Catholic Thought discussion

Manny wrote: "My only criticism was that it felt they were looking at Catholic beliefs and practices as if we were some remote culture under an anthropological study."

Unfortunately that happens all too often.

I am not surprised at what you read. NYT has regularly shown me editorial biases on issues on which I hold politically incorrect opinions. That is why I stopped reading it a couple decades ago though I follow current events regularly from a variety of other news sources.

Galicius wrote: "I am not surprised at what you read. NYT has regularly shown me editorial biases on issues on which I hold politically incorrect opinions. That is why I stopped reading it a couple decades ago thou..."

Oh me too, decades ago. That article was highlighted at New Advent, which is a Catholic news feed site. That's how I came across it. Not only is the NT Times Editorial not to my liking, but their articles are usually pretty slanted as well. Objective journalism has long died and impossible to find. The news sources I choose may also be slanted, but I prefer to read my slant versus one against me.

Pope Leo XIII in his Encyclical letter “Rerum Novarum” of May 15, 1891 wrote: “the family has at least equal rights with the State in the choice and pursuit of the things needful to its preservation and its liberty.” We have today a political and economic warfare of words that may lead to larger consequences from the EU European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen who personally issued a rebuke of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán’s government after the country’s parliament approved a law banning the portrayal of homosexuality to minors. “The European Parliament and the European Commission want that we let LGBTQ activists and organizations into the kindergartens and schools. Hungary does not want that,” Orban said.

The EU also demands greater rights for lesbians, gays, bisexual and transgender people in a largely Catholic nation of Poland which considers this a dangerous “ideology” threatening the country’s traditional identity. Poland’s member of the EU Parliament Patryk Jaki gave an honest and to the point response in this issue to the EU Parliament on 7 July 2021:

“Well, you pretend, as usual, that this whole discussion is about tolerance for LGBT people, but as you know, there is less violence against LGBT people in Poland than in your countries and your own statistics show that but you deliberately lie so that people don't know what truly is going on. The point is that we believe there are two genders and you think there are some 250. Biology is on our side and you think it's a scandal. We want to prohibit suggesting to children the possibility of changing their gender. You want to promote it. After all, we do not want the early sexualization of children in schools, because for Catholics, true love is much more than a desire. The effects of these anti-values of yours can be seen - the growing number of broken families, lonely people, sexual violence. You throw away the science, experience and achievements of generations to the garbage can and change them into your political beliefs exactly according to what Marx and Engels said that in order to build a new reality it is necessary to destroy traditional values and traditional family. You are following exactly the same path that will lead to the tragedy in Europe and you still believe that the violation of human rights is to defend the values on which Schuman built Europe. Shame!”

(I hope this is not too political for this group but I think it is a very loud and significant issue that would get a completely whitewashed or “politically correct” coverage if it even was reported in our media.)

It is political Galicius. Even if we all agree, the nature of political discussions can get corrosive. It's not just a question of disputes between people who disagree. The sort of echo chamber of agreement of political topics can be erosive to one's soul.

I don’t like to encourage divisive subjects, but we have discussed some in the past, and perhaps we should discuss this issue that has come up in the Catholic world, that is, Pope Frances trying to stamp out The Latin Mass. You probably remember back in July that Pope Francis put out a Moto Proprio, “Traditionis Custodes,” essentially limiting the use of the Latin Mass. This was in fact an overturning of Pope Benedict’s XVI’s moto proprio, “Summorum Pontificum,” establishing on almost equal footing the Tridentine Mass (commonly called the Latin Mass, “TLM” for short) with the Vatican II Mass in the vernacular, commonly called the Novus Ordo. For traditionalist Catholics who revere the Latin Mass this was a direct attack on something they hold dear and really inspire their faith. The months since July things seemed to settle down. Traditionis Custodes essentially made it more difficult to celebrate TLM, but still gave Bishops the authority to allow it within their dioceses, and so where it had been thriving those Bishops mostly chose not to interfere.

This week Pope Francis dictated that TLM could not be used to celebrate any of the sacraments except communion. Well, you can’t ban communion from a Mass and still call it a Mass, so he couldn’t do anything about that. But eliminating the use of TLM from the other sacraments (1) revived the animosity between the traditionalists and the Vatican and (2) made it clear Pope Frances was out to eliminate completely TLM from the Catholic Church.

