I should have stopped there. 13 was a bit of a disappointment for me, and I don't feel any desire to keep reading..."

Oh, I'm glad it's not just me.

I wonder if it's a problem with Urban Fantasy in general though. Where the author reaches one conclusive ending and decides to keep going. I'm pretty sure that Seanan McGuire has done it with the October Daye books, though I will continue to read those forever.

Or, another example, I finally got around to reading the Kate Daniels books by Ilona Andrews, and I read up to the most recently published book Magic Breaks and realized it's a very natural stopping point for the series. It's going to continue, and I even know what plot line they'll continue on with, but that book 7 is a good stopping point.

It's hard for me to tell a working writer how to make a living, but I'm glad to vote with my feet. I followed through the many Ringworld / Known Space sequels and all it did was cheapen the original.

Personally I think 13 isn't as good, but 14 and 15 were both excellent. I think those of you who quit early are missing out, but if you're going to stop early, 12 is probably the best place to do it.

If by 13 you all mean Ghost Story it's a transitional book. 14 and 15 pick things up nicely.

The story arcs I am most invested in aren't necessarily Harry's anymore. There are so many other characters in the Dresden'verse that I care about and want to follow. Still enjoying the ride with Harry, but it has been a long time since he was the main reason I'm still reading the series.

If I am starting to get annoyed with Harry and dislike him, will books 14 and 15 make it all better? Or are the books in the same direction but better plots? I can't really describe it but harry is starting too feel too preachy to me. Does this quality of him get stronger or go away in subsequent books? It could also be I was just in an annoyed mood when I read it and small things bothered me - who knows.

I cannot fathom stopping reading The Dresdenverse after book 12. Cannot. I liked Ghost Story but it was a very different book. Cold Days and Skin Game are both excellent.

Jim is planning on writing about 22 of the case file books and topping that off with an Apocalyptic Trilogy.

Quit if you wish but I cannot.

Frank wrote: "I cannot fathom stopping reading The Dresdenverse after book 12. Cannot. I liked Ghost Story but it was a very different book. Cold Days and Skin Game are both excellent.

Jim is planning on writi..."

That is the typical reaction I get when I tell people I stopped reading them after 12. But I just see the story as complete after 12. It's a good ending and one I don't need to see beyond. I didn't quit, I stopped reading because the story no longer called to me. It's quite different.

AS for the original topic - there are arcs that appear throughout some of which are resolved, some (currently) aren't. As Melani notes you can consider 12 a conclusion even though it's not since it closes one story arc.

@sky - I don't find Harry annoying, so can't help you. After the events of 12 he obviously changes (Ghost Story is the transitional book that starts some of these changes).

Rick wrote: "@sky - I don't find Harry annoying, so can't help you. After the events of 12 he obviously changes (Ghost Story is the transitional book that starts some of these changes). "

It was specifically the changes in Ghost Story that annoyed me, so if the changes are in the same vein then most likely it will continue to annoy me. Like Melani said, I just don't feel compelled to keep reading.

well, then don't. I mean, it's not a life altering decision. You can try the next book and see if you like it or not but I'm kind of not sure why it's worth any time spent agonizing over. Most libraries have it so if you're unsure, check out 14 and read a bit. Like it? Keep going. Don't like it? Stop.

This probably sounds grumpy but too often people treat a decision like this as if it's weighty and it's just not.

Book 12 of Dresden Files was a good stopping point, it's very much the end of the first overall arc of the series. I'm still reading it and really enjoy the series but I can certainly see stopping on 12, maybe depending on how good the final books of the series are I would pressure people to finish the series but Changes is still by far the best Dresden book and the ending could certainly work.

FWIW at book 7 I am on serious overload for the violence and general creepiness of the subject matter. I think I'll finish up 7 and let it go for a while. I read a lot at night due to insomnia so am always good for a block of reading, but binge reading this is getting a little too depressing. Time to mix in Time and Again, a Discworld book or two, some hard SF if I can find some easily. Then back to endless vampire killing.

Rick wrote: "well, then don't. I mean, it's not a life altering decision. You can try the next book and see if you like it or not but I'm kind of not sure why it's worth any time spent agonizing over. Most libr..."

