The Sword and Laser discussion

So I'm 10% in, and I feel like that's far enough for some discussion of initial impressions.

My overall sense of the thing thus far is a Zack Snyder movie. A lot of people grimacing under an extremely blatant grey filter.

I've been trying to figure out why I'm not enjoying this. At first I thought it was just the prose, which is oftentimes clumsy, redundant, and just overwritten, but after fifty pages I can usually get past that. Then I thought that maybe I just don't like the grimdark genre, that maybe this is too violent and depressing (grey filter!) for me to enjoy.

But then I read the Winds of Winter preview chapter recently released, which reminded me that no, there's at least one extremely dark and violent fantasy series I've loved since I first encountered it seven/ eight years ago. And that comparison created some interesting parallels.

Both are extremely dark. Both feature child protagonists in that dark setting, and both feature child protagonists eventually embracing that violence. Both are about terrible wars that hurt all levels of society. And most interestingly, both seem to embrace the same structure, of introducing multiple narrative voices on all sides of that conflict, featuring extremely focused third person limited narrators.

So I looked back at A Game of Thrones. Bran is the first perspective, post-prologue that we get.

Both begin with a brutal death, as someone is put to death. The difference is in one we have an innocent watching the law at work as a man is executed, and in other we have a little child getting all stabby on his brother because his brother is.... not intelligent or something?

Martin gives us a lot of space. He introduces us to a world and to characters before everything goes down. We care about the conflict and about the characters because we have time to grow fond of them and become immersed in this world. And the violence/grimness of the thing is slowly amped up over the course of the novel.

Imagine if he had started the whole thing with the Red Wedding, after everyone has become dark and jaded, after the conflict has taken massive tolls. Would you care? I don't think I would. And I think that's why I'm finding it hard to care about these characters.

(Something should be said too of Martin's amazing ability to really dive into the psyche of terrible people and help us understand them. I feel like Cersei Lannister is probably more blatantly evil of a character than is [That One Rich Dude Who Chats With His Daughter In An Early Chapter], but Cersei's chapters always at least partially got me on her side. With TORDWCWHDIAEC, I feel nothing at all).

So I'm still going to give it more of a chance, because maybe term papers and the way HIMYM ended are making me cranky enough to hate anything I'd read right now. But those are my first impressions

My first impressions aren't favorable either. I'm struggling to get through the book.

I am mildly enjoying it. It's not something I would normally pick up, so it's a nice change of pace.

I'm enjoying it more than I thought I would. It's not the kind of book I read much anymore, but I remember loving similar books about 15 or 20 years ago, and it feels a step or two above that.

Regarding ASOIAF comparisons, I think it's like comparing The Deer Hunter to Missing In Action. They're both dark, violent movies about the impact of the Vietnam War on American prisoners-of-war, but the former is a psychological character study while the latter is a high-action revenge fantasy. You can enjoy or dislike either film, but they're very different executions of similar subject matter.

Although I'll give ADoC a few extra marks: it's pulp, but it's really well-done pulp. The characters are a nice diversity of viewpoints who all have clear and reasonable motivations for their actions (view spoiler)[even the guys who are black-clad, evil for the sake of evil because they worship a god of evil violently disagree with each other about how to be evil (hide spoiler)], the action scenes are pretty engaging, and it all seems to be building up to a thrilling climax.

I'm a bit farther than 20% in and am losing steam. (It's been 2-3 days since I've read any of it.) There are definitely some good points to the book - none of the characters do dumb things just because the author has plot needs and the writing is brisk and clear - but I have issues with character-motivation and world building.

It's actually about motivation in minor things. For example, there is a female character on a rooftop early in the book who decides to intervene in a chase on the chance of profit. That's fine. But her first step is to kill one of the chasers. Murder of one member of a large group of guards seemed pretty risky for such speculative benefit. There are similarly undermotivated acts scattered throughout what I've read so far.

I am also finding it hard to make this society fit together in my head. There seems to be an awful lot of daily killings in really large numbers. I can't see how that's sustainable even in the middle of a gang-war. I also can't see how a kingdom could be run where the king remains in any way neutral in a battle between the richest citizens of his capital and a thieves' guild. I try to picture Thren as the Godfather and it still doesn't seem to be quite enough ...