I do not attend TLM. It’s not easy to find one near me, but anyway I do prefer the Novus Ordo. The Latin, like most foreign languages, does not register instantly in my brain, and I do feel more comfortable in the vernacular. Still I am angered. More than angered. This is an outrage. TLM is tradition. To destroy it is to “cancel” almost two thousand years of tradition. I know the form of the Tridentine Mass goes back to the Council of Trent (and that’s five hundred years in itself) but the Latin and the Ad orientem goes back to the second century. This was essentially how the Church Fathers prayed the Mass, including St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. It should remain an option. There are 24 other churches in communion with Rome that are allowed to celebrate in their own liturgical forms and their own languages. And yet the Roman Catholic Church cannot celebrate Mass in the language of the Romans? There is no division being created by the TLM. I see none, not even by the Liberal Catholics, as far as I can see. Who has objected? No one. It’s he and he only that has caused division.

It seems to me that Pope Francis is a vindictive, uncompromising, and uncharitable man. We have had enough of cancel culture in our secular society, but now we have it from the papacy? There was no problem to begin with. He feels the need to control and punish those he disagrees with. And frankly the contrast between what he did this week to those who revere TLM with the apology he offered to those in the LGBTQ community is striking. The devout he punishes, those that flout Christian morality he apologizes to. I’m flabbergasted.

Please feel free to offer your comments on this subject but in a respectful way.

Manny wrote: "I don’t like to encourage divisive subjects, but we have discussed some in the past, and perhaps we should discuss this issue that has come up in the Catholic world, that is, Pope Frances trying to..."

A little something I've been thinking about lately... As I pick up bits of church history I'm always interested to find that when the church gets in a bad way, and it does often, it tends to be participating in the prominent sins of the world at that time.

Thinking about the scandals of our time, I was struck by how the revelations of recent years were met by the world with sadness rather that the condemnation and scorn I would hear in my youth. The reason, it seems, is that the church scandals lifted the veil. We began hearing of coaches and counselors and scout leaders and ministers and teachers and even female teachers. The cockroaches find the cracks. And we all have to be diligent about finding and filling those cracks.

I speculate, but perhaps we the church, the Body of Christ, must continually to take on the sins of the world so that those sins may be overcome in the world.

As Pope Francis appears to be more and more overtly progressive or woke or whatever it is, the western progressive/woke power structure has become increasingly desperate, increasingly fragmented, and increasingly wobbly. The final roar of a dying dragon.

There are many ways one might encapsulate the predominant sin of our time but I do think we might have to take on the pain and embarrassment of that sin so the Christ may conquer it in the world.

Manny wrote: "I don’t like to encourage divisive subjects, but we have discussed some in the past, and perhaps we should discuss this issue that has come up in the Catholic world, that is, Pope Frances trying to..."

Thank you Manny for taking up this matter.

I am in full agreement with what you say. The issue over the Latin mass involves more than the language. Bishop Athanasius Schneider examined most of the controversies storming in our Church in his “Christus Vincit: Christ's Triumph over the Darkness of the Age.” The traditionalists oppose the priest turning his back on the Tabernacle during Mass, facing the congregation--becoming the center of attention instead--and distribution of Holy Communion to the hand as well. Bishop Schneider does address Pope Francis and writes he is praying for him.

For those of you who see the publication ‘’The Catholic Thing,’’ Father Gerald E. Murray completely concurs with Manny’s position, asking, ‘’By what definition is a viewpoint an ‘ideology,’ as distinct from a set of principles? . . . Is not a Catholic free in his mind and heart to respectfully disagree when he finds the direction the pope wants him to walk to be the wrong way to go?’’

The TLM is the one place where the Church is growing by leaps and bounds! Isn't this what Christ wanted?
Francis likes to call all traditional Catholics "rigid". Oh the irony! it is him who has been unbending, deaf, and quite uncharitable to those who ask for simple clarifications to his numerous ambiguous statements.

The Catholic Thing is well worth our time--the topics are from generally well-known Catholic writers and, despite the conservative slant (which is fine with me--we are so barraged with propaganda from the other side), well-reasoned and balanced. Another series available through email is One Peter Five--very traditional slant. also Aleteia. New Oxford Review and Aleteia are, probably, a bit less slanted one way, but all offer good Catholic journalism.

