The History Book Club discussion

Very incisive review, Grafakos. I also like Pakenham's work.....an excellent historian.

Thomas Pakenham

I think I am missing something here. Everyone was talking about this book several years ago so I finally took it out of the library to give it a try. May I say that it is, so far, the dumbest thing I have ever read. I realize that I am not into the meat of the story yet but the "coolness" of what is in and what is not as far as clothes, restaurants, furnishings, etc. is really starting to make my hair catch on fire. I don't know if I can stay with it long enough to figure out what all the hype was about. Or, as I said, am I missing the point here?

by Bret Easton Ellis

Jill - the endless descriptions of clothing, restaurant menus, etc. were intended to be completely over-the-top ridiculous. The protagonist and his colleagues are so vapid that, although they can instantly recognize the clothing brands that everyone is wearing, they often mistake each other's identities.

They're so self-focused that they don't even notice when one of their peers turns into a murdering psycho, even though he practically outright tells them that he is a killer.

Although Ellis was targeting Wall Street yuppies in the '80s, the satire works equally well if you apply it to Silicon Valley techies or, well, Wall Street yuppies today.

I completely understand that it's not everyone's cup of tea and would not discourage you to quit reading if you can't get into it (the graphic violence gets more and more over the top as the book goes on), *but* do skim through and find the sections where he does music reviews (Huey Lewis, Phil Collins, I forget who else, maybe Whitney Houston?) as they are completely hilarious.

I understand the premise and knew that the author was writing satirically regarding the shallowness of the characters and the clothes brands, etc. but I just couldn't enjoy it. It went on too long and I began to really dislike them and couldn't get past that. I am still with it but it is a chore. I will take your word that it gets better.

I also found the endless, pointless lists/descriptions irritating at first. They persist throughout the book, but at some point I started to actually find it funny when yet another one of them started. After a while I would just skim them to look for anything "awry".

The scenes of graphic violence are exactly the same way - absurdly over the top and longwinded enough that my mind started to get numb to them just like with the clothing and food lists. I am sure this was exactly the author's intention.

I can't guarantee that you will have the same experience (check the reviews - they are very divided, with some reviewers whose opinions I respect completely hating the book, which I certainly understand), but I did start to enjoy the book maybe 50 pages into it, and ended up rating it four stars. I think I would stand by that rating today. Most books, I can barely remember anything about after a few years, but this one was certainly memorable.

I did look up the reviews since I felt that I might be being unfair and they were certainly all over the board. So guess it is just a matter of taste. I enjoy satire but don't like being beat over the head with it....I'm more the "subtle satire" type person. :0)

Yeah, this book is anything but subtle. Speaking of reviews, I found that many of the negative reviewers went out of their way to come up with interesting descriptions of their experience, one of my favorites being:

Bret Easton Ellis is an author who makes the (otherwise inexplicable to me) concept of the Finnish sauna appealing. After reading his vile 'brain'-droppings, I wanted to spend hours in an intolerably hot humid cabin, there to sweat and be beaten with birch twigs until all of the vileness I had absorbed from contact with this dreck had been purged from my system.

OK, I guess I've blathered enough about this book now. This is supposed to be a history forum, after all. :-)

Obligatory history mention: up next after my current South Africa reading, I am trying to decide between the following two books:

* Master of the Senate by Robert Caro. This is volume 3 in Caro's epic biography of Lyndon Johnson. Originally intended to be a trilogy, he just keeps on writing, at a pace of roughly one volume per decade. Volume 4 was published in 2012, so it may be a long wait until the conclusion, assuming that Caro doesn't extend it to yet another volume, and assuming he lives long enough to complete it; he's currently 79 years old, and hopefully has good genes, because judging from the first two volumes, this is one of the best series of books I've ever read, and certainly the best biography. I often find myself reading a history book or a biography, and wishing that Caro had written it instead.

