A Song of Ice and Fire - A Chapter a day discussion
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12/23/15 - Chapter 15: Jon II
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Whew! I've had a busy Christmas, sorry for responding late. Your point 4, you're right, I hadn't noticed Ygritte doesn't seem to push him at all. I think she sends many hints but won't make the first move. I don't think it's because he's a crow so it must be hard for him, more like she wants the man to make the first move.
Your point 14, yes, Jarl was with Val. I forgot how much better he is to Jon versus Styr and Rattleshirt.
1. Tormund shows Jon the giants and mammoths that have the rear and Jon tries to count them all. There are hundreds of them, all coming down the Milkwater. His horse and even Ghost shies away from them, they are so intimidating. This is Jon’s first encounter with them; they’re nothing like he pictured from Old Nan’s stories. In this world, giants are about 14 feet tall and are really hairy, more bear-like than human. They use their noses more than their eyes. They wear no clothes because they’re already covered in wooly hair, and carry clubs, no swords.
2. Apparently Tormund speaks the Old Tongue, that’s what giants speak, as well as the First Men. It is a harsh language, I imagine it must resemble Scandinavian. According to Tormund, giants have no kings. I like when Tormund tells Jon he must be itching to kneel to someone. Tormund says he told the giant he just spoke to a friendly insult and the giant did the same thing back, asking if Jon was his daughter, lol. He’d never seen a man with no beard before. Cute.
3. Jon’s new cloak is made out of sheepskins and is heavy, to keep the warmth in I’m sure. Jon keeps his black cloak under his saddle, though.
4. Seems Tormund enjoys embellishing his stories, and he has a lot it seems. Jon particularly wants to know why Tormund is called the Horn-blower; he is called many things but that one intrigues Jon. He doesn’t give a story for that one, though, not yet anyway. Apparently the Horn of Winter was blown once by a man named Joramun who woke giants from the earth. I can’t remember much of this folklore, but I’d love to learn more about it. Jon is curious about this horn Mance is searching for.
5. Ha! Tormund tells Jon Ygritte wants him bad. Jon can tell, and half the wildlings can too, lol. Jon blushes and tries to hide it but Tormund is so funny, he won’t stop embarrassing Jon. Ygritte follows Jon almost everywhere he goes in Tormund’s war band. I’ll bet it’s way better following Tormund than Rattleshirt. It’s cute how she cuddles up with him every night, until he has Ghost sleep with him. I think it’s interesting how knights and their ladies might share a bed but keep a sword between them for honor’s sake. Tormund pries Jon about why he won’t fuck her. He can’t give the reason it’s against the Night’s Watch code, so he uses other lame reasons. Then Jon says if he had a child by her it’d be a bastard, and we know how very against fathering bastards he is. Tormund challenges Jon, asking are bastards weaker than other children? Jon admits they aren’t. Then Tormund says once the seed is planted it’s not the man’s place to say what a woman should do with it. Jon once again spits out with revulsion that he’ll never father a bastard. It’s incredibly important to him; I remember he vehemently said the same thing to his Uncle Benjen in the beginning of the series. It must be important to the story if it keeps coming up. It would be ironic if he ends up fathering a bastard despite how against he is about it. I guess condoms don’t exist yet.
6. Tormund asks why did Jon steal Ygritte then if he didn’t want to fuck her and Jon’s response is he didn’t steal her. It’s kind of funny, their cultural differences. To the wildlings, stealing a girl from her tribe is romantic and the proper way to bed a girl. It sounds horrible at first, but that’s where we get our honeymoon from. And most wildling women are turned on by how clever and strong the man is, so it’s not rape. Jon is taken aback; he never considered it stealing. He asked her to yield and she was his prisoner...turns out she was turned on by this and now she wants him bad. Lol, Tormund asks if Jon is sure they never castrated him. :) He says if a man never uses his member it shrinks until it disappears.