I grew up with the Latin Mass--and most years we attended Mass daily in Catholic schools. Latin was already familiar even if we didn't take classes in it I did, and am glad of it--learning Latin is a great vocabulary builder and helps one understand English grammar (which isn't generally being taught with the precision our Catholic schools did). What TLM offered that is generally lacking in the Novus Ordo is the beauty and solemnity that contributed to an atmosphere of reverence. Once we began taking our children to Mass with us--they were toddlers after Vat.II--I was struck by their irreverent behavior which took us some time to correct. I don't recall at any point in my preschool years where I would have dare speak out loud or whine or comment like you see kids in church today. And my parents would never have brought a baggie full of cheerios to keep me quiet, or allowed me to bring my toys and sit on the floor to play. On the other hand, I didn't see anything wrong with communion in the hand, -I can't see Jesus placing bread on the tongues of the apostles, rather than breaking the bread and sharing it. And I do think Gregorian chant is preferable to much of today's music.-

I've mentioned this before, but what causes me to ponder many times lately, when I find myself considering attending our SSPX parish not far from our own, is that Mater Dei parish is supported by many young families--too young to have grown up with Latin Masses. And at one of my ministries we have discussed the possibility of asking our new pastor if he would consider offering a Latin Mass as an option, even once a month . So far no one has taken up the cause, and I haven't heard yet how our bishop would receive it.

I do think this group is a very appropriate place to bring up the issues of Catholic Thought. I'm seeing

First off, I just realized, TLM stands for Traditional Latin Mass, not The Latin Mass...lol. Silly me.

Thank you for your comments.

The only place I would disagree with anything is with Madeleine's "What TLM offered that is generally lacking in the Novus Ordo is the beauty and solemnity that contributed to an atmosphere of reverence." If done properly the Novus Ordo is just as solemn and reverent as the TLM. In fact if you look up and place side by side the various rites you will find the Novus Ordo has more rites than TLM. That's because the novus ordo went back to the foundations of the Mass and picked up rites that had been dropped along the way. TLM only goes back to the Council of Trent. There was 1500 years of rites before it. TLM was not the original Mass form. Because the novus ordo is celebrated tens of thousands of times per week, there are people who allow variation and irreverence. TLM is probably only performed in the hundreds of times per week and celebrated by the disciplined. I'm willing to bet that before the Novus Ordo when TLM was celebrated tens of thousands of times per week there were plenty of irreverence in some of the celebrations. I do prefer the Novus Ordo. I find it extremely uplifting (connecting with God might be a better way to phrase it) while the few times I have gone to a Latin Mass it has left me cold. I attribute it to completely understanding one language and not the other, but I don't know.

So there's a defense of the Novus Ordo, to give equal balance. But I do not agree with Pope Frances and his attempt to cancel TLM.

I hear you, Manny. Yes, I know Novus Ordo can achieve the same degree of reverence--I see it especially at funerals, and even planned my mother's with the help of my gifted music minister niece and I think Mom must have loved that. Another one was the service for one of my friends whom I'd known since we were toddlers--she had been living at a Catholic retirement community and the elderly priest there talked about the Mass that we would have grown up with and incorporated some of the Latin chants in the requiem Mass--it was well done, and we still knew the responses.

I agree with you on Pope Francis' actions--he has definitely caused a great deal of confusion among Catholics. Let's keep him and church reform in our prayers!

Manny wrote: "First off, I just realized, TLM stands for Traditional Latin Mass, not The Latin Mass...lol. Silly me.

Thank you for your comments.

The only place I would disagree with anything is with Madeleine..."

I agree with what you say. We often have a tendency to do this in many areas. That is, compare a self-selected subgroup and compare that group against the meat of the bell curve. By definition, the more who do a thing, the more average the results of the thing will be.

The running joke has been that the Jesuits stopped being Catholic. I hate to get into the church left/right divide but frankly this article is beyond the politics. When you start advocating abortion, late term abortion no less, it is no longer an internal Catholic political issue. Abortion is not a political issue open for debate inside Catholicism. If you advocate abortion you stopped being Catholic. There are still good Jesuits around - Fr. Robert Spitzer comes to mind, and I was a long time admirer of Fr. James Schall - but the Jesuits mentioned in this article (other than Father Paul Mankowski who exposed the devious conspiracy) need to be stripped of their priesthood and thrown out of the church. What this article exposes is a half century of Jesuit duplicity in support of abortion. It is an outrage.

https://www.ncregister.com/commentari...

sorry, this is off the main point but I caught that you were a long time admirer of Schall rather than are. I didn't realize he had died some time ago. I hope I die that smart one day.

