The Sword and Laser discussion

I'm 39% of the way through A Dance of Cloaks, and I think that's enough for me. (Symptom #1: When I calculate the exact percentage of the book I'm reading so I can see how much closer I am to the end.)

Reasons to Lem:
1.) Unlikable characters. Every character is either mercenary, scheming, corrupt, or a badass, or some combination of the four.

2.) Uninteresting setting. The 'faceless women' are kind of interesting, but everything else points to a bog-standard fantasy world.

3.) Utterly humorless. It's grimdark all the time.

4.) At 39% in, we still haven't gotten to the plot promised by the blurb on the back cover. This strikes me as a Bad Sign.

5.) Every other scene is a murder party. Guards are apparently disposable commodities who can be dispatched without consequence.

6.) Along with this one, I have Hounded and Peacemaker both on loan, both of which I need to read before they're due back, and both of which I'd rather be reading.

Reasons to Finish:
1.) I don't rate books I don't finish, so to get good feedback from Goodread's algorithm, I'll need to finish & rate it.

2.) To analyze it more closely, and figure out more specifically what I don't like about it, and how I would improve it.

3.) It's not as bad as The Sheep Look Up. But then, what is? ;)

4.) Nothing wrong with the writing style; the prose is light & easy to read.

5.) Maybe it gets better?


So what do you all think? To lem, or not to lem?

Why not lem and rate it one star, for didn't like it?

Ben wrote: "Why not lem and rate it one star, for didn't like it?"

I certainly could, but I'd prefer not to. I feel that it's more fair to an author to finish reading their work before rating it.

Well if you can finish, give it two stars. When it gets to the point where you can't take it one more minute, then it gets lemmed.

Pôl wrote: "5.) Maybe it gets better?"

Ha, I used this reasoning until I reached the 78% mark. Once I reached that point, I couldn't reconcile not finishing it.

Judging by your pros and cons, it seems to me that you've already decided to lem this one.

I agree, this one isn't catching my interest. Time to lem methinks.

Life is too short for bad books. Well, at least one you're clearly not enjoying. I say lem it, especially because there are other books you'd rather be reading.

I think it's more than fair to give an unfinished book one star if you wuit because you disliked it. If you include a short review about why you quit, you've created something that is very useful to fellow readers. Remember, ratings are subjective and bad ratings are as useful, if not more so than high ratings.

For myself, I only read the prologue. Then, three of my holds became available on Overdrive from my library. I have had three weeks to read all three, so this month's book is on indefinite pause.

I wish I had

None of the things you mentioned change. Except the plot happens. Mostly?

Veronica wrote: "None of the things you mentioned change. Except the plot happens. Mostly?"

Veronica, I must have missed that part. ;)

Pôl, my advice, since you asked for it, is to Lem this stinker and move on to the other books you've got waiting for you. At 39%, I'd feel comfortable rating a book I couldn't get into.

And not to sound trite, but I get this all the time, so I thought I'd share: Life is too short to read books you don't like.

To play devil's advocate for a moment here: I do think that there's value in finishing a book regardless of whether you like it or not. Part of the point of a book group is having the shared experience of reading together, and having a common frame of reference for discussion. As the saying goes, if you don't vote, you don't get to complain about the government; similarly, if you don't finish the book, you don't get to rant about it in the forums.*

Also, it's valuable to analyze *why* you don't like a book. By paying attention to what works for you and what doesn't, you can better articulate your own tastes. And, if you're a writer, recognizing those flaws helps you avoid the same pitfalls in your own work.

And finally, if you are a writer, it really can help the writing process to sometimes read bad books. There's nothing better for the ego than reading a published work and realizing that you could, in fact write it better.

And now I'm going to ignore everything I just said, and dump "Cloaks" for something tastier. :) If I happen to have time to get back to "Cloaks" before it's due back, maybe I'll give it another shot. If not, well, I think I can live with that. Thanks for the feedback, all!


*Actually it's totally OK to rant about it in the forums. Go crazynuts.

I didn't Lem it; mostly because I'm incapable of lemming anything (If I can finish Mists of Avalon...) But this one, like Ancillary Justice, offered nothing. No likable characters, no plot hook, no fleshed out system of magic or world building of any kind. Then, at around 70%, a plot begins to form, only to be abruptly cut off at a seemingly arbitrary point.

I almost wonder if Dalglish wrote one long book and his publisher went, 'No, no, no. It has to be a trilogy! That's like, a genre thing.' And then just randomly grabbed the top of the stack and said, 'Here, this is book 1!'

I'm going to keep plodding through... I started feeling somewhat engaged around the halfway point, although the author keeps on adding complexity without really advancing the narrative. Not nearly the best book I've read, but not the worst, either.

