One Year In Search of Lost Time ~ 2015 discussion

Will you be rereading ISOLT when this cycle is finished?

Susan wrote: "Will you be rereading ISOLT when this cycle is finished?"

Yes; however, no relation to Sisyphus.

Haha, good one, Marcelita.
I very likely will join (or create) new year's goodreads Proust group.

I will no doubt re-read ISOLT at some point but I personally don't see the point in re-reading in straight after the first reading.

I think it would be a great idea to have a group dedicated to people re-reading ISOLT. If the discussions were separated by book/section/ etc rather than by a date then anyone re-reading it could add to the discussion at any point. Of course if people then wanted to re-read as a group to a timetable then they could choose to do so.

I'm not sure how someone could not reread ISOLT immediately after the first reading. (view spoiler)[I would go even further and say that it's the only book I've ever read in which the ending dictates a return to the beginning. You haven't read it once unless you've turned back to the beginning and started reading it again. I'll be arguing this point pretty vigorously in our discussions in the last volume. (hide spoiler)] I finished it for the first time last December and immediately returned to the beginning. I'd probably join a reread this year too. At the very least, I think Proust may be someone who I never want to not be reading. There are a handful of other works that I reread nearly every year. The only difference is it doesn't usually take an entire year to reread Hamlet. I'd like to read it with a group again but eventually I might settle into a 2 year repeated reading schedule.

The only thing that might keep me from following along with next year's group is the fact that I'd like to read The Man Without Qualities and the 3 novels of James Joyce in the same year-long, little-by-little style.

Yeah, I just read someone's post on goodreads who said that you haven't really read Proust until you've read him twice.

The Man Without Qualities is also on my list, would be nice to have a year-long reading group for that too (though i guess demand would be lower than for Proust).

I also re-read immediately and had a great time with it. But I also have a lot of friends who would rather save it for later. I think it's just personal taste.

Oh, and I'd definitely join a The Man Without Qualities read..

Jonathan wrote: "I think it would be a great idea to have a group dedicated to people re-reading ISOLT...."

Oh, that would be so grand...but only for those readers who have read the novel at least twice and appreciate Proust's brilliant construction and layering.

For us Proustians, 'the weeds' may not be enough, as we sometimes find ourselves 'in the roots,' delving inside a particularly exquisite passage.

(view spoiler)["And I understood that all these materials for a work of literature were simply my past life; I understood that they had come to me, in frivolous pleasures, in indolence, in tenderness, in unhappiness, and that I had stored them up without divining the purpose for which they were destined or even their continued existence any more than a seed does when it forms within itself a reserve of all the nutritious substances from which it will feed a plant. Like the seed, I should be able to die once the plant had developed and I began to perceive that I had lived for the sake of the plant without knowing it, without ever realising that my life needed to come into contact with those books which I had wanted to write and for which, when in the past I had sat down at my table to begin, I had been unable to find a subject. And thus my whole life up to the present day might and yet might not have been summed up under the title: A Vocation." MP (hide spoiler)]

Ah, that's a high requirement, Marcelita, but I understand, I may join you at the start of 2016 then ;)
though i'm sure there would be enough hardcore Proustians for such a group, you'd just need to find and recruit them.

Simon wrote: "Ah, that's a high requirement, Marcelita, but I understand, I may join you at the start of 2016 then ;)
though i'm sure there would be enough hardcore Proustians for such a group, you'd just need t..."

Alas, listening now to the album "Let It Bleed."
@0:54
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oihT0i4...

I've started to wonder if we should start a permanent Proust group instead of a yearly read-through group. It could host yearly readings of ISOLT but also be a good place for other sources to compound instead of disappearing into years past, or lost time, as it were. What do you all think?

Sounds like a great idea. The decentralization of links and other resources in many groups pertaining to particular years definitely is a problem.
Hosting the yearly reads also sounds good. The only problem is recruiting readers for that. Groups like this one have the advantage that the group name immediately shows the current yearlong reading goal. But when the group becomes popular enough, people should find out about it.

We could put "yearly" or "annual" or something equivalent in either the title or immediately in the description. I think a few lines show up from the description when people search the groups.

Would it be best to use this group as a starting point? If we roll this over into 2016 it would immediately have greater legitimacy as an "All things Proust" group rather than starting from scratch. If we're hosting yearly reads anyway then it seems natural. I know some other groups, the 2013 in particular, have a larger membership but it seems mostly inactive. Also, it makes more sense to me not to have the gap between yearly reads.

I believe right around this time last year is when I first started this group and people started joining in late November. Not to get too far ahead of the purpose of this group - yes indeed, I'm nearly caught up to our schedule - but if we want to turn this group into a permanent meeting place for Proust reading and studies then it would be good to start on it.