* Byzantium: The Early Centuries by John Julius Norwich. This is the first book in a trilogy; fortunately all three volumes have been published, so there's no Caro-like uncertainty here. The topic is one that I know next to nothing about, except from what little I learned in high school. It spans an immense time frame (roughly 200-1453 AD) so I expect it to be fast-paced even when spread across three books. I want to read this both for the subject in its own right, but also to get the proper historical background before proceeding with the Ottoman Empire, which is what I'm actually itching to learn more about after recently reading about colonial Africa and WWI.

by Robert A. Caro

by John Julius Norwich

The Caro book is excellent!!!

by Robert A. Caro

Hi - I am juggling a few books at the moment, but the ones I will mention here are Margaret MacMillan's The War that Ended Peace, which is about the extraordinarily complex lead-up to WW1, and the very detailed Woodrow Wilson: A Biography by John Milton Cooper Jr. I am enjoying both but they are very long and in-depth. [To be frank I am growing a bit weary of President Wilson.]



Margaret MacMillan




John Milton Cooper Jr.



Next will be something about the 1919 Paris Peace Conference where all the treaties were hammered out. Any suggestions?

I would highly recommend this book...it is a classic. She is a wonderful historian.

by Margaret MacMillan
______________________________________________________

BTW, you gave it a good try on the citations in your post. To be consistent with guidelines, use this format.

by Margaret MacMillan
by John Milton Cooper Jr.(no photo)

The Wilson book is great as well, but it can get a bit dry in places. We actually did a group read on it a couple of years ago. You may want to look into the Presidential Series folder to find all of the topics related to the book. To get you started, here is the first discussion.

1. WOODROW WILSON: A BIOGRAPHY~ PROLOGUE and CHAPTER 1 (3 - 32)

Looking through the discussion may help you through those dry spots. And feel free to add/post in those discussions. Other members/moderators will respond.

by John Milton Cooper Jr. (no photo)

Leslie wrote: "Hi - I am juggling a few books at the moment, but the ones I will mention here are Margaret MacMillan's The War that Ended Peace, which is about the extraordinarily complex lead-up to WW1, and the ..."

Now I am in a quandry as to what to read next. Following this thread only adds fuel to my internal debate on the matter. :-) My big Fall book will be
by Nancy Gibbs

But for now I need a paperback so I can toss it in my beach bag and not worry about getting sand and suntan lotion all over it. Up for consideration are these:
Michelle Alexander
by James Lee Burke
by Margaret MacMillan
by Katharine Graham
They have all been in the to-read pile for quite awhile. I am not skilled at reading more than one book at a time and these are all good choices and all quite different from each other. What to do?!

I know what you mean. I have so many book in my tbr shelves that they are reaching into infinity!!! What I usually do is read a large history book and then do a quick mystery, usually British, that doesn't make you think too much. So you might want to try the James Lee Burke book in the Robicheaux series....then it will be time to move to the heavier tomes with the brain cells refreshed and still intact!!!!

by James Lee Burke

Jill I love that idea. Thanks for the suggestion!

Jill wrote: "I would highly recommend this book...it is a classic. She is a wonderful historian.

by [author:M..."

I agree on Paris, 1919 - a great book. Region by region, she looks at some of the past history of the area, what each side hoped to gain, what finally resulted, plus a hint of how we're living with some of those decisions to this day.

I did in fact decide to go with the James Lee Burke and I must say it is proving to be a fine choice. As with all his books, he uses south Louisiana as the setting, and this one in New Orleans at the start of Hurricane Katrina. The first 50 pages reads like the best historical fiction, and it is clear he is going to use much of what happened in and around NOLA during Katrina and its aftermath as an important element in this mystery. He is also a great writer - illustrative, vivid, evocative - and so far this does not disappoint.

by James Lee Burke

The Robicheaux series is a good one. Glad you like it, Alisa.

I just started this book and it is absolutely fascinating. I think I recommend it and I'm only three chapter in.

by William K. Klingaman (no photo)

Just finished: by Henry Kissinger

Currently in the middle of: by Tom Burgis (no photo)

I also recently started a book produced by RAND on northern Yemen:

by Barak A. Salmoni (no photo)

Byzantium: The Early Centuries by John Julius Norwich. This is the first of a three-volume series spanning the 1100+ year history of the Byzantine Empire (300-1453). At only about 350-400 pages per volume, that means that on average, the author covers about one year per page! Even with the relatively narrow focus adopted by Norwich, which is very much emperor-centric, the pace is pretty brisk, and it's challenging to keep track of who is who: there were 88 emperors, many with similar or even identical names, and enough intermarriage to make the family trees quite complicated.