Also, what's with all these guilds running around flying colors... What about the first rule of Fight Club? :)

Doug wrote:

Also, what's with all these guilds running around flying colors... What about the first rule of Fight Club? :)

Hehehe, indeed. It kind of reminds me of "Gangs of New York", but there at least the gang members had the sense to avoid the law.

Nancy Pearl, luminary of readers' advisory (the fancy term we librarians use for "recommending books"), has something she calls the Rule of Fifty:

People frequently ask me how many pages they should give a book before they give up on it. In response to that question, I came up with my “rule of fifty,” which is based on the shortness of time and the immensity of the world of books. If you’re fifty years of age or younger, give a book fifty pages before you decide to commit to reading it or give it up. If you’re over fifty, which is when time gets even shorter, subtract your age from 100—the result is the number of pages you should read before making your decision to stay with it or quit. Since that number gets smaller and smaller as we get older and older, our big reward is that when we turn 100, we can judge a book by its cover!

Doug wrote: "Also, what's with all these guilds running around flying colors... What about the first rule of Fight Club? :) "

In fairness, criminal gangs do wear identifying clothing in the real world, e.g. the Crips or the Hell's Angels.

C'mon... The Hells Angels are just a bunch of 'motorcycle enthusiasts.' ;)

Doug wrote: "C'mon... The Hells Angels are just a bunch of 'motorcycle enthusiasts.' ;)"

That's right, the MC in Hells Angels MC stands for 'Motorcycle Club':)

There's an even bigger group that meet all the requirements for the police definition of a gang... the police themselves :)

My personal "book challenge" for the year was to keep up with all the Sword and Laser picks. This one... just isn't doing it for me. At all. Don't care about the characters. Don't care about the world. Don't care about the plot. Stuff happens, but I just don't care. I am determined to finish it... But it is really hard when I have shelves of stuff that is bound to be better (ha - book pun!). And I was so excited to read this one too! It was highly recommended to me by someone at a book signing. It is not living up to the hype. At all. So tempted to lem it. So. Darned. Tempted!

I lemmed it, then rated it.

I'm a BAD girl.

Well, I didn't lem it but GOD it was painful. I'll never get those hours back... What a terrible ending, too.

The only reason I didn't lem this book was out of respect of the S&L sponsor who paid enough on kickstarter to be able to make the pick. I hope his own book is better...

I returned it to the library today, so consider it lemmed. Here's a bit from my review:

* * *

I do think I figured out the way this book is supposed to be read, though, and that's "as fast as possible". I don't mean that disparagingly. There are some books that should be read at a slow or moderate pace, in order to pick up on nuanced meaning, become immersed in the world, or luxuriate in the use of language. And while I love that stuff, there's something to be said for a clean, straightforward read. Some books are winding country roads, inviting you to stop and admire the scenery. A Dance of Cloaks, on the other hand, is the Autobahn, inviting you to floor the accelerator and enjoy the thrill of the ride. By speeding through you might miss a few details or occasionally lose track of the plot, but never to the extent that the story becomes confusing. This is a good one to read that way.

* * *

So yeah, I think if I had thrown caution to the wind and just raced through it, I would have enjoyed it more. It's a good technique to remember in case I ever find myself reading anything similar.

Buzz said:
Well, I didn't lem it but GOD it was painful. I'll never get those hours back... What a terrible ending, too.
I have to agree on that, too. What a terrible ending. The author had no intention to give it a closure, anyone with enough guts will have to get the next book to understand the aftermath of the final battle.

I'm afraid I lammed it. I got to page 10. I lemmed the last S&W club pick too, unfortunately.

I always feel bad when I lem a book, but I know it's not working for me when I keep wanting to put it down because there's some other book that keeps drawing me instead.

I just picked up the S&W Anthology and I'm really looking forward to starting that! Yay, short stories!

Yeah I think you are meant to read it quick,its like an action movie, and some of those fight scenes are pretty good. I found that it was possible to just read the dialogue in some scenes and skip all the narrative, and that was enough to know what was going on ...

Pôl wrote: "I'm 39% of the way through A Dance of Cloaks, and I think that's enough for me. (Symptom #1: When I calculate the exact percentage of the book I'm reading so I can see how much closer I am to the e..."

I felt that it was an "ok" story. Way too much on the violence, which normally do not mind. Sometimes I felt as if the author tried to mimic Martin with how they disposed of characters. Unlike Martin, I do not feel compelled to read the others. Luckily I only spent 2 dollars on this book so I feel as if for the money it was a good purchase. I would have hated to pay full price for this though.

As it was a S&L pick I didn't LEM it but in retrospect I should have. Agree with all of the OP points except Reason to Finish #5 - the answer is no:)