Now to get caught up on our current threads!

Sounds good to me, turning this group into "All things Proust"! We just need a catchy name that also shows the annual reading. "All Things Proust" is a great start. Maybe something like "All Things Proust - 2016 Read"? Or maybe it's enough to have it in (the first few words of) the description?

I don't intend to reread immediately (so many other books, so little time), but think it is a great idea to turn this into an ongoing group.

I think it would be best to set up a separate 'Re-reading Proust' (or similar) group rather than re-use an existing one.

For what reason? You can put the discussions away into a "past discussions" or "2015" subforum.

Because then it would be an ongoing group dedicated to re-reading Proust rather than an addition to an existing group.

I don't think it's _only_ a group for rereading. It's intended to host yearly reads open to all readers. I don't see the disadvantage here.

I've just noticed that you changed the name of this group - won't that be confusing for anyone trying to find the 2015 group?

Why not drop the 2016 from the new title? If the group is now an ongoing group why have a date in the title?

I'm sorry if this all sounds like I'm nitpicking. I think it's a great idea to have an ongoing group dedicated to Proust especially for anyone who's re-reading ISOLT. I'll probably read 'Jean Santeuil' before I re-read ISOLT though. I started JS earlier this year but put it on hold until I could dedicate more time to it. Anyone else planning to read JS?

I don't think anyone new will be looking for a 2015 read through ISOLT.

I'm not married to the title. Personally I'd prefer dropping the date and making it clear at the beginning of the description that there's a current and an upcoming read through ISOLT.

I suspect a Re-reading (only) Proust group would have very little back-and-forth or active conversation. I suspect the back and forth will mostly come from people reading through it on a schedule. Of course, I can't be sure. I also think that yearly readers would benefit greatly from having resources compound each year rather than letting those resources be left to inactive groups. Admittedly, that's party because of my own GR activity. If I see that a group isn't currently active I don't join it or even browse through it. Maybe other people do.

The 2013 group, mostly moderated by Kalliope, but created by Proustitute, is not moderated anymore.
(Nine readers continue the conversation in a closed group.)

Several re-readers migrated to 2014 and 2015, dipping in and out when appropriate.

For those of us who re-read Proust continually, it would be wonderful to have an ongoing forum where we may marvel at the construction, peer through the layers, and look at the complete novel or passages through various lenses (threads): mythology, sleep/dreams, music, philosophy, photography, church architecture, French history/Dreyfus, sexuality, medicine, etc..

(Although ignorant, I have always been curious about the mathematical references in the novel: "Combray at a distance, from a twenty-mile radius....", the geometry of the steeples at Martinville, the "lunar year" passage, Morel's algebra lessons, etc..)

I would also vote for an additional group for new readers--2016.

Growing new Proustians, like orchids, is work. ;)
It calls for light encouragement in the beginning.
--Continual viligence against spoilers.
--Cognizant that new readers will be off track, but understanding that that is part of the process. They will learn over the course of the year...not to always trust what they read--what the characters say or what they see.

It may take awhile, maybe even a change in moderators, but eventually the new readers coalesce and the group develops it's own personality/voice.

Then, at the end of the year, as someone said to me, "They will join one of the most exclusive clubs in the world, where you cannot buy your way in, you must read your way in."

When you say "an additional group for new readers--2016" you mean a new group, right? A separate group for first time readers? I ask because I started this group and I've been one of the most active participants following the schedule but I'm not a new reader.

Yes, Jacob...and I have found your posts riveting!

(I would recommend keeping "2015" in this year's group name, for archival reasons. Over time, it is helpful to return to find a reference or an astute comment. Here is 2014: https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...)

The most helpful moderator(s) is a re-reader....who understands the "first-timers"' experience and keeps all the spoilers hidden. ;)

New readers become frustrated at the characters' behaviors and fooled (along with the Narrator), believing that what they are reading (seeing) is true. They make assumptions and are surprised, shocked, and rewarded at the revelations in "Time Regained."

It's a treat to follow their comment-path, as we once needed to read along the same path....and sadly, it can only be taken once.

Antoine Compagnon describes it as "reading innocently," without spoilers...the way Proust wanted it read.

Believing each group develops a unique cohesion, I tend to pop in to answer a question or share a reference.

(In my mind, the 2014 group was flavored with testosterone and humor; the 2013 group, with estrogen and art.)

Naturally, I will continue to hover over the first-time readers group, if there is one, and will enthusiastically post to the re-readers group, with all the spoilers exposed!

The cruelest thing is to ruin Marcel Proust's brilliantly constructed masterpiece with a spoiler along the way.