Ok. So I'm not completely comfortable just dumping on this since this pick is kind of a personal one; it's not just a popular novel, it's a cool dude's personal pick. So here's a few things that I am enjoying, even if overall my experience isn't completely positive:

1. The general badassery. I made the comparison before to a Zack Snyder movie, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing in and of itself. The action sequences are more 300 than Man of Steel; it's irritating how all of the main characters seem to be badasses, but it's awesome when those characters are actually in the act of being a badass (if that makes sense)

2. The focus on one particular city. I really, really love things set in cities, and I also really do like that this feels epic while still being very limited in setting.

3. It's refreshing. Even Man of Steel can be refreshing if all you've been watching for months is Criterion Collection dvds (which I feel like we have been).

(@Joe, yeah, I get that you really can't compare the two strictly. It was just that some structural similarities between the two helped me understand why I wasn't enjoying the one)

My expectations sank the moment Tom and Veronica compared it to Dragonlance during the latest episode.

Alan wrote: "I am also finding it hard to make this society fit together in my head. (snip)"

If I had to put a finger on it, I'd say it feels like a video game setting. Just about every character that actually gets a name and even a minimal exploration of their point of view is some kind of badass, either in hand-to-hand combat, magic, or both. Even characters who are somewhat sheltered and pampered have some badassery by virtue of being important to the plot. Every background character is just a mook or victim or resource.

The plot serves mainly to put these badasses in each others' paths. Priests and mages exist, and have magic powers, and no attempt is made to explain or justify this, it just is. Which is fine--not every book needs to have a Brandon Sanderson-level graduate thesis on how magic works. That's why I think Rob's Zack Snyder comparison is very appropriate. It's a Dynasty Warriors-style video game, where a handful of badasses slaughter mooks by the dozens before directly engaging each other in scenery-destroying duels.

I agree with Rob and Joe. This really isn’t the kind of book I read that much anymore, but it’s an interesting change from what Tom and Veronica have been choosing.

I’m looking forward to the interview with Bryan about his thoughts on the book and why he chose it. I think it’s pretty ballsy to pick a book for this group, and I want to thank him for the read and the Kickstarter donation. Now I’ll think of Haern every time I see Lem (….although I think Lem would eat him without any problems).

The series I did identify this with most was the Brent Weeks The Night Angel Trilogy (which may have put me off this genre for a while), and was glad to see David Dalglish mention the linkage in his afterward.

Joe Informatico, you are totally on point comparing this to a videogame. It is kind of what I imagine an Assassin's Creed novelization would be like. I'm about a third of the way through and I feel like I don't have a clear mental picture of the setting, i don't have a connection with any of the characters, and I'm not invested in the stakes or the conflict. But should I blame the book for not holding my interest or myself for not paying enough attention ?

I can't agree more Rob. And I like the comparison you made with ASOIAF. Every time I heard (I'm listening to the audio book version) someone call a boy "green" for being inexperienced or the female character tell herself she's a "woman grown" I just felt like GRRM owns those terms and unless you use them interestingly it just reminds me of his work, which in my mind is far superior. None of these characters are remotely established (except for they're bad asses in "insert skill here") so I have no sense of suspense in the action. I think Martin immediately established his characters so you feel for them when he creates spots of tension, even in beginning chapters (or in his excellent short fiction).

But I'll mention a few things I enjoyed so far: The audio book is awesomely narrated. He really tries to put something into these bland characters. If I ever write a book, I want him voicing my characters. And I like the idea of these super powerful thief guilds running the city. The setting seems interesting, but it's taken a back seat to the action so far, so hopefully it is expanded on in later chapters.

(Loved the Dynasty Warriors ref, Joe. I immediately thought of storm troopers when I was reading.)

I liked the first quarter, but starting getting bored in the second quarter. I'm hoping it picks up when I finish this weekend.

I'm really enjoying this book, which is good because I haven't had a book grab me in a while. I've about 20% finished.

I'm about 25% of the way through, and I'm really loosing steam. I think it has to do with not really grasping why the thieves' guilds are fighting this coalition of merchants. Which is a problem as it's the impetus for all of this.

I'll stick with it, in the hopes that things might pick up at some point.

I'm also about 30% through and I can't help but get a soap opera vibe from the book. Everyone makes overly dramatic decisions all the time and things are always larger then life with no real basis in previous events.

Thren scolds his son telling him how family is the most important thing and then has Aaron kill his older brother for making too many mistakes.

Later Aaron saves the life of someone he barely knows who sold him out only the day before.

