Support for Indie Authors discussion

I've just had my editor mark up my nth draft of my third novel. A whole lot colourful too with lots of reds and yellows. Don't get me wrong. I agree with my editor, even if it is a bit painful. But where I'm struggling with are the PoV. Too many PoV changes in a single chapter. Does anyone have any views on what would be optimal? All suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

One POV per chapter (or scene).

Hard to say, but maybe you're not fully exploring each scene with enough detail for the reader to become immersed before being suddenly jerked out of it and placed into another. Each scene has to be worth the reader's time, or it may not belong in the story. On the other hand, if these are action scenes that you're cutting in and out of, and each scene advances the plot, it may only be the editor's particular likes and dislikes that are showing. Maybe you could try it with another reader before writing it to the editor's wishes.

Not much to add to the two excellent comments (by Martin and Ken), other than to stress the fact that every POV shift causes the reader to pause mentally. Too many pauses, and it's time for a trip to the refrigerator for a sandwich. Reader puts the book down. Not a good thing.

Are you using scene breaks? That helps.

Martin, Ken and Charles thanks for your inputs. Having seen the colourful version from my editor, I doing exactly what Martin has suggested, one PoV per chapter in the novel I've just started. But that still leaves me in the same position with my previous one. @Charles - I'm trying to write the romance of the century, (I'm afraid I don't know the emoticon for laughing at myself but this is definitely in jest!) I'd hate my reader to leave the hero and heroine at tenterhooks for a trip to the fridge. Perhaps what I need to do is use my scalpel on the current version and seek a reader's view.

I say there is no set number. I tend to jump around, as I write from a 3rd person omnipotent pov, like a god staring into the characters head.
POV jumping isn't necessarily bad, if it fits the context of the story. The reason why just needs to make sense.

India wrote: "Does anyone have any views on what would be optimal? All suggestions would be greatly appreciated."

This is one of those things you can't really put a hard, fast rule on. Some stories work best with one point of view, some work best with two or three, some work with multiple points of view.

I am curious, though. If it's painful, why do you agree with the editor? I would be paying attention to that pain. Writing should not become painful.

India wrote: "I've just had my editor mark up my nth draft of my third novel. A whole lot colourful too with lots of reds and yellows. Don't get me wrong. I agree with my editor, even if it is a bit painful. But..."

One 1st person POV per chapter.

If you're writing in 3rd person omniscient (limited or not), then one POV per scene -- and be very careful to make it clear whose POV it is.

I think the best advice is one POV per chapter. I violated that in my first novel, but in my second novel I am keeping it to one POV per chapter. (1st person). This has become the standard practice.

In my first book, I shifted pov because I wanted the reader to know what the person in the scene was thinking about the time-traveling slave (the essence of her shimmering skin, her strange gentleness, etc). Since she wasn't aware of those things, the other characters had to inform the reader about them. For my second one, I kept it strictly to one pov, because I wanted the reader to take the confused journey with the main character. As for the first, some readers didn't like the switches, but since I did it for a specific intent, that's perfectly okay with me.

There is no rule to go by. This is a stylistic choice.

Many books head hop within the same paragraph. It's something that when done well, can provide a lot more insight. Staying in one head has limitations. Sometimes, these limitations are good for plot purposes. Other times they can be a pain.

I personally have a series now where each chapter is a single perspective, which was a lot if fun for book one, but now in book four I'm ready to do something else. Next book is going to be third person with hops when needed.

I usually write in the 3rd person, and always when there are multiple POVs. You can have more than one POV per chapter if the chapter has more than one scene, but my rule is to use only one POV per scene. I've seen head hopping by some authors, and it works if skillfully done, but when I'm reading I generally prefer that the author pick a character and stay with it for the whole scene.

Dwayne wrote: "India wrote: "Does anyone have any views on what would be optimal? All suggestions would be greatly appreciated."

This is one of those things you can't really put a hard, fast rule on. Some storie..."

Having crafted a two hundred word spiel on monogamous relationships, it is not easy to accept that it needs to be pared down. Writing is not painful but letting someone take the scalpel to my creations is painful.

There's no rule that says a novel even has to have chapters or characters, or plot, or anything. It typically does, but don't box yourself in if you don't have to.

But the reader must be kept in mind when doing things like head-hopping, if you want it to be read and enjoyed.

Charles wrote: "There's no rule that says a novel even has to have chapters or characters, or plot, or anything. It typically does, but don't box yourself in if you don't have to.

But the reader must be kept in m..."

This is exactly what I believe. Perfect way to put it Charles.

Christina wrote: "There is no rule to go by. This is a stylistic choice.