Casey wrote: "sorry, this is off the main point but I caught that you were a long time admirer of Schall rather than are. I didn't realize he had died some time ago. I hope I die that smart one day."

Yes he died a couple of years ago. I remember reading his last essays and then suddenly I heard the sad news. But he lived to a good old age and he found it miraculous he had survived cancer and some other illness with his eyes late in life. Those last essays he wrote with the joy of knowing he was close to being with the Lord. I remember he questioning what had happened to his beloved Jesuit Order. He was certainly of another generation. His books can be looked up here on Goodreads. For those unfamiliar here is his Wikipedia entry:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James...

Wow. I had no idea.

Hey, this is important. A warning has gone out that left Wing radicals are looking to crash and vandalize Catholic Churches this Sunday. I created a blog post to go over the details. Please read.

https://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot....

Be prepared at Church this Sunday. More than likely it won't happen to your church but don't take it for granted. And remember we all have an obligation to protect the Eucharist.

Thanks so much, Manny.

Great blog post! Thanks, Manny

You’re welcome. Let’s pray that nothing happens on Sunday and the coming weeks.

Yes!

Well, so much for nothing happening. Check this confrontation from NYC today.

https://freedomnews.tv/2022/05/07/pro...

Warning, the woman in the video says and does some crude things, but at least there was no violence. That’s Basilica of Old St. Patrick in New York. That’s not the more famous St. Patrick’s Cathedral that those outside of NYC might be familiar with. This was the original St. Patrick’s in downtown from the early part of NYC’s history, before the Cathedral was built up town. Here’s something interesting from the article:

"NYC performance artist Crackhead Barney made an appearance at the protest. No arrests were made and after several hours of protest the remaining protesters in both groups dispersed."

Crackhead Barney? LOL, never heard of him but where do they get these dopey people. Rhetorical question.

Thanks for your blog post, Manny. I was unaware of the planned protests until a friend told me just before Mass this evening. Then our guest celebrant, a missionary priest from Nigeria, mentioned the same. It was very windy here today, and a few times during Mass the doors banged partially open. You can believe every head swiveled.

I couldn't get all the way through the video you shared. How sad that the world has come to this. I imagine the crudeness - the awfulness - of just the part I watched was meant to be edgy and avant-garde, but really it was just pathetic. I pray for her and the other protesters, and above all I pray that their hysteria doesn't descend into physical violence, abuse, vandalism or worse tomorrow.

Meanwhile, we hear little or nothing from protesters, the news media, or social media about what I heard from our visiting priest - about how priests are being beheaded in Nigeria, churches set on fire, worshippers shot as they flee the burning churches, and starving children lured with bread and then strapped with explosives that terrorists detonate after sending the orphans into churches. Lord have mercy on us all.

Gerri, what the Islamic world has been doing to Christians is despicable. And without getting political, it goes back to the founding of Islam. It's been going on for some 1400 years.

The Jewish philosopher Will Herberg coined a phrase, “cut flower ethics.” Just as flowers cut off from their roots retain their beauty and vitality for a time, but then fade and die, so too, our culture, cut off from its Judeo-Christian roots, can flourish and prosper for a time, but will eventually lose its character and end.

Is this what’s happening to our country?

Not just our country Frances but all of western civilization.

Gerri wrote "about what I heard from our visiting priest..." I am honorary Grandma to our next door neighbors, A beautiful Nigerian family who are also members of our parish. Only their youngest, their daughter, was born here. We look after each other and celebrate and commiserate often. She teaches math in public school,, and he is a doctor who has spent many months treating CoVid patients. As hard as their work is, they still have family in Nigeria and have visited back and forth. They have told me how the Islamic extremists gradually transformed their Catholic country to the dangerous world it is now. I know they are worried about the family who remained but their faith is awesome. Keep all of the Nigerians in your prayers. Jim and I attended evening Mass yesterday without incident not even a mention of the conflict but I did notice the usher on our side was armed. I haven't yet gone online to hear of other places, except that Boulder CO was vandalized yesterday. Praying for peace all over.

Before my parents died (2018 and 2020), they didn't understand my peace-loving attitude of hoping Christians and Muslims could live in harmony despite differences. My father pointed out exactly what you did, Manny. When I studied more of the history, I understood.

