Our Shared Shelf discussion

Men go topless, nobody bats an eye.
Women do the same and everybody loses their minds.

Why is it that society reacts so differently when the same part of the body is shown by two different genders? Some men have boobs and some women are flat chested. But never is a guy condemned for showing his chest. As feminist, what is your stand to that reaction? Should women be given the same freedom as men to bare their chest or should this condition of modesty continue to plague womenkind?

Also, this discussion may branch out to the following topics.
- Slut shaming
- Breastfeeding in public
- Rights to abortion


Disclaimer : I am in no way insinuating that all women should go topless. But I believe that society should not judge a women differently when doing something a men could do without the same restrictions.

Women shouldn't be stigmatize for simply feeding their child. It's ridiculous.

oooh, you don't want to get me started on the breastfeeding in public issue XD

I do think that women should be allowed to go topless just like men, and they should be able to have that option. Idk about you but in the summer it gets really hot where I live and I would love to be able to just take off my shirt but I can't because of the issues it causes that aren't caused when a male decides to do the same.

That's because women are supposed to hide themselves from men, due to the fact that men are socially meant to treat them like garbage.

So, men opress women, and women must protect themselves, so they can't show their body. And then, if any woman breaks the status quo, everybody calls her a slut because that means she wants men to look at her. It's the perfect opression system. No matter what you do, you will be opressed.

So, what's the solution? Whatever society decides that it's ok to do, opression can't be a reason. If we all agree that wearing clothes is ok (which is the most reasonable option for lots of reason as hygiene, a little bit of intimity, body temperature control, fashion..) then nice. But don't go nuts if you see some boobs.

I think that breast feeding in public should be 100% accepted. The fact that it isn't has always confused me because you are feeding a child. Why should you have to hide to feed your child?

To comment on the topless argument, I think that neither men nor women should be able to. If women aren't able to then what gives men the right to?

Action is being taken for this, something which I find to be a good thing. It is called the "Free the Nipple" campaign.

What is "Free the Nipple"?
Free The Nipple is a film, an equality movement, and a mission to empower women across the world. We stand against female oppression and censorship, both in the United States and around the globe. Today, in the USA it is effectively ILLEGAL for a woman to be topless, breastfeeding included, in 35 states. In less tolerant places like Louisiana, an exposed nipple can take a woman to jail for up to three years and cost $2,500 in fines. Even in New York City, which legalized public toplessness in 1992, the NYPD continues to arrest women. We’re working to change these inequalities through film, social media, and a grassroots campaign.

The Movement
Free The Nipple has become a “real life” equality movement that’s sparked a national dialogue. Famous graffiti artists, groups of dedicated women, and influencers such as Miley Cyrus, Liv Tyler, and Lena Dunham have shown public support which garnered international press and created a viral #FreeTheNipple campaign. The issues we’re addressing are equal rights for men and women, a more balanced system of censorship, and legal rights for all women to breastfeed in public.

The Facts
Over 75 years ago it was illegal in all 50 states of America for men to be ‘Shirtless’ on a beach. A small dedicated group fought the puritanical status quo, the police and the courts. After several arrests and protests men finally won their basic human right to be ‘TOPLESS’ in public in 1936. Today there are 37 states in the USA that still arrest women for this same freedom, in some states that even includes breastfeeding.

An article you can read about real life woman taking action for this cause can be found here.

I don't think I will say anything here that hasn't already been said wonderfully by someone else. I will say I thoroughly support the #FreeTheNipple campaign. I'm a guy and I still glare at the cismen with jealous envy for being able to go topless in the sweltering summer, but because MY chest is still like a female's, because I've not gotten any surgery (and thus MUST get surgery to go shirtless like my cismen compatriots) therefore I cannot get away with going shirtless myself. Any tight clothing (or anything NOT baggy) will show my body shape and thus make me irredeemably a female and treated (and harassed) as such when I am really a man inside. It is extremely galling and that's not even getting CLOSE to the tip of the iceberg of this whole damn injustice of "men can be topless but women cannot," deal.

Seriously why the heck are people so inflamed by seeing a damn nipple on a boob, even if the woman is feeding her BABY of all things?! Why were they so damn conservative towards seeing a man's chest to begin with in the early 1900's that they actually had to fight for men's right to be topless? Well there's unfinished work still to do, fighting for women's right to be topless. Then, finally, we may see everybody - no matter their gender - being able to go shirtless whenever they need to (do to hotness or whatever), not to mention breastfeeding without all that stupid cultural shaming, AND the slut-shaming should go down quite a bit too if seeing a woman's chest is somehow not "slutty" anymore.

Unfortunately, until we really get at the cause of women's sexuality being OKAY for goodness sake, remove the victim-blaming culture, and thoroughly enforce and raise up men to know that rape is horribly wrong and DON'T DO IT, then the slutshaming rape culture we have going in America (IDK about different parts of the world but from the sound of it, many can be quite bad too) would finally start loosing its stranglehold and power and might fade away as a bad dream.