I'm not complaining and treating it as like a life or death choice. I am perfectly content not to read any more Dresden Files - there are a lifetime of great books out there. I was just generally curious if the books keep going in the direction I felt it was going (and which annoyed me) - without spending the effort of actually reading them. I learned the hard way powering through 9 books of Sword of Truth and know now how to give up and be happy, believe me.

I suppose now that I dont plan to read anymore I can just google it and not worry about spoilers.

And since I already seem to be offending people, I might as well just throw out that I am getting sick of Sanderson too and will probably stop reading any more of his stuff.

Sky wrote: And since I already seem to be offending people, I might as well just throw out that I am getting sick of Sanderson too and will probably stop reading any more of his stuff. ..."

I kind of agree with you. I keep reading his books, and they're ok but nothing world breaking. Will probably finish Stormlight Archive, but I'm not tensely awaiting the next one.

@sky - I find the books pretty easy to read and so if I were on the fence, I'd just have read 14 to see whether I liked the new direction or not and it's a small enough investment of time that I'd not have worried about it.

The thing is, it's hard for anyone to tell someone we only know online and not well whether a book will appeal to them or not, so I default to "try it yourself, I liked it" for those questions. Sorry if I annoyed you.

Rick wrote: "@sky - I find the books pretty easy to read and so if I were on the fence, I'd just have read 14 to see whether I liked the new direction or not and it's a small enough investment of time that I'd ..."

No worries :) Thanks for the advice! I might pick them up some time next year if the mood strikes, or I may just leave it be - we'll see!

John (Nevets) wrote: "Based on a suggestion by a freind, I went into that book knowing it was a differant reader, but because of Harry's condition in that book, I just kept thinking that was why he sounded differant. It..."

Perhaps that's Bob in your head instead of Harry :-)

Long ago I read something to the effect that writers create a hero, give him a problem, then tie one hand behind his back--and sometimes two. My problem with the Dresden series is that Harry has become so powerful so fast that he seems to have both hands free. I will continue reading the series, but find it less interesting the more powerful Harry becomes.

I see what you mean, Lucky. To me, the core of the later books (post-Ghost Story) is (view spoiler)[that Harry's the Winter Knight and has to find some way out of that either by shedding the mantle without dying, countering its effects or something. It's a 'power corrupts, absolute power...' story, basically. (hide spoiler)]

In some ways, though, I miss the wizard detective of the early stories too.

Melani who wanders and is lost wrote: "I wonder if it's a problem with Urban Fantasy in general though. Where the author reaches one conclusive ending and decides to keep going..."
There's a problem with any successful writer, in that they're pressured to keep putting out more books that people love. This can lead authors to continue past their original stopping point, needing to dream up further story elements.

I seem to remember reading an interview that said the Kate Daniels books hit such a point, though I do like the latest books. Dresden Files is different in that Butcher has had this story arc going all along, though some may say it's overly ambitious in length.

Any series has many logical stopping points (end of any book) but there's a difference between carrying an arc and starting a new one. I did hear Butcher talk about his theory for how a series should be laid out though, and it did seem to me to amount to him saying that a series of length X should frequently be broken into roughly X/3 segments (segments don't have to be same length). This then gives any series three logical quitting points (such as book 12).

Serendi wrote: "Totally different. He writes the other series more or less to clear his palate. When he wasn't writing them he *lost* productivity; with them, he got it back."

Agreed. I'm not sure if the steampunk will actually get him writing faster, but the Codex Alera showed that writing a second series doesn't have to slow him down.

I've been in since the beginning (though not at the beginning), and the mythos/mega-arc went from thrilling to sort of tedious and bloated. The first third of Skin Game was so nice because it was back to Harry and Karrin just working a case. It was such refreshing return not just to the basics, to the early books, but a refreshing break from the mega-arc that has turned it from a wizard private eye series to a superhero and gods series. Of course, it got superhero and god-y later int he novel, but for those few chapters, it was good to see the old Dresden and Karrin again.

That said, I have enjoyed them all. Some more than others, but I've never been angry at the end, like I was before I gave up on Wheel of Time, or like I was about A Dance with Dragons.