Yet I still believe there are many modern Muslims who hate the violence and terrorism and seek peace. But the hard-liners - and sadly there are so many - are ruthlessly efficient. Too many Western people refuse to see the threat and Western media falls over backwards to avoid reporting the truth. Several years ago there was a big dust-up in the BBC because editors tried to suppress a story about a study that determined, with data, that more Christians were victims of genocide than any other group, in more areas of the world. Eventually the story was released, in a very short form and buried from easy view. No other mainstream media outlet shared the news.

Our priest yesterday pointed out that churches in Nigeria are generally full, despite the threats. He chided Americans, rightly, for the whining we routinely do. He said we should bless ourselves and thank God every time we walk into a well-stocked drugstore or the clean hospitals/clinics accessible to all of us. I realize he was fundraising, but he spoke truth.

Madeleine, I will pray for your neighbors. May their families and friends in Nigeria know peace. I will pray for all of us. Frances, just a look at what passes for culture these days shows me how much our roots are being attacked. I'm the eternal optimist, though. Roots are sturdier and stronger than they look.

The roots are sturdy and strong, but the terrorists and Marxists are trying to sever the plants (our Constitution, our Christian faith) from their roots. That’s what Will Herberg meant by the phrase “cut flower” ethics. The plant can’t survive, severed from its roots.

How ironic that China is rounding up Muslims, putting them in re-indoctrination camps, bulldozing mosques — and, as far as I can see, not one peep from Al Qaeda or ISIS.

Madeleine, those sound like wonderful neighbors.

Gerri, for the most part we can live together with Muslims. I meet Muslims who are good law abiding citizens. But there is the Koran. Despite what they say, jihad is not just a metaphor.

Frances, what has happened to our country in the last 15-20 years was unimaginable. There are people and issues I just don't recognize. Transgender?

Wow this is big! "Pelosi barred from Holy Communion over abortion advocacy"

It appears to have happened today. From Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone.:

“I must make a public declaration that [Pelosi] is not to be admitted to Holy Communion unless and until she publicly repudiate her support for abortion ‘rights’ and confess and receive absolution for her cooperation in this evil in the sacrament of Penance. I have accordingly sent her a Notification to this effect, which I have now made public,” Cordileone wrote in a letter released Friday."

https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/pelo...

Wow indeed!

At last!

Whoa

Florence Bernice wrote: "Whoa"

Florence! It’s great to see you. How are you doing?

I am great thank you! I actually have been lurking in the group for a while now. Thoughtful discussions!

Good for the Archbishop! I know of a few others that should be denied, too

Manny wrote: "Wow this is big! "Pelosi barred from Holy Communion over abortion advocacy"

It appears to have happened today. From Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone.:

“I must make a public declaration that [Pelo..."

A few months ago, I posted to my YouTube channel a study of what the Catholic Catechism actually says about abortion, what the US bishops actually say about abortion, what Pope Francis actually says about abortion, what the Roe v Wade opinion actually says, and other legitimate sources, pro and con. Also, Roe v Wade is a carefully thought-out opinion that reviews the legal history of abortion, plus what the early church fathers taught about abortion.

https://youtu.be/C4rH6qhhw70
https://youtu.be/jF-fsMvYsak

Up to now I’ve been reluctant to really refer to my YouTube channel, because people get upset when I “promote my channel.” In my view, it’s better to have a researched 20,000-word analysis than to post a several hundred-word screeds that inflame passions by repeating accepted though ill-researched talking points.

I wish to add, since I posted that study of abortion, I did not explicitly say a strict reading of the Catholic Catechism really does not permit a radical pro choice opinion. However, the unending march of progress in both medical science and the internet means, unfortunately, that people can self-abort with little risk if they follow the instructions freely available on the Internet, like taking abortion pills, so it really is a personal decision, whether we like it or not.

In the YouTube video I don’t really wish to choose between pro-life and pro-choice, IMHO they are not diametric opposites. My preference is to say I am pro-compassion, the context of what that means in developed in the video. If you don’t want to listen to my video, I reference in the description my blog and a PowerPoint script, which is nearly identical.

In the summer I plan to do a video where I read and reflect on the actual Supreme Court opinion when it comes out.

I also want to point out that recently an article was published by a professor at a Medical College, who specializes in high-risk pregnancies, who pushes back on the view that abortion is a simple issue, that people who support pro-choice are all baby killers, no matter what that, with no gray lines, she contends that this is an unrealistic position.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/arc...