7. After this amusing conversation Jon can tell why the Seven Kingdoms think wildlings are like animals. They have no decency, or honor. Despite this, Jon likes Tormund anyway. He also likes Longspear and Ygritte, then forces himself not to think of her. Awe. :) Can I just say how funny I think this situation is? Usually it’s the girl trying to hold on to her virginity and the guy who pushes her to give it up for him. Here Jon is the maid, lol. He struggles with his honor and it forces the topic of why it’s so important to Jon not to father a bastard. He still very much hates being one and would never put his children through that. His culture frowns upon it so there’s no surprise he feels that way. But to the free folk it’s no big deal at all. There are pros and cons for both cultures. In Dungeons and Dragons terms, the Seven Kingdoms are Lawful and the free folk are Chaotic. But there are equal good and bad people on both sides.
8. I forgot how Harma Dogshead got her name. She hates dogs so she kills one every day to keep a fresh head on her banner. Jon had only met Varamyr once so far, aka Sixskins, a warg who commands a snow bear, three wolves, a shadowcat, and something else (or maybe the sixth skin is himself?). As soon as Jon meets him he gets a very bad feeling about him, same with Ghost. Ha! He’s seen lots of things but so far hasn’t seen any snarks or grumpkins. Half these wildlings have never seen the Wall or speak the Common Tongue, but Mance knows the Old Tongue too. Though he doesn’t look like a king, Mance is definitely king material because he has united so many different clans all together for one purpose: attack the Seven Kingdoms.
9. So far Jon has no leads as to what this secret weapon Mance is looking for, or if he already has it and no one is saying anything. He hasn’t even seen Mance since their first meeting, interesting. He’s a busy guy, I guess.
10. Awe, Jon still thinks Bran and Rickon are at Winterfell. It’s been a while since he could receive any news. The column moves so damn slow. There’s so many people and their beasts of burden and belongings to carry. Jon hopes Jarman Buckwell or Thoren Smallwood’s groups made it safely back to the Fist to inform Mormont what’s coming. He’s sure the Old Bear will attack, no matter the numbers, and win. The free folk have no discipline.
11. Lol, Ghost always comes back to Jon, and so does Ygritte. She’s 19 years old, three years older than him, but shorter. She prefers a short bow and reminds Jon of Arya a little.
12. Tormund’s war band finishes singing ‘The Last of the Giants’ when out of nowhere that fucking eagle swoops down and attacks Jon from the sky, zomg! He falls off his horse and is bleeding in the mud while Ygritte defends him from the feathered fucker. The bird flies off and at first Jon thinks he lost an eye but Ygritte says it’s only blood. Rattleshirt comes riding up and claims the eagle, saying he’s here for the crow. Tormund gets in the way, saying he’ll have to kill him first, but Rattleshirt says he’s only here to deliver Jon to Mance, who wants him. Tormund gives him permission to go then. Jon’s face is bleeding like hell but he can see hate in the bird’s eyes.
13. Ygritte insists on coming with Jon and they gallop to where Mance is. The closer they get the colder it seems. I’ll bet that’s because of the Others. They’re at the Fist and Jon sees a raven sitting in a tree, quorking at him. Jon expected arrows to fly at them but there’s nothing, not even sound. At the bottom of the incline he sees dead horses in the snow. The wildlings scavenge what they can and Jon is told to go up to where Mance is.
14. Up top there are dead horses strewn across the ground everywhere and he has never seen so much pink snow. How horrible for Jon! There are a bunch of ravens eating the dead. Mance is with Jarl, Harma Dogshead, Styr, and Varamyr. He is very angry. He commands Jon to tell him the truth now or lose an eye. Poor Jon is at a loss of words. He is horrified and worried sick for Sam and Mormont, I’m sure. Mance commands him to tell him how many were there in total and Jon says the truth now, 300. He must not balk. Jon feels craven, but he is doing what he’s told, like Qhorin told him to do. Harma Dogshead says there are more dead horses to the east of the Fist, half buried in snow. A massacre happened here.