(Alas, that happened to my fellow Proustian, Nick. And although it's been many years since that searing spoiler experience while reading "The Fugitive," he recently commented on another site...expressing his disappointed anger at the unexpected revelation.)

Well I've cooled on the idea of continuing with a Proust group. I think what I'm really looking for is the next level in reading ISOLT which might not be a realistic ambition online. In end I may just stick to my own schedule. I've read it by myself before, I don't see why I shouldn't again. More then anything else, this group has been very good at keeping me on pace to reading ISOLT in one year.

So I'll reverse my recent changes to this group. I don't mind if someone here wants to take over this group for their own purposes.

Marcelita wrote: "(In my mind, the 2014 group was flavored with testosterone and humor; the 2013 group, with estrogen and art.) "

Ha! Ha! Brilliant Marcelita! But how would you describe the 2015 group? ;-)

Hahaha yes, excellent description of us!

Ha ha! Marcelita! I am new to Proust! I spent about ten years on page 1, and loved it, adored it and was terrified to lose the beauty of that intial enveloping of his world. Now I am nearing the end of Swann's Way, and what you say about being new, so TRUE! I am all confused about the shifting narrative, the shifting behaviours of the characters, recently even the spires and landscape at Combray seened to echo the confusing sexuality. It's all a bit of a whirlwind, so glad that you want to help us virgin Proustitutes in gently, it is harder than anything I have ever read, and it is such a relief to have found your sites, regardless of what they are called.

Jacob wrote: "Well I've cooled on the idea of continuing with a Proust group. I think what I'm really looking for is the next level in reading ISOLT which might not be a realistic ambition online. In end I may j..."

Disappointed to read this, Jacob.
I have found it is easier to discuss Proust online, as source and secondary material are readily available.

For example, I have always been curious about Swann's mother and her influence.
On Chris Taylor's website, there is a new, fascinating passage from one of Proust's notebooks. (Unlike many of the other pages from this notebook, Cahier 9, NAF 16649, Proust left these out of the novel.)

"Madame Swann"
http://www.yorktaylors.free-online.co...

Manuscript fragment from Cahier 9, NAF 16649
You can page through the whole notebook here.
Start: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1... ;
On page 48, Madame Swann: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1...


PS The "cognac passage," in Combray (page 32) http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1...

What will be the name of our re-reading Proust group? When will it begin?

The most obvious Proust re-reading group names would be "Finding Proust Again" "Proust Regained" or "Proust Retrouvé". I expect the French title wouldn't scare away any re-readers. But of course, these are the most obvious titles which isn't necessarily the best. One could go a similar route but vary it with "la Recherche Regained" or "la Recherche Retrouvé".

I still plan on starting over in January. My pace will depend on whether or not there's a group reading it according to a schedule. If not I might make it a 2 year read. If there is I'll manage to do it in a year again.

I'm not sure what a re-reading Proust group looks like without a scheduled read. Maybe a source/review aggregate with the possibility of interpretive/discussion threads? If I'm involved in something like this I'm sure I'll organize a scheduled read as well even if it doesn't include that much conversation. This group was a good motivator for me to keep reading even if I didn't write much along the way.

Marcelita, speaking of re-reading (yet again), I have a question for you: have you read the annotated editions by William C. Carter? I've been meaning to import both volumes but that would be really expensive. Only now I realized that they are available in Kindle editions, which makes it a lot more easier and convenient for me.

Jacob wrote: "The most obvious Proust re-reading group names would be "Finding Proust Again" "Proust Regained" or "Proust Retrouvé". I expect the French title wouldn't scare away any re-readers. But of course, t..."

Agree that it is important to have a schedule, and a two-year read would be wise, as the novel becomes more like a canyon, with the strata visible.

Reading more slowly, gives us time to pursue some of Proust's muses or follow a curiousity.

Several years ago, I read the Balzac novels that were the Baron's favorites: Lost Illusions, The Cabinet of the Antiquities, A Harlot High and Low, and The Girl with the Golden Eyes.

Now, I am thinking of reading Saint-Simon, but looking for an audio version. I may be forced to use the voice-over option on my walks.

A Proustian friend noticed that Proust pays homage to Montaigne.
On the first page,
"Thus, Reader, I am the subject of my own book; ..." Montaigne
https://archive.org/stream/essaysmich...

Proust: "...I myself was the immediate subject of my book:...."

and the last, which contains a spoiler, so I will save it for the re-readers group.

Not the territorial type, so any name would be fine, but "Finding Proust Again" reminds me of the many autobiographical facts that are chopped into pieces and placed in the ubiquitous kaleidoscope....and my own forgotten memories of various passages, that I read so differently in a subsequent cycle.