Fortunately, Norwich provides both family trees and timelines, as well as a decent set of maps. Also, the current year is displayed at the top of each page. Nonetheless, this is a fairly challenging read due to the sheer information density. (Incidentally, he somehow managed to condense the already-brisk three volumes into a single-volume version, A Short History of Byzantium; I can't imagine how.)

It's also an incredibly interesting read, due in no small part to Norwich's lively writing style. The subject itself is fascinating: many of the emperors were very colorful characters, and Norwich includes enough detail that there's something astonishing happening on nearly every page. His sharp sense of humor and deft turns of phrase make the prose itself very pleasant to read. He is not shy about stating his opinions and judgments. This is not dry history by any means. Highly recommended!

The 3-volume series:
by John Julius Norwich

The 1-volume condensed version:
by John Julius Norwich

Thanks Jill for helping out K and Saeed.

K when you get a chance for practice - just go in and edit message 2298 to look like Jill's example and then you will be ready to go next time. But good effort.

Saeed - you might want to go back in and edit your post so that you figure out how we do citations here - book cover, author's photo when available and always the author's link. Thank you for your efforts so far.

Hitler: A Study in Tyranny: An incredibly thorough account of the life of Adolf Hitler. I'm nearing the end, and I'd highly recommend it to any student of history.
Lord of the Flies: This novel managed to elude me in my childhood, and it's my first reading of it. I'm generally impressed so far, but I'm only about a quarter in.
'Salem's Lot: I'm around half way into Stephen King's vampire novel, and I'm enjoying it quite a lot. I'd say that it's better-written than Pet Sematary, and is almost on par with The Shining.

Hello Jonathan - great books and thank you for adding the book links - however in the History book club we add citations with the book cover, the author's photo when available and always the author's link. It makes it easier for our members to research the books you add and helps the powerful goodreads software populate our site correctly across the different threads.

If you could edit message 2357 - it would be most appreciated and thank you for your post. We are primarily a non fiction and/or history group - so when citing books that do not fit that genre - we let folks know. But folks are welcome to participate on all of our threads and read what they like - for example on our 50 Books threads. We welcome all genres but our primary focus is history and non fiction.

by Alan Bullock (no photo)

by William Golding - FICTION

by Stephen King - FICTION

by Stephen King - FICTION

BY Stephen King - FICTION

Ty wrote: "Just finished: by Henry Kissinger

Currently i..."

Ty, there is no way to send you messages - if you received messages from us in the past - right now that is not working - it could be goodreads (a bug), it could be something that you have changed in your profile. I tried to add you as a friend but unfortunately - that did not work either so that I could not send you a message. Only moderators can set up threads on our site. Why -to avoid spam which is rampant on sites which allow this. You only have to contact a moderator, go to a suggestion thread, or send a PM to a mod to get your suggestion for a thread responded to.

By
I procrastinated this one, as it is a daunting length. Taking a while to get into it, but I think it will be worth it. Gaining a little insight into 19th century Russia along the way!

What a book, Rose!!! Though I understand why you procrastinate since I did the same thing.

BTW, please put your book citation below your text and don't forget the author's link. Thanks, it's an easy thing to forget sometimes.

by Leo Tolstoy

Just started Wars of the Roses: Peace and Conflict in 15th Century England by John Gillingham. I am not that far into it yet, but I am enjoying what I have read. It is a fascinating time period.

by John Gillingham(no photo).

One of my favorite periods in English history, Eric. I look forward to your review.

BTW, when there is no photo of the author, please note it as such:

by John Gillingham(no photo)

I'm reading The song of Achilles by Madeline Miller.I find it kinda childish and tedious.I don't really understand why it has 4 stars on goodreads.

I often wonder about the rating system myself. I have read some pretty terrible books and end up in the minority when it comes to rating. But since rating is subjective, I don't pay a lot of attention to what others think although I must admit I usually read some of the reviews before I start a book.