Anyways just my thoughts on the matter. I love the book groups on here where we can talk about such things in a calm and discussion format and maturely as well. :) Yay!

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/health/smart...

Just another example of woman being treated differently to men when shirtlessness is involved. I commented on the article with the tag #FreetheNipple.

I absolutely agree with the views and opinions listed above by fellow feminists. Just because women have two lumps of fat on their chest (which is basically what breasts are anyway) and men have either smaller lumps of fat, or none at all, shouldn't mean that women aren't allowed to be topless in public.

#FreeTheNipple

It's been legal to go topless in Ontario since 1991. However, it's still frowned upon by most onlookers and many women who would otherwise exercise this right don't out of fear.

In a society that blames victims and questions "What was she wearing?", where street harassment is a daily occurrence and even our shoulder blades have been sexualized we choose to continue to cover up to prevent potential threats.

I have witnessed women confident enough to push these beliefs, and exercise their rights. It has been nearly 25 years since it has been legalized here and it feels as if there wasn't a real breakthrough. It's a body part that shouldn't have been sexualized in the first place and I strongly believe #freethenipple is needed until that level of equality truly does exist and isn't just on paper. But check your local laws and be certain it isn't just a subject people avoid, it may shock you!!!

I suspect part of the stance against female topless bans is that a bodily fluid can come from a female nipple. Society generally sees fluids coming openly from bodies as something vulgar.

I don't think it should having said that.The real absurdity is that society is happy to see female breasts, but gets offended if a woman feeds her child in public.

I think western society has foolishly and erroneously sexualised female breasts. The natural function of breasts is to suckle young. Maybe I take this stance because I'm atheist and see humans as nothing more than an unusually intelligent animal, but seriously, female breasts are for producing milk and feeding young, That shouldn't be something we can't bear to see. I blame the victorians and the churches of the world for distorting the way we see our bodies.

The whole way men and women are expected to present themselves differently and are held to different standards is quite absurd. One chromosome, and we're supposed to treat females as almost a different species? It's crazy.

There is very simple explanation for this through the REI. So I suggest that anyone who would like to understand my writing, read the explanation of REI here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

The way we see today women parts of bodies is actually very mixed with our perception in mind. The Emotions who relay on open minded thinking can easily show their body parts, also if you think good enough, men can show their genitals also. This is connected with the thinking of Emotions (mostly men) and this is also the reason why are they having more "rosy view" on the world.

The second reason is that, before our today society values (which are Reason values), there has dominated Emotion with his rules. Therefore in the middle age of our time, the women and men were having free intercourse with each other and the sexuality was not a tabu and hiding as in today values of Reason.

When we cross from one society values to others, there is a lot of changes, which can be compared between. So for example the Emotion who has sexuality in his hands by every human, was back then in middle age, more free and nobody thinks back then, that something like showing your genitals in public were exhibition but rather normal. In todays values of Reason, the meaning of sexuality is more and more suppressed. This shows also with porn industry which is only Emotions counter resistance, in the world, that cannot accept themselves in. Reason does not see any motivation in sexuality, so it forbids it with the rules like, "not before wedding, not with many people, or that is a sin to do something like that". This is only Reason suppress, as he only understand that when he suppress the Emotion values, he gains more power. And in today world, Reason has all the power in his hands!

The third reason, why women does not show their body parts freely around is, that the Instinct, which is third mind, that we all posses, and mostly women mind, is more pessimistic and wants to be more safe. So in the name of safeness, they do not talk about themselves a lot, they do not expose themselves, and they are more carefully with what they say. So with the comparison to todays values in world, the woman, which don't respect Reason values, can easily feel embarrassed. So women (Instincts) actually don't show their body parts, because of Reasons values. More likely will show those women, who think with Emotion.

Why do men (Emotion) get crazy if they see a naked women? Sexuality is Emotions natural mechanism. The sexuality with Emotions begins way before, than in bed. So with the Reason suppressing the Emotion values in today world, men who think with Emotion can't wait that it happens. Actually sexuality is suppressed somewhere so much, that all kind of other actions happens, because Emotion cannot meet his own satisfaction. As Emotion is known to resolve problems with resolving quasi problems.

The one thing is also with Emotions true. They are attracted to someone who is hard to reach. And that Is a Instinct (women, opposite character), and a true nature law, why we are attracted to women, and women to men. Actually there is 12 characters which create 6 perfect couples, as only together, they can be complete and only together they can see the truth. So the ranking goes like this, Emotion cannot be attracted to family members (answer to incest), then people who sees them every day and other surrounding family members, to the same thinking people Emotions (which are only good for hanging out - friends), and the last are those with (opposite) Reasons thinking or Instincts thinking. Because Instinct is the one who behaves very careful, this brings out Emotions competition and challenge, to reach what is the most hard to get. And more unreachable the female is, more satisfaction can Emotion experience. This is also an answer to, why men are attracted to famous actresses ;)

So nature law is never wrong ;)

Albana wrote: "Many people may have already said this before but anyway I'm going to add my own words too. As for the topless topic, I don't think that we've made it this far to discuss if women are allowed to do..."