Also does old man gemcroft remind anyone else of older version of Ming the Merciless?

THis book was fun to read. I like books about assassins and I love the thrill of hiding and killing in stories. This book gave me a ninja vibe. How the author illustrates the fights was stunning as well.

Yeah the decisions the characters make is a bit too dramatic but acceptable. I like how it had some magic elements to it. The magic was very in the unknown rather having its explanation which I found very pulling.

I am actually enjoying reading this well the story I listen to the Sword and Laser pics on my drive to work and my word the voices that guy doing the audio version dose are frankly terrible. I don't know if it is his idea of a British accent but his voice ranges from cockney to brummie to Norther Irish and to Scottish in range of a few words. It is awful though I like the story I cringe at his voice I could do a better job. I really mean it someone pay and I will go and record a far better version of this. Dose any one else agree with me on his voice or is it just me an English guy with an over sensitive ear.

Thomas wrote: "I am actually enjoying reading this well the story I listen to the Sword and Laser pics on my drive to work and my word the voices that guy doing the audio version dose are frankly terrible. I don'..."

I don't dislike it as much as you. But I did just get to a part where he seems to be doing bad Slavic accents for a couple of new characters. I'm not sure why. And when I thought about it more, I realized one of those "new" characters isn't actually new - but apparently he spent a lot of time abroad between chapters, because I didn't recognize him.

I kind of liked the prologue and the way it set the tone. It was, literally and figuratively, a sharp blow to the gut...

But so far there seems to be a lot of bloody exposition and not much in the way of character development... I need to become attached to someone who will make me feel invested in this book, fast.

I've got too much going on this month to spend slogging through something I'm not enjoying, so I'm going to just lem it I think and catch up on some Wodehouse (and the Anthology!).

I did come across some promising passage in the past couple of chapters("Daggers and Poison floated through the streets" was just a perfect line. Not overly purple, perfect tone, etc. And the bit about the imposing, god-built walls and towers mocked by the unimpressive city within was a really great image. It's a little unfortunate that the first really great, concrete image of the city comes in the fifth chapter, but it's still a really great, concrete image), so I might get back to it eventually.

I'm about 1/4 of the way through and I'm still moving along.

I have one pet-peeve that is irking the hell out of me: tissue paper soldiers/guards. Seriously. If I was in a long-term conflict with other groups that have super(ish) powers, I would be sinking a serious amount of capital into training competent guards. If you routinely run into combatants that can hit you in a sweet spot with a thrown dagger from a distance, you need to rethink your armor policy and your training.

Unless the purpose of having craptacular guards is to fill the hallways with their corpses as a natural barrier behind which you can place archers.

I think that Peter's Evil Overlord List should be mandatory reading for avoiding this trope.

Ah, I'm not the only one - I started this a few days ago, put it down, then forgot to pick it up again. Another psychotic killer tween boy? Going to have to force myself back to this.

I almost lemmed this at about 40% but then at around 50% there was some development of Aaron that peaks my interest enough to carry on. I just wish the story would stick with him and Kayla and not keep cutting to all the other assholes that I don't really care about.

Okay, I found the book a bit annoying the first quarter, but now I think it's getting interesting (around 50%). I still have problem what kind of character Aaron really is but he is still the most engaging. Most of the others are a bit a difficult to sympathize with,perhaps with the exception of Kayla and maybe...maybe Alyssa (up to now, she's a bit irritating but interesting developments).

Overall, I don't really find this book particularly original...yet. Hopefully there'll be a 'wow' moment that will make everything worth it. If not, doubt I'll pick up anything else from the writer.

I can understand how this one isn't for everybody. And I'm about 35% in and I can see how people would find it slow.

I'm actually liking it. It does remind me a bit of ASOIAF. Part of that comes from the violence, but also from the style of writing. Each chapter being a different POV, the wide cast of characters that can be easy to get confused/a little lost at first... I also like that there are some interesting, strong female characters. And, while it's got a lot of violence, I seem to do OK with fantasy violence (as compared to violence in sci fi or what I read in modern thriller-type books).

It's not the "deepest" book I've ever read. It probably won't win any points for the beautiful prose or anything, but I like reading "easier" books. Books like Cloud Atlas or 1Q84 are a lot of fun, but they can be work. This book is fun (so far) for different reasons, and I enjoy "popcorn" or "beach" books.