Renato wrote: "Marcelita, speaking of re-reading (yet again), I have a question for you: have you read the annotated editions by William C. Carter? I've been meaning to import both volumes but that would be reall..."

Yes, I like the annotations and the wide margins for my notes. Carter cleans up Scott Moncrieff's "British" usage, like "lift" and "motor car," using "elevator" and "automobile" instead. Nothing drastic, just crisper.

I have all the translations, except the complete Penguin (waiting for 2018, when the last volumes will be avaiable in the US).

For certain passages/sentences, I prefer different translations.
Like Scott Moncrieff's, "Oh joy of joys! it is morning." (Overture-Swann's Way)

"Quel bonheur ! c'est déjà le matin ! " Proust

Can you match?
1) "What happiness! it's already morning!"
2) "How fortunate, it's already morning!"
3) "Oh joy of joys! it is morning."
4) "What joy, it is already morning."
5) "Thank God, it is morning!"

A) Moncrieff
B) William C. Carter
C) Kilmartin and Enright
D) Lydia Davis
E) Google

Alas, if I read French, I wouldn't need to wonder, "Which is the closest to the feeling?"

The passage:
"I would lay my cheeks gently against the comfortable cheeks of my pillow, as plump and blooming as the cheeks of babyhood. Or I would strike a match to look at my watch. Nearly midnight. The hour when an invalid, who has been obliged to start on a journey and to sleep in a strange hotel, awakens in a moment of illness and sees with glad relief a streak of daylight showing under his bedroom door.

Oh, joy of joys! it is morning.

The servants will be about in a minute: he can ring, and some one will come to look after him. The thought of being made comfortable gives him strength to endure his pain. He is certain he heard footsteps: they come nearer, and then die away. The ray of light beneath his door is extinguished. It is midnight; some one has turned out the gas; the last servant has gone to bed, and he must lie all night in agony with no one to bring him any help." Marcel Proust (Scott Moncrieff)

E 1) "What happiness! it's already morning!"
D 2) "How fortunate, it's already morning!"
A 3) "Oh joy of joys! it is morning."
B 4) "What joy, it is already morning."
C 5) "Thank God, it is morning!"

Thank you, Marcelita, as always, for great information. I'm excited about reading a different translation (since I read twice in Portuguese) and to read Carter's notes.

I wanted to share with the GR Proustians something I found last night.

Totally ignorant regarding mathematics, I am unable to see the thread/layer clearly.

Obviously, there are neon lights at the beginning:

"Combray at a distance, from a twenty-mile radius, as we used to see it from the railway when we arrived there every year in Holy Week,..."

My favorite article, regarding mathematics:
"Proust's Referential Strategies and Interrelations of the Liberal and Visual Arts" by J. Theodore Johnson, Jr.
https://books.google.com/books?id=bH8...

Here is my discovery:
"La géométrie de Marcel Proust" by Jean Claude Dumoncel
http://www.snphi.org/index.php/proust...


English translations:
https://translate.google.com/translat...

Full article: https://translate.google.com/translat...


One day, I hope to find a Proust-mathematician to enlighten us.

Oh, just remembered...
I had read somewhere, several years ago, that a teacher asked his class to "plot out" the changing perspectives of the steeples of Martinville. I will search for it.

Marcelita, are you for real? lol You continue to amaze and delight me with your insightful and interesting posts!

I am again reading along with the group after a long hiatus following the death of our son in January.

Also, many thanks for all the great posts from everybody else.

M.R.

I do hope you repeat the reading of Proust again in 2016. I started Proust around June, so I haven't finished yet. However, I did buy and read Monsieur Proust's Library, which I found fascinating and extremely helpful. I wish I had read it before I started the first page of Swan's Way. The background information help to clarify so much for me. I highly recommend it and I do hope you continue with Proust.

Thanks for the reminder on Proust's Library, seems like a great companion for the reread with its few 141 pages. I hope i'll have Paintings in Proust then, too.

I read the first page for 12 years. I got so engrossed in the roots, and I do not skim over the story now, lost for days in a page. I don't see your group so much as a re-read, as a world of hands to hold, and fingers of thought to stroke on the journey.....over and over.....I follow, I am such a novice, can there be a look but don't touch element of your group? Like those who have taken 12 years to get so far, but haven't finished so can't re-read per say...like a listen but don't speak until you are spoken to kind of element. Is that too voyeuristic. I don't see how there can be spoilers, I could read this forever.

Heh, sure, that's a pretty unique perspective you have! Lurking is fine anyways, and actually you could make a thread about just the first page of ISOLT or something.