Bruce, I may be mistaken about one aspect of Roe v Wade and, if so, I hope you can clarify it for me. It's my understanding that Roe is not a carefully thought-out opinion for this reason: Any issue that is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution goes to the states to be resolved by the voters. This is what would happen now if Roe is overturned by the Supreme Court, and what should have happened in the early 1970s. Isn't this correct?

Technically, that is not correct, the three Reconstruction Amendments state that the federal government can intervene to guarantee due process of law, citizenship, and universal suffrage to all citizens, including blacks, whether or not the state governments consent.
https://youtu.be/UciDV5laOLg

Bruce, I read the three Reconstruction Amendments. Is the pro-abortion position based on the interpretation of pregnancy as “involuntary servitude?’’ I’m sorry; I find that argument disingenuous and can’t accept it. We aren’t talking about 48 B.C. Rome; in majority of cases we’re talking about a modern adult woman’s responsibility for her sexual behavior. In civilized societies laws are formed to protect the most vulnerable. If that definition doesn’t apply to the unborn child to whom does it apply? I agree with Mother Teresa: ‘’If a woman can kill her own child, what is there left to destroy in the West?’’

Bruce wrote: "Technically, that is not correct, the three Reconstruction Amendments state that the federal government can intervene to guarantee due process of law, citizenship, and universal suffrage to all cit..."

Sure, but none of those have anything to do with abortion.

They do, the justices debated whether the should argue due process for Roe v Wades opinion.

The original question was this:
Any issue that is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution goes to the states to be resolved by the voters.

I answered this specific question. I did not say my answer directly addressed abortion.

Bruce wrote: "Manny wrote: "Wow this is big! "Pelosi barred from Holy Communion over abortion advocacy"

It appears to have happened today. From Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone.:

“I must make a public declarat..."

in a way, it really doesn't matter what the Church Fathers' opinion on abortion was, and that's what all theologians put forth: opinion. What matters is what's taken and declared dogma and Magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church. there are lots of thoughts and opinions in some of the Church Fathers the church has not taken as dctrine. From the earliest Apostolic teaching, the Didache, which constitutes the beginning of Church teaching, clearly stated in chapter 2 verse 2:

"Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not corrupt boys; thou shalt not commit fornication. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; thou shalt not practice sorcery. Thou shalt not procure abortion, nor shalt thou kill the new-born child. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods." (Chapter 2, Verse 2)
http://www.catholicplanet.com/ebooks/...

Other translations I’ve seen phrase that sentence as not killing the child in the womb. So you see, the earliest Christians found it immoral to kill a child, indeed to not kill one that has not been born yet. Notice the context of the paragraph. It puts the killing of the unborn in the same context as the Ten Commandments, at the same level of morality as the killing of a birthed human being. In addition, that corollary on not killing a “new-born child” was a direct statement against the pagan killing of infants, either from exposure by the Greeks and Romans or as a sacrifice by the North African pagans, such as the Carthaginians.

The Catholic Church teaching has been against abortion from the first century, indeed, from before some of the Books of the New Testament were written.

Frances wrote: "Bruce, I read the three Reconstruction Amendments. Is the pro-abortion position based on the interpretation of pregnancy as “involuntary servitude?’’ I’m sorry; I find that argument disingenuous an..."

My best answer is, read the blog/pdf script, and/or listen to the YouTube video. Or, I can copy and paste from these if you wish.

My response to Manny answers your question as well.

Trust me, I am not a baby killer, and I do not believe in killing babies.

Question:
Is the pro-abortion position based on the interpretation of pregnancy as “involuntary servitude?’’

Answer: Of course not, this position is absurd.

Bruce, I really would like to understand how the three Reconstruction Amendments relate to Roe v. Wade. I read the guarantees again. Under the heading Digital USD, from the University of San Diego, there is a paper on the 13th Amendment titled ‘’reflections on abortion.’’ It’s in this paper that the reference to pregnancy as involuntary servitude is made. If I’ve misread or am otherwise mistaken, I am sorry.

Here is another statement on the issue:

‘’Denial of bodily autonomy is the essence of violence against women. Reproductive coercion — whether by an intimate partner, an anti-abortion protester or the government — is a form of violence against women . . . Abortion bans and restrictions violate the fundamental human right to bodily autonomy and liberty guaranteed by the 13th and 14th Amendments of the U.S. Constitution.’’
(Carrie N. Baker, Ph.D., professor at Smith College writing in Ms. Magazine)