Strong Female Character as in a strong character that is female, or as in the Sucker Punch kind of Strong Female Character?


Really, I'd protest the idea that deep books have tough/dense prose, and fun books have easy prose. Good books have good prose. If I did a terrible painting of Venice, you wouldn't say "well the way he put the paint onto the canvas is bad, but Venice is a pretty beautiful place, so this is a good painting. Not one of the greats of history, but still pretty good!" Words are the brush strokes of authors.

Sometimes good prose means *simple* prose, but that's not what we have here. We have often long, complex sentence structures and/or paragraphs that sound awkward, and get in the way of what the author is trying to say (really if the editor had just cut like 10% of the words this would be immensely improved).

And really, I would argue that simple prose really doesn't help the kind if novel this wants to be. I mean, who would film a badass action flick and go "ok, we want the camerawork to be as simple as possible. Nothing flashy or crazy here. Pretend we're working on a romcom."

I think, (and I recommended this in another thread), Aiden Moher's story in the sword and laser anthology is a great example of this. His prose isn't ostentatious at all, but he knows how to give his prose a fitting tone, and how to throw in badass lines that actually do sound badass rather than sound like someone trying to sound badass and tripping over themselves.

I wasn't trying to say that a difficult book has good prose and a fluffy one does not, though now re-reading what I wrote, I can see how it came off that way. The deep comment was meant to be separate from the prose comment. I was more trying to say that I like a variety of books, ranging from deep/complicated to fluffy, all with various styles. This book is pretty much my epitome of a beach book and it's working for me.

That said, it's been a very long day and I've taken some painkillers so I'm going to try to remember to revisit this thread in the morning. Anything I type at this point will only be even less cogent than my last post... : D

Ah, ok! Sorry for misinterpreting.

So far the consensus here seems to be evenly divided, but leaning a bit toward the negative. Personally I had to lem it. After 30% in (so I did give it a chance), I found the whole cast of characters unpleasant to the point that I really don’t care what happens. Usually I’m motivated to finish any book because I have to know what happens in the end. But not this time.
And for the record, I lemmed ASOIAF too. Not because of the unpleasant characters. Though it definitely has its share. But it just never seemed to get anywhere.

I'm closing in on 80% done right now, and I have to admit this book didn't really start getting interesting until around the 40-45% mark (which is around 20% late, in my opinion). I'm glad I stuck with it, but I totally get why some people might give up on it.

Not to hurt any feelings, truly, truly - but this book sucks. IMHO.

It's so shallow in the backstories, and derivative of the Japanese 'Adult Swim' Cartoon Network imports, except the characters are paper cutouts glued onto popcycle sticks. They've all got only three modes of feeling (want to kill something now, will wait awhile to extract goodies if you are important and rich before I kill you, and I'm impressed by how well you kill so I like you and will be your friend). No depths whatsoever. It reads like it's written for readers without a lot of time to waste on world building or connecting with the book.

My copy doesn't say (thankfully I borrowed this from the library), but is this a middle school read?

Nothing personal, honest. Obviously I'm not the target audience.

I'm amused that I'm the one who probably looked on it most favorably. I usually am tough--my average review score is about a point lower than most overall (I remember it came up while we discussed stats in another thread a year or more ago) and people have written on my reviews that I'm tough.

Maybe I'm soft for first works and/or self-published things (I don't know if this one was, but the alt pick was, so I forgive editing issues if I know it's likely a professional editor wasn't involved). Just amusing to me. :)

Yeah, I ended up pretty squarely in the middle. While there were a bunch of characters, there really wasn't much in the way of development to make me care, other than maybe Haern. Thren specifically is presented as some sort of almost mythical badass, and I felt he had the potential to be an interesting and deep character, but it really didn't go anywhere. Also, I read it mostly via Audible and I agree that I didn't like the narration, so that didn't help.
Interestingly, despite finishing up at what I would say a 2.5/5 rating, my opinion went up after listening to the authors note at the end, where he explains where the series came from and how (in my words) the first edition he kind of threw together and was all over the place. So he understood at least some of the weaknesses and went back and fixed at least some of them. I can appreciate that. Whether or not that is enough to get me to read the second book, I'm not sure yet.

After about 30% in, I started loving some of the female characters - Veliana, in particular, and then Zusa and Kayla and even Alyssa.

Now I'm much more invested in the story and enjoying it!