Many books head hop within the same paragraph. It's something that when done well, can provide a lot more insight. Staying in one head has l..."

Head-hopping within the same scene or even paragraph to me is taking the easy way out as an author, but it ultimately depends on the audience you are writing for, and what you are writing, and the experience you are trying to convey.

I enjoy trapping the reader inside of the head of one character at a time, the downside to that is non-pov characters can seem flat and undeveloped.

Did your editor give you any context/reason, i.e.: reads too much like a screenplay; lacks transitions; character not well enough established to switch points of view? If so, I would suggest taking the advice. Movies have influenced writing, not always for the better, and I think some writers are writing with that in mind; however visuals are one thing and a lot can be done in 2 seconds; a book is different.

I like different points of view, but if the changes are too fast/frequent they can appear frivolous.

Charles wrote: "Head-hopping within the same scene or even paragraph to me is taking the easy way out as an author, but it ultimately depends on the audience you are writing for, and what you are writing, and the experience you are trying to convey.

I enjoy trapping the reader inside of the head of one character at a time, the downside to that is non-pov characters can seem flat and undeveloped."

Oh believe me, it is not always easy. Conversely, with my current project I end up with the Pulp Fiction effect wherein the same scene gets played out from a different perspective. That too can get old after a while.

I avoid that at all costs. I had an issue with the end of the one I'm writing now where I had to split a chapter up, and move a later chapter into the middle of it just to keep things working correctly. They still worked the other way, but it felt like I was doing a flashback when the chapter picked up at a point that had already been gone through. I would choose the PoV that is the most important to convey that scene with, and gloss through it with the others, if you don't slice and dice with scene breaks. I may end up doing some of that if I don't extend the shorter chapters on the rewrite. Gonna try to avoid it, but I try to do what's best for the reader ultimately.

In the end, the climactic PoV came from a character I never intended to convey it.

I've seen some head hopping that was so bad I couldn't tell which character was thinking and/or saying what. Changing POV takes a lot of skill to pull off successfully. You must do it very mindfully.

Meh, I don't think head hopping is necessarily taking the easy way out, if dine right. I head hop in my zombie apoc story, but it makes sense in the context of the book and adds to the atmosphere imo.
Not to mention, it can be tough to convey different voices of characters when you head hop, and it can add to the challenge.
As long as it makes sense in the context of the story, it shouldn't be a problem.

Christina wrote: "There is no rule to go by. This is a stylistic choice.

Many books head hop within the same paragraph. It's something that when done well, can provide a lot more insight. Staying in one head has l..."

@Christina In my previous novels, I've used two PoVs within the same chapter. I think it is key that the reader understands what makes the characters tick. Obviously not too many hoppings as this would be confusing. I s'pose it is striking the right balance. :)

You just don't want the reader to ever have to figure out who's head they are in, which breaks the flow.

If I change PoV within the same chapter, I use a section break (~*~*~)to signify that. Some authors can pull it off within one section, but my books are primarily told from one or two PoVs, not all of them, so I break them up.

India wrote: "@Christina In my previous novels, I've used two PoVs within the same chapter. I think it is key that the reader understands what makes the characters tick. Obviously not too many hoppings as this would be confusing. I s'pose it is striking the right balance. :)"

Two characters definitely seems to work best, especially if there's some sort of tension or miscommunication going on, but you as the author are not trying for misdirection.

More than that and yes, you do walk a fine line, but I would say it isn't impossible. I've seen a few great examples of this recently and the key is a good narrative style. It's not dissimilar to the concept of a three or more party conversation. Those can get tricky when the author decides to just drop a page worth of dialog without tags. Same principle applies. When you've got a bunch of active characters in a scene, it might be best to avoid words like 'he' and 'she'.

It depends on the story you are trying to tell. Hemingway and Fitzgerald made great use of POV by taking some very calculated (and carefully controlled) steps away from the conventional use of POV to meet their stories' unique narrative needs. There's a great discussion on POV as narrative distance from the character by David Jauss, in: Alone with All That Could Happen--Rethinking Conventional Wisdom on the Craft of Fiction Writing, Chapter II, From Long Shots to X-Rays: Distance and Point of View in Fiction.

POV is definitely a stylistic issue. With this being stated, one reader/editor might not like what another reader/editor may love. If you lose the interest of readers because it becomes messy, then the POV is wrong. Notice the word: readers, as being plural. If many people find it difficult to read the story because of the POV, then it might need a revision.

One, or two people saying the POV is not cohesive, this does not mean it isn't actually working. It just means it doesn't work for them. We are creatures of habit. This applies to our preferred reading criteria as well.