Your world and your own opinion is only yours. The problem is that you try to satisfy all around you. This is however not possible! You don't have nothing to tell anyone or any boy, to change their mind. You have to change alone, to feel more comfortable and to leave those others opinions at side. Your world is beautiful and you and you alone are the master of it. If you're going to try live how others want, you're going to be only dissatisfied with yourself all your life.

Let me explain differently. The society that we today live in hardly prefer whats commonly accepted. The beauty, the behaviour, the intellectuality, being reach, being famous, being more than others. Those motives are all over our society, which convince you at every corner of your life. The girls are even more subjected to those mechanisms, as they were born in world of this values.

You must understand that those clothes and ability to dress like other say, those are only the masks. There is a lot of human on this planet and only three main motives of them, drives this way of life. To please others and to be as close as possible to common world sense. But there is one problem with that, ... The problem is that those sense, does not correspond to human thinking, so if people dress good, try to think this way. They wanted to make a difference in theirselves, with the help and feedback of others. But this does not work. You can make the difference only within yourself and you don't have to proof nobody ever! ;) The good book that will restore, and I believe also the only, your faith and confidence is psi

And yes, there is something strong enough, the book that I have just mentioned! ;) But that we change these kind of bullying, a lot of people will have to change, and we will have to wait a lot of time. But I however started, and will not stop.

I hope this helps! ;) Have a great day!

- Tad

Tadej wrote: "Your world and your own opinion is only yours. The problem is that you try to satisfy all around you. This is however not possible! You don't have nothing to tell anyone or any boy, to change their mind."
Tadej, this is one of the reasons we are here. It's not enough to change yourself if the society you live in does not treat you as an equal person with equal rights. Getting to the fundamentals, the very roots of the problem has to go outside the individual or there can be no equality, no justice. As long as there is inequality in our society, there needs to be collective action against that equality. It's not something an individual can do alone.

Jo wrote: "Tadej wrote: "Your world and your own opinion is only yours. The problem is that you try to satisfy all around you. This is however not possible! You don't have nothing to tell anyone or any boy, t..."

Jo, thanks for replying.

Yes, I know that all! But there is a catch. Even though I am working with human thinking and I know now how people can be changed, it is quite hard. But, not impossible!

The truth is that we people live as there is nothing to change in ourselves and this was my though also. But I missed out a lot of negativism that I was the source of. If I say that 97% of people have this same idealism, this sounds crazy unbelievable, but it is the truth.

The idea that some individual cannot do anything is very dangerous. This is however one of the minds thinking. I realised that this is however not true, as when individual finds his way of life, the way to happiness, to his own wishes, this individual changes. And when he or she changes, then there is a new rain drop that is very important for the sea or lake, as he can than affect others. He knows that his life is beautiful and he is master of his own living. He knows that others has his own view on the life and that this has nothing to do with his own meaning. He knows that no news, no media, is right as it is he who dictates to his own life. But if he does not think with his own life, he wanted to satisfy other people, he would be only a puppet.

The problem is that we have replaced our confidence with something outside of us. And this way the change in us cannot work.

Believe me, thinking that you cannot do anything is very dangerous and it is something that gave power to the society. And because those thinking was sooo long active, we have now our way of life. I do not say, that everything can be changed, no, we do not have impact on everything, but with our words, we can get to someone who has a big impact, to rethink our idea, our theory and to spread it further.

I can asure you, that even if some individual discovers an medicine for cancer or HIV, it is hardly possible that the world will listen. As the world is autonomic economical machine which fuel is money and does not need any instant solutions.

I am saying this to you as a promotor of first theory, that eliminates dyslexia with children successfully, and there is hardly any interests from academic side. Sadly, but true, ... The world is money and with the money we cannot achieve peace nor equality. The only thing that will do this is, the model that explains women and men, and that we start to behave "acceptable" to ourselves, as 2/3 of our behaviour is connected with unconscious two minds, which we don't teach any good maners anymore.

- Tad

I believe that every gender should have the right to show his/her body, no matter how you look.
The main problem is that culture impacts the way we are raised: "a woman cannot show her body" is a standard everyone is used to and that's why we're always so shocked when a woman walks topless on the beach.
I think it's our task (as feminists) to tell the world that being proud of your body is not a shame, wheter you're a woman or a man.
-> This is what I think about it, maybe you see it totally different, but let me know because I really want to know how people see this opinion to be honest.