15. Mance commands him to say who led this party but Jon delays; he thinks he’s being sneaky going for his sword but Mance calls him out, saying he’ll give him over to Rattleshirt if he tries anything because he’s losing patience with him very fast. Ygritte urges him to answer. He’s not doing a good job looking like a turncloak right now. Jon feels he can’t play a turncloak without becoming one, but finally answers it was the Old Bear. Mance says he might have lost five of his own to every crow he killed and still come out the victor, but the undead are another matter. Now he knows why the undead left them alone for so long; they went after the crows instead. He orders his men to prepare for an attack from the Others; it’s clear they know fire is a good way to kill them.
16. Rattleshirt still wants to kill Jon, so sure he’s no turncloak, and Ygritte defends him, lol. She says he is too a turncloak; they have sex every night under his sheepskin cloak. This makes some of the free folk laugh and Mance asks if it’s true. Jon has no choice but to go along with it so he says yes. He hopes his father will forgive him, awe. Mance believes him and commands the two to go with Styr and Jarl in the morning to climb over the Wall and prove himself by helping them raid from the south.
17. Apparently Mormont is still alive because they never found his body. Mance hopes to get to the Wall before Mormont does; that’ll make it that much easier getting through the gates. Styr and Rattleshirt are left with Jon and stare at him with hatred but Jarl doesn’t seem so bad. I forgot Jon pulls his sword on Rattleshirt, telling him to back off or he’ll kill him. Rattleshirt goes to attack but stops when Ghost shows up. Perfect timing.
18. I really, really wish the show had kept this scene because it is so priceless. As they descend the Fist Jon tells Ygritte he never asked her to lie for him, but she says she never lied. She just left out the part of when they fuck. “Find another place for Ghost to sleep tonight, Jon Snow. It’s like Mance said. Deeds is truer than words.” Haha! She just blackmailed him into having sex. If he still refuses she’ll know he’s no turncloak. He’ll have to prove himself...under his sheepskin cloak. ;)
Don't worry! I hope you had a great day!About your point 4, I don't remember a lot either, but I am pretty sure there is more information at some point of the story, but I don't know if we get it in this book.
About your point 7, I found it funny too, but it was kinda cute at the same time. He blushes so much, lol.
Your point 12, the "feathered fucker" made me laugh so much! I guess we got used to call it the fucking eagle, lol.
2-Tormund was with Jon, and he could speak with them. I am guessing they speak the Old Tongue, but I can’t remember. Tormund said they had no kings, but he talked with Mag the Mighty, quite a name. Lol at Tormund’s comment about how Jon’s knees much inch for not kneeling so often. I forgot the giants had bad eyes. Mag asked Tormund if Jon was her daughter, lol, he said probably because Jon doesn’t have a beard, and Tormund thinks they never saw a man without one.
3-Jon has his new cloak, but still has the old one. I don’t know why they let him keep it, or maybe they don’t know. Tormund has quite some stories to tell, I forgot the one about the giant. Jon asks him why they call him Horn-Blower, and the answer has nothing to do with what Jon wants to know, about the Horn of Winter and Joramun, who we don’t know nothing about, only this horn seems to have wake to giants. This always interested me.
4-Tormund says Ygritte clearly wants to sleep with Jon. She and Longspear Ryk left Rattleshirt’s group, when Mance told Jon to ride with Tormund to avoid problems, which was a good idea. Jon spent most days and nights with her, she slept besides him and he got Ghost in the middle after that, lol. Ygritte says, not for the last time, he knows nothing. I do like, which I didn’t remember, she never seemed to push him, she was near him and all, but maybe she understood the vow Jon made and how hard it was for him.