My first book has reviews reflecting this very thing. How do I know if the POV works? Answer: the majority are fine with it - some even prefer it.

As a general rule, I break up POV with a line break, or by chapter. Scene changes are a strong indicator that the line break or chapter change must be used in order to shorten the pause readers experience from POV switches. This is my own preference because it is my style with this particular series.

My second book has chapters with five to six multiple POV's switching back and forth. Action sequences can really push up this number if a lot of characters are involved. This occurrence happens because of the style I choose to write in. None of my Beta readers even made mention of the POV as being an issue. But I am willing to bet my bottom dollar that someone will down the line. We are all creatures of habit.

Again, if a lot of people have trouble reading because the POV is disruptive, then a revision might be warranted. If it is one or two, then it could very well be related to personal preference - just something to keep an eye on.

I asked several people to read my WIP a year ago, having not written creatively in a long time. ALL were critical of the head-hopping and imbued me with the ethic.
I think it is an important discipline. Changing POV may be entirely necessary but cannot be capricious. Reading my own before and after I reduced POV, the difference is amazing.
The distinction is cumulative. I reduced change of POV to nothing less than 1500 words, and the narrative became less "noisy" and more forward-paced.
I believe that my writing has improved immensely once I became aware of reducing POV shifts.

I prefer to write from one POV per chapter, but as long as the reader can easily follow what is going on, there's absolutely nothing wrong with having as many as you want.

It's certainly a matter of taste/style, but the more POVs you have, the less immersive the story becomes. My rule is to keep it to the minimum necessary to tell the story.

Constant head-hopping makes me fling a book across the room, but many readers wouldn't care at all. I think there's some confusion in this thread about head-hopping and multiple POVs. however. Multiple POVs are fine if handled well; head-hopping is often an indication that the scene could be written better.

Steve wrote: "I prefer to write from one POV per chapter, but as long as the reader can easily follow what is going on, there's absolutely nothing wrong with having as many as you want."

I'm the same as Steve, I write 3rd person POV but with each chapter being from another characters overall perspective. I find it adds depth to the story instead of having a 1st person POV the whole story.

I do know not to change the POV in mid chapter, some authors can pull it off but I'm not one of them.

As a reader I'm comfortable with a head-hop when the prots are separated by some distance and have distinct points of view on the action. If the prots are directly interacting, then a head-hop messes up my immersion in the story as I try to sort out the who-dat.

I tried two POVs in my latest work, but kept them very separate. Prot #1 was in 1st person & Prot #2 in 3rd person. The POVs broke very nicely into a 3-part novel, each part given a title to make it easier for the reader to shift.

It not only depends on the kind of story you're writing, but also the density and pace of the scenes you're writing.

If there is important, quick-paced, action going on, more head hopping might be required in order to develop the entire scene, to fill the reader in on everything going on.

The important thing is to one way or another keep the reader aware of who's POV we're in. For example, try to avoid beginning new POV with dialog. Even if you use a text break, starting with dialog instantly makes the read go "wait...who's this? Where are we? What's going on?"

BUT before you go through all that, before you even think of jumping POVs, I'd ask myself if it's really necessary. Why are you head hopping? Is it absolutely necessary to get the point of the story through to the reader, or is it just for completeness sake? It's often better to leave the reader in the dark on some things than to give them all information.

Also, I think that multiple POV/head hopping is a style of writing that has fallen out of fashion to a large degree. When Frank Herbert wrote Dune, it was radical and exciting. When I re-read that book a year or so ago, I found it rather out of date. So just keep in mind that modern readers may have less tollerance for it than they once did.

Thanks all for your valuable feedback. I have realised that need to edit my novel...I can't remember if it is the eighth or tenth time!

Micah wrote: "It not only depends on the kind of story you're writing, but also the density and pace of the scenes you're writing.

If there is important, quick-paced, action going on, more head hopping might be..."

It takes a certain amount of patience to not pour everything all at once onto a single page.

I agree with Martin "One POV per chapter (or scene)." Anything more can be confusing to the reader.

However, I started one chapter in first person and switched to third for the rest of the chapter when it became evident I was going to be switching scenes often and my narrator would not be present for many of them.

I keep absolutely to one POV per scene. But I may have more than one scene in a chapter. Again, it's a stylistic choice. I think it boils down to this--if the reader becomes confused about who's speaking you have a problem. If not, you don't. And I agree with all the above comments about the fact that POV shifts must be mindfully, carefully approached.
My first drafts just flow whichever way they want. Then my writer's group harpoons me (or I re-read and say "ouch') and I rewrite.

Charles wrote: "Then my writer's group harpoons me"

Hahahaha, I know the feeling!