-Simon <3

Eric wrote: "I think it shouldn't be forbidden, but in most parts of the world the female breasts are a sexually symbol. So it will always be a diffrent between female breasts and male breasts. People will alwa..."
Eric, I would take issue with the assumption that because society has made women's breasts something to entertain and sexually stimulate men, that it is natural. I'd love an example of female breasts being regarded as sexual in 'wildlife' - they're not. They are for feeding babies, not sexually stimulating the male of the species. Only humans regard female nudity as shameful, that female breasts are for males to gaze at and be entertained by and that public breastfeeding is indecent. Just because something has 'always' been doesn't mean it has to continue to be so.

Jo wrote: "Tadej wrote: "Your world and your own opinion is only yours. The problem is that you try to satisfy all around you. This is however not possible! You don't have nothing to tell anyone or any boy, t..."

I definitely agree that if someone is not being treated equally we should do something. Society, in general, is made of very different people both physically and mentally. As a whole, we have to come up with way to create a safe space for everyone. And that has meant that we have kept things private that are completely natural. It doesn't mean that someone is lesser because of it, just that someone feels triggered by it.

Jessica wrote: "Jo wrote: "Tadej wrote: "Your world and your own opinion is only yours. The problem is that you try to satisfy all around you. This is however not possible! You don't have nothing to tell anyone or..."


Very good replay!

We have idealised the beauty, love, the fame, the needs, we are having hospitals, where we go to, when we are seek, and we have schools, where we have to go, when we are enough old. It seems that there is established a system, that seems we have to follow, and that people will try to convince us, that is the only true path of life.

I do not say that we have to change everything! Far from it! I just want to see someday that people would use love in relationship not in commercials, that the fame would not be only mask for people who want to become something and are only competing with others. I want to see a day, where every human can decide what he wants and the day, where social regime would be the way, that everyone who were born would somehow, with his abilities that it has with his character, contribute to human kind, so it would be a little better than before their birth.

The school system should be changed too, but not completely, the teachers should be aware that there are different characters of people, not the only one, who get good grades. Actually someone who can do a great in physics, has no problem to come to best addresses out there, but someone who is good at sports, will stay for the same system under average, because he would not talk the language of mathematics and physics.

Also the health is today so idealised, that it comes to situations where people seek help with money and expensive operations. This should never happen in human history, just because the money is humans product, the health on the other hand, is Gods or intelligent above us, or however you call this force above you, as health is a right given to everyone. The idea about health has been so changed, that we believe that it isn't more in our hands, but, that the doctors have all the answers. This is world spinning counterclockwise.

The human values from family, happiness, friendship, to relationship, trust, respect, marriage and love, is only used in advertising purposes. The people are more and more saturated with all those words, with all the possible directions, until the day, that we forget about their meaning.

And yes, today we keep more and more things private, not to dare to do, what we feel, because this is just different from what the society has accepted. The most natural things are kept totally private. And yes those triggers will be more and more expressed, because the rules of nowadays society are getting more and more strict. This is what limits people in their behaviour, living, expressing. And human without an option of meeting their wishes, become dissatisfied, and dissatisfied humans cannot think what can change with them. And this gives the power to common world.

I do not see problem with topless people, neither should anyone, but before capitalism, there were very hard established men values, and capitalism, did not entirely eliminate all those "men desires" from today society, yet. In the same way I can speak for women values, which are very under pressure from todays established regime.

- Tad

I saw a news article on a woman told off for breastfeeding in public. Because women are sexualised, woman's breasts are sexualised, and it isn't fair. Breastfeeding is natural and normal to do, you should be able to do so anywhere, without judgment.

If women want to expose their breast then that is their choose...but don't be surprised if people look at those women who are exposing their breast. That is their choose as well...It is really as simple as that.
I have talked to a couple of women who have breast feed and they both have said that they preferred to breast feed in a privet place away from people. 1.Because they didn't want the attention for them or their child. 2. It was a personal private moment between them as mothers and their child. 3. It simply wasn't anyone else business.
They went on to say when they did have to breast feed in a less then private place they had a small blanked and or had a bottle of breast milk on the ready. To them it was good planning. They Knew the feeding suedual of their child and prepared for it...Their words not mine.
I don't really see why this is such a big issue. At work they even set aside a space for a new mother to breast feed and pump milk if and when she needed it.
I don't feel this is really an issue.
If women just want to go around topless then go ahead...I believe that most do not...Or is it you want to force men to wear tops at all times... That's not really anyones choose but their own and good luck with trying to force them....but what do I know I'm just a guy.
I do know that if a women walked down the street topless or naked that it would be appealed or at least met with acceptance. If a man walked down the street naked or with his genitals out he would be arrested and charged as a sex offender. If he walked down the street in his underwear he would meet the same arrest or at least receive the scrutiny of a sexual predator.
If a women poses naked she is called brave. Not because she did anything really brave like save a person, fight a war, protect a society, but simply because she decided that she would sit naked. I'm sorry that's not brave, Amy Shumer, it's more egotistical and smacks of wanting attention.
I saw this topic and I couldn't reseist commenting, this is ridiculous. But hey girls If you want to go out without a shirt go ahead...There are so many more important issues to talk about.
Real issues.