When mentioning a book/author, please use the citations which are described in full at the following link:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Your book should look like this:

by Madeline Miller

Jill wrote: "One of my favorite periods in English history, Eric. I look forward to your review.

BTW, when there is no photo of the author, please note it as such:

b..."

I have not read much on this period of England's history, so this is one of my first forays into the Wars of the Roses time period. It seems quite interesting, so far.

There is often a lot of shuffle that goes on as I finish one book and before I decide what to start next. This one rose to the top and I plan to start it tonight. I heard the author speak shortly after the book was published and found her fascinating and point of view thought provoking. Looking forward to sinking into this one.

by Michelle Alexander

@Eric.....don't forget to modify your book citation in post #2362. Thanks so much.

I think you will find that the War of the Roses era will fascinate you...it finally brought to an end the Hundred Years War as England was exhausted by the political situation in the home islands. British history is very rich.

Alisa.......looks like an interesting book. I look forward to your review.
I, of course, am back on the trail of obscure books and am about to start the one cited below. I seem to be on a murder mystery jag!

by Steven Levingston (no photo)

Jill wrote: "@Eric.....don't forget to modify your book citation in post #2362. Thanks so much.

I think you will find that the War of the Roses era will fascinate you...it finally brought to an end the Hundred..."

Fixed. :)

Thanks you, Eric....I appreciate your quick response. Now enjoy that book!!!!!!

Jill wrote: "Alisa.......looks like an interesting book. I look forward to your review.
I, of course, am back on the trail of obscure books and am about to start the one cited below. I seem to be on a murder my..."

You always have a mystery in the reading queue! I can't keep up with you. You know how I love the obscure so will keep an eye out for your review as well. :-)

This one has started out well......it is true crime set in the belle epoque in Paris. What a time that must have been during those years!

by Steven Levingston (no photo)

Well, there's another one for my To Read pile. Hope it's good.

Jill wrote: "This one has started out well......it is true crime set in the belle epoque in Paris. What a time that must have been during those years!

[bookcover:Little Demon in the City of Light: A True Story..."

My goal is to make your tbr pile as big as mine, Teri!! Seriously, it is pretty interesting although I am only in about three chapters but will be reading later while in bed (my favorite place to read!!)

Jill, I already blame you for my burgeoning TBR list and Teri has been doing her part of late too. Ahh, trouble of the best kind.

Too true, Alisa. Remember we are the "obscure book" gals!!!

Fish, and goats, and who knows what else LOL!

Don't forget that you started it with "Cod".....so we can blame you.

Have you started that book I cite below? I am interested in what her premise is although I think I have an idea.

by Michelle Alexander

I am only a few pages into it but have heard her speak on this so am familiar with her point of view and analysis. The premise is that the war on drugs has resulted in mass incarceration disapportionately applied to people of color and the poor, and creating an institutionalized racism worse than the old Jim Crow laws. "By targeting black men through The War on Drugs and decimating communities of color, the U.S. Criminal justice system functions as a contemporary system of racial control relegating millions to a permanent second class status - even as it formally adheres to the principal of color blindness." She is a Stanford scholar, professor of law, former SCOTUS law clerk, presents an incredibly well researched position here. I heard her speak on this to an audience of 1,200 lawyers and she had that crowd riveted. The judges at my table were squirming, and everyone took notice of what she had to say. The current discussion of reform of the drug laws echoes with some of the arguments she sets out and draws on much of the same research. It is thought provoking, she challenges the status quo directly.
by Michelle Alexander

That was basically what I thought she was writing about.....I am not familiar with her but her talk sounds like it was amazing.

Her presentation was outstanding and made a lasting impression.

by Brian Kilmeade

Just started. I have always been interested in American history. I know about Nathan Hale of course but only recently learned there was a spy ring of six individuals. The identity of one was not revealed until the 20th century and the identity of another is still unknown.

Finishing up as part of a group read:

by Jane Austen

Follow up for our Book of the month - All the light we cannot see group read:

by Anthony Doerr