5-Ygritte was a great beauty because of her red hair, she was kissed by fire, which brings luck. Jon likes her! It’s cute how he starts noticing small things. But he was a man of the Night’s Watch, so this couldn’t happen. It must be so hard for him, pretending to be one of them and trying not to feel things about her at the same time.
6-Tormund asked Jon about her, if he didn’t like her. He did, but he said he was too young to marry, to not speak about the vow. Jon doesn’t want to dishonor her, and could get her son, to which Tormund says he hopes so, but Jon doesn’t want to have a bastard. I liked Tormund said there’s nothing wrong about being one. Tormund asked why he stole her if he didn’t want her, but Jon didn’t know what he was doing. No one explain it to him, so how could he know?
7-Jon was growing fond of them, taking out of the Harma, Styr and Varamyr who sound brutal, and of course Rattleshirt. I thought most of the wildlings speak the Common Tongue, probably because of the show, but it seems they don’t. Mance spent years gathering all of them, and made peace between Harma and Rattleshirt which I forgot. Jon tries to find out about the power Mance is looking for, but if they found it, no one is talking about it.
8-Jon is willing to kill Mance if he has to, he is what keeps the wildlings together. This always interested me, how one man, a crow, could do this. He would kill him to protect the realm and the people he loves. I think he wouldn’t be happy about it, he half admired the man, and I think he was pretty impressed as well. And I liked him when they talked.
9-They were close to the Fist, and Jon knows Mormont is there, he is too old to go back, and will attack, which Jon wants. But he doesn’t know what happened. Despite the numbers, Jon thought the Old Bear had a chance, one in one hundred wildlings were mounted, and they had no discipline. He was pretty positive about it.
10-Ygritte is three years older than him, but she was shorter than him, and she reminded him of Arya. It seems they call spearwife to any woman who can fight, with whatever I guess, since Ygritte used a bow.
11-Ygritte starts singing “The Last of the Giants”, and soon a lot were singing. I really liked the song. I forgot Tormund had two sons and a daughter, who were singing as well. When the song finishes, she starts crying. Jon doesn’t understand why, he saw hundreds of them, but I guess they were far more before. The fucking eagle makes an appearance and attacks Jon right in the face. He thought he los tan eye, but Ygritte told him it was just blood. He was pretty fucked after the attack. I hate that eagle.
12-Rattleshirt was there to get him and Tormund, maybe thinking he wantes to hurt Jon defends him, which I really like. But Mance wanted him. Jon would get his wounds tended after seeing Mance. Ygritte went as well, and they were in the Fist, which was colder. Jon sees a bunch of dead horses, and realised the men were trying to get out. The snow was pink from all the blood, and no bodies were there. Jon wonders about Sam, and if he is one of the Others now. I was so worried!
13-When Mance looks at Jon, his look is grim and cold. He tells Jon to tell the truth, and how many they were. Jon says 300 of them, although it cost him quite a lot, and had to change to “us” to “them”. He was also asked who led them, and he thought of grabbing his sword, but Mance adviced him not to. This time was easier, and he said Mormont led, and Marsh was in Castle Black, and Mance thought they would win for sure. The King told Jon he can’t fight the dead, he knows. So, he has fight them, or at least see them. Mance wonders why the Others didn’t attack them, and I wonder why too. I don’t think the numbers stopped them. Interesting.
14-When things start to heat up, Ygritte steps up and says Jon and her slept together under his new cloak, when Rattleshirt wanted to kill him. I don’t know if Mance believes this, but for sure he wants to test Jon, and told them both to go over the Wall, with Jarl and Styr. Jarl was the one who was with Val I think.
15-Rattleshirt wanted to kill Jon, and started boasting how his wolf wasn’t there. I liked Ygritte is willing to fight as well, I think she just doesn’t want to fuck him, but actually cares about him. Ghost appears, and Rattlehirt goes. Jon told her he never asked her to lir for him, but she replies she never told when they started. So, she told him Ghost should find another place to sleep that night. After all, “deeds is truer than words.”