James wrote: "If women want to expose their breast then that is their choose...but don't be surprised if people look at those women who are exposing their breast. That is their choose as well...It is really as s..."

People can care about more than one thing at a time. Just because people are debating about #freethenipple doesn't mean they don't care about rape and suicide, look at the other threads.

Elizabeth wrote: "James wrote: "If women want to expose their breast then that is their choose...but don't be surprised if people look at those women who are exposing their breast. That is their choose as well...It ..."

This is true, people can care about many things but it still doesn't change that is is really kind of a non issue...Are their Nazi SS (Schutzstaffel; Protection Squadrons) arresting women who show breast in public..."Hey Frauen put those "Brüste" away."
Come on Elizabeth in your heart of hearts do really believe this to be a real problem?

You guys know that if you don't engage he will get bored and cease to say crap, don't you?

#Freethenipple

I personally think this is an important issue. I've seen the amount of harassment that arises over breastfeeding in public, the harassment of what woman wear and how many woman are put down and insulted and mistreated because they want to wear less because its hot out and god forbid they don't want to wear a long sleeve turtleneck to cover all the body parts that others sexualize and get a heat stroke. And don't even get me started on the breastfeeding issue and how some people demand that you feed your infant child in a bathroom, a place that you would never eat in? I've seen woman who have a blanket covering their breast get harassed and put down and insulted for feeding their child because they were hungry.


that's just my input on this topic ^-^ I don't think i've commented here yet but I believe its an issue

Adam wrote: "You guys know that if you don't engage he will get bored and cease to say crap, don't you?"

Well adam if people choose to respond to me then I will respond back and in a respectful way..if they don't then I won't... My comments are not based on wanting people to respond. They are just that, a common about the issue presented, not about the people commenting. My point was I don't think that this is an issue, or not one that can't be solved in everyday life. If you disagree then you can say why you do, That is a discussion. I may have put it a little more blunt then you would like but I don't think I was out of line with that option.

Adam wrote: "You guys know that if you don't engage he will get bored and cease to say crap, don't you?"

I guess now from the fact that he jumped straight to nazi jokes that this guy is in fact a troll? More's the pity. I wasn't aware.

Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, you don't deserve me at my Aragorn wrote: "#Freethenipple

I personally think this is an important issue. I've seen the amount of harassment that arises over breastfeeding in public, the harassment of what woman wear and how many woman are ..." Who dose this harassing of women and what they wear? Can you give some examples. Because from my experience as a man, and that is all I have a male view, heterosexual men don't care about what women wear. Most of the time heterosexual men don't even care what each other wear. You know who dose care about what clothes women wear? Other women, and other women will shame eachother...which is my experience... know if your talking about women in the middle east or third world countries I would completely agree with you. I have yet to see breastfeeding being treated in the way you presented it. In fact in most places people are bending over backwards to provide for pregnant or new mothers. Once again in western countries. If we are talking about third world countries then that becomes part of a bigger issue of women's rights.
I just don't see the outcry over women's boobs...the majority of men don't mind...really, we think boobs are ok.

Elizabeth wrote: "Adam wrote: "You guys know that if you don't engage he will get bored and cease to say crap, don't you?"

I guess now from the fact that he jumped straight to nazi jokes that this guy is in fact a ..."

I was trying to tell a joke to lighten the mood. Sorry if you took it negatively. Really both my siblings have newborns and small children under 3 years old, also I work with a mother with a newborn. I see most of society in public, in the workplace, and any other place going out of the way to help and provide for mothers and children. It is really quite a great thing to see. As for women wearing clothes, if a women or girl let's others shame her on what not to wear, then she needs to work on her own self esteem. I know that sounds hard but strong independent people don't care what others people think. In other words if they don't like it the hell with them.

Elizabeth wrote: "Adam wrote: "You guys know that if you don't engage he will get bored and cease to say crap, don't you?"

I guess now from the fact that he jumped straight to nazi jokes that this guy is in fact a ..."

I still think that Nazies that hate breastfeeding and breast are funny

James wrote: "Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, you don't deserve me at my Aragorn wrote: "#Freethenipple

I personally think this is an important issue. I've seen the amount of harassment that arises..."

@James do take a look at this video here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOEHR...

It was a social experiment done where somehow a woman who was breast feeding was treated with stigma as compared to the model who was showing equal, if not more, amount of breast. Now you can argue that the video was edited to show that the woman breast feeding was stigmatized on purpose but the only real way to find out is to conduct that experiment yourself.

Also, you are right about there being greater issues to worry about such as war, hunger and global warming. However, it can't be denied that the freedom to breast feed in public is still an issue to mothers all around the world. If you haven't read the Group Rules yet, it is stated in the very first line that "Our Shared Shelf is a Feminist book club..". In other words, the issues that we talk about are related to feminism. If you want to talk about greater issues, I would suggest that you join other book clubs (maybe religious, green energy or etc) that you may vent better your frustrations.

@Adam I don't see anything wrong with James' post this time aside from the fact that he debated against the topless equality being a major issue. There was no insults or etc that broke the group rules. He could be a "troll" as you called it, or perhaps he was just playing devil's advocate (something which I do sometimes because it helps us learn and understand more about an issue by looking at it from a different perspective. But I would usually put a disclaimer there beforehand as a personal preference). If you think he is wrong, just debate against him or agree to disagree. Let the mods handle the rest.

@Elizabeth Same thing which I said to Adam. I think it was great when you replied earlier saying that people can care about more then one issue at a time. It was a very valid and reasonable point. But I felt a little bit disappointed in your second post where all you did was degrade James simply because he had a different point of view then you.

Ah that's the video I was looking for! My computer crashed so I wasn't able to reply but that was what I was going to post a link to

Jing Wen wrote: "James wrote: "Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, you don't deserve me at my Aragorn wrote: "#Freethenipple

I personally think this is an important issue. I've seen the amount of harassme..."

Jing Wen wrote: "James wrote: "Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, you don't deserve me at my Aragorn wrote: "#Freethenipple

I personally think this is an important issue. I've seen the amount of harassme..."

Thank you for the video link and the kind words.
I will remain objective with this video, but at the same time will hold it with some doubt as well. I think this because these types of videos can so easily be manipulated by editing or made up in entirely based on the video makers desired outcome. I have seen this with a number of different videos on all different subjects so as a general rule take them with a grain of salt. That is why I don't take the undercover planned parenthood abortion video's as truth either, to give one example. I need reliable proof,studies, and reliable sources. Reliable sources are getting harder and harder to come by too. Just look at the journalistic coverage in gamergate.
My opinion on this video is that it was staged. Which is a problem with any kind of video like this. Does this come from with any data? Also just because a individual person would object to a person doesn't mean that's a representation of everyone in a society . You can't control individuals. But if a cop would have been around he would have kept that women from being harassed. So the problem is with individual mantality, not the social laws being upheld. It's not against the law to breastfeed in public, at least in western countries. In other countries it's different and if that was the argument then I would agree.

actually....to be technical its not legal everywhere. Only 49 states have laws that specifically allow women to breastfeed in any public or private location, and only 29 states exempt breastfeeding from public indecency laws. And then, only 27 have laws related to breastfeeding in the workplace.

My source: http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/b...

don't think you can get any more reliable proof then from an official national conference of state legislators website


So its not legal everywhere, nor is it technically allowed without potential repercussions in nearly half of the united states.

Jing Wen wrote: "James wrote: "Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, you don't deserve me at my Aragorn wrote: "#Freethenipple

I personally think this is an important issue. I've seen the amount of harassme..."

I fully take responsibility for calling James a "troll", Adam had nothing to do with that. I took his suggestion to not engage with James as evidence of a history of troll-like behavior. I'll leave it to the mods to decide. As long as he's not being disruptive and rude he has the same rights to be here as anyone else. I don't think I have the psychological energy to engage with someone like him right now, though.

It looks like your data, which is a very good source , kind of proves my point. 49 states. I don't know what flipper state would be against it. And the mass majority allow breastfeeding in any public setting. We're the repercussions that you are talking about? Breastfeeding is not seen as indecent exposure. And I have never heard of a women being arrested for breastfeeding. The privet businesses? I suppose maybe, but I doubt independent businesses would risk the bad press. But even then most breastfeeding is allowezd in private businesses. No wait in all private businesses as it states in the link. Also The ACA act Allows for further breastfeeding rights. I think the breast has it

Elizabeth wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "James wrote: "Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, you don't deserve me at my Aragorn wrote: "#Freethenipple

I personally think this is an important issue. I've seen the a..."

Don't worry about it and just enjoy your time here. I may or may not agree with what James says but I do learn a thing or two from him. Also, whatever challenges you face here with James will be similar to those you receive in real life from those who thinks that feminism is just a sham. If you can handle James properly, you definitely have a fighting chance against all them haters. If this is difficult, think of what Emma has to face every day in her crusade!

Also lets stop all this infighting. There is a different thread on dealing with trolls. This thread is for talking about topless rights. Lets not get sidetracked. Cheers :)

Elizabeth wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "James wrote: "Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, you don't deserve me at my Aragorn wrote: "#Freethenipple

I personally think this is an important issue. I've seen the a..."

Your ok Elizabeth, I'm sorry for the bad joke. I really didn't mean it as a shot at anybody, just a silly response for everybody.

James wrote: "It looks like your data, which is a very good source , kind of proves my point. 49 states. I don't know what flipper state would be against it. And the mass majority allow breastfeeding in any publ..."

From what I understand, even in states where breast feeding in public is legal, woman are still, quite often, asked to stop doing so. They are asked to leave restaurants, they are still charged with public indecency. Just because the law allows the woman to do such a thing in public, that does not mean people agree with it. That is one of the biggest obstacles we face in trying to remedy this oppressive attitude to woman and their natural, naked body parts--people need to understand that it is not a sexual thing to feed their baby in public, it is a necessary thing to keep the baby happy and healthy. It is not a crime, nor should it be frowned on. Then you have how people frown upon topless woman. People seem to think that, once it is legal, everyone will do it. I can tell you now, I would probably not take advantage of this law very often, if ever, but I know some people would and they should be allowed to. Men are the main obstacle in getting this law changed because we woman want it changed--men are the ones saying that it is too sexual, but that is only their opinion! We need to make men see that, yes, just because they find it erotica, that is their burden to bare. They are the ones who have sexualized that part of our body, not females. If they say they will stare at woman while topless, well, all I have to say is; have you ever heard that staring is rude? It is not as though you are incapable of looking away. If you stare, you are being just as I said--rude. It is not down to woman if men cannot control themselves in this situation, because, in my mind, all humans still breath the same air and have to sleep at night. There are no real grounds for banning topless woman's rights.

James wrote: "It looks like your data, which is a very good source , kind of proves my point. 49 states. I don't know what flipper state would be against it. And the mass majority allow breastfeeding in any publ..."

@James While it's good that majority states allow breastfeeding, it is still a problem due to stigma when women breastfeeds in public. Also this data is from a Western country which is suppose to be one of the leaders of the modern world. What about other more conservative countries where women aren't allowed to reveal their hair in public, let alone breast feed? The fact is, an issue will always be a problem until you have a 100% success rate. For example, if in 2014 you had 150 cases of rape, and in 2015 you had only 20 cases, you might argue it's an improvement. But that doesn't change the fact that rape is bad and we should continue the fight until the day where rape is non-existent and only a nightmare of the past.

Savannah [semi - hiatus] wrote: "James wrote: "It looks like your data, which is a very good source , kind of proves my point. 49 states. I don't know what flipper state would be against it. And the mass majority allow breastfeedi..."
I disagree with you and the link above shows just that, it's against the law to charge a women breastfeeding in public. Take a look, no one can't charge a women for anything involving breastfeeding. Also everyone knows that breastfeeding is a necessity for new born babies., really everyone knows, it's human nature and biology. I have never heard of a women being tried for breastfeeding. No Courts would go through with that...
also are you crazy with men wanting to stop women going around topless. Men would be the ones willing to vote for it. I have never met a single heterosexual male that wouldn't want women to walk around without shirts on. Speaking as a man, it would be heaven. What are you basing that view on? Really that view that men are against women's breast is kind of crazy. Men don't want women to be more conservative with their bodies, they kind of want them to be more free. But then you get into men looking at women's bodies if they went around topless... yeah that would happen, because that's men's sexuality, which no one can or has the right to control. just like men have no right to control women's sexuality.

Jing Wen wrote: "James wrote: "It looks like your data, which is a very good source , kind of proves my point. 49 states. I don't know what flipper state would be against it. And the mass majority allow breastfeedi..."

I Agree With You On Women From Other Countries and cultures. Which I Did State In my post response. Also I started a discussion on real rape culture and the new years rape attacks in Germany. So I do have a open heart to women's rights in other countries and cultures. I hope you'll take a look at it. It really is a issues that's important and truly tears Me up inside to hear about. It's a shame that it's not being talked about more.

James, in all due respect, that is your opinion. We are all entitled to them. Just because your experiences are different from mine, that does not make mine less true. From what I know and have experienced, men are all for woman who are modest, because, "Who wants to date a woman who shows everyone what she has?" They base that view on nothing being "theirs" to see. If you have no experienced this, well, you have had a merry view shared by the people around you. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

I am not saying people can control another person's sexuality, I am saying a person has control over their own actions. If a burn victim walked by, it would be rude and offensive to stare. As intellectual human beings, we have the control over our minds and bodies to not stare. This rule should apply to men staring at the breasts of a woman--staring is rude, and people can control whether or not they do so.

http://medicalkidnap.com/2015/02/11/b...

Why don't you try reading this link, and continue to tell me that I am wrong.

http://nationalreport.net/nyc-police-...

I have been lurking around around for a while, but after reading this thread, I couldn't resist not answering and ended up joining to give my own two cents on the matter. Do forgive me if I am not as eloquent as I normally am; it's freezing cold and I've just finished some exhausting schoolwork — and as usual, feel free to rebut my points. I want to learn more, too, as well as different opinions on the matter.

@James

This is what you said: "Are you crazy with men wanting to stop women going around topless. Men would be the ones willing to vote for it. I have never met a single heterosexual male that wouldn't want women to walk around without shirts on. Speaking as a man, it would be heaven. "

First of all, insulting someone and calling them "crazy" really doesn't help put your point across. I would think that what you said is quite unfair for 'single heterosexual men', don't you think? (Not to mention excluding men of other sexualities who are attracted to women, and also invalidating transwomen who have not undergone surgery.) To assume that they are all incapable of resisting the sight of women's skin? I'm assuming that you say that out of personal experience as well as your knowledge of all the 'single heterosexual men' you know — and I rather think it's unfortunate that you are surrounded by so many men who aren't respectful enough not to ogle a woman's breasts.

Second of all, I have to say I agree with Savannah on what she says about men preferring women who are modest. (She also makes a good point about stigma against breastfeeding; those links are certainly worth the read.) I'm fairly certain that single (or even taken or married!) men don't go to stripper bars to find potential wives. Do they enjoy their company and the little amount of clothing they wear? Sure. But are they looking for partners in any of them, to settle down with? Unfortunately, society still places an, in my opinion, overly large emphasis on the idea of virginity = pure = good. Even now, we hear people judge women for the amount of clothes they wear and the cleavage they show, calling them slutty and attention-seeking, when these clothes make them feel confident. Or maybe these women just want to feel nice on a hot summer's day!

By saying that men would be the first to vote for equal rights to go topless, I personally think that actually invalidates the right. If we do gain equal rights to go topless, I want it to be through efforts to normalise and desexualise breasts, not because some 'single heterosexual men' can't keep it to themselves and stare at topless women. We are fighting for the ability to do so without being stigmatised or discriminated against, and especially to do so without being sexualised — which is a problem we still face today, even without needing to go topless.

@This topic in general

I would think it would be quite hard to change society's views on equal rights to go topless, let alone passing a law allowing this. Though if we were allowed to go topless without being called indecent, I wouldn't, just because I think that dressing modestly empowers me, just as some people think that going topless empowers them. I have no problems with people going around topless, unless they have problems with me dressing modestly, both of which are my own choices. To each their own, right?

Ok let me clarify my statements for both Savannah and Juno. First i wasn't calling anyone crazy. I was saying the the idea that men in western culture wanted women to be more modest in their feelings, exprestions of self and sexuality, was crazy. That is both a generalization of both men and women as individuals and paints everyone with a broad stereotypical brush. Please note that my post were following a stream of other post, were i was answering questions. So it's important to take it within the content of all the post writings together.
Second. Just because i was talking about Heterosexual men and their sexuality doesn't mean that i was excluding men and transgender people of other sexuality, because I wasn't. Heterosexuality can up in repose to to the idea that Men wanted women to act more modest, I took it that that statement was referring to Heterosexual-men.
Third. When I talked about Heterosexual mens sexuality, being open to women walking around without shirts I was not talking or referred to ogling and objectification of women. This was a direct responds to it being said that mens preference was for women to be modest. I used mens biological sexual desire to represent a contrast to that statement. Also heterosexual sexuality in men, like it or not, is based on being attracted to women, physically as well as emotionally. Men are attracted to women bodies so if women started not wearing shirts, It is not without reason that men would notice...I'm not saying ogling or harassment...I saying men,being attracted to women, would notice if they had exposed breast...I sorry that is the truth. Just as Women would notice if men started walking around without pants on...and if those women were attracted to those men, then it would be a natural part of their sexuality to notice...That's really just the human condition, we're are attracted to each other physically as well as emotionally.
Lets see I forgot what number i was on...Ok women's modesty being more desirable...
Ok I have a question for you two, How can you honestly make that assumption about men desiring modest women more? How can you make any assumption about what men want? by first not being heterosexual men yourselves?, and two categorizing all men together?
(and I wasn't referring to men going to strip clubs or any of that. You kind of superimposed that on what i was saying. also I don't believe a women expressing herself more freely with her body or sexuality, automatically puts her to the extreme of being a stripper or floozy. Nor do i think that men who are more open to open women as degenerates. That's kind of slut shaming which is the kind of thinking that leads women to feel that they need to be modest and men that they should want modesty.)
My feelings is that you cannot make assumptions on heterosexual men's sexually or what they desire. One because, no offense, neither of you two are Heterosexual Men. So you would not know anything about a mans desires or wished in the opposite sex. Also because everyone is a individual so what one person wants can not be categorized by others.
At this point I have gone on to long but I hope i made it a little clearer with what I was saying.
Oh you mentioned society placing a great deal of overly large emphasis on the idea of virginity = pure = good. I think that is a view that is place for younger people really. I think it is their to try and keep younger people from having a lot of sex to early own, before they are ready for it. As people grow older that view goes away in a lot of cases. People get more experienced, sex is less of a mystery. Your just happy to be with someone you like.
Anyway I hope I cleared my name a little.
Take care

oh Can either of you clarify how men hold women to mortal standards in western culture? more because that would be interesting if I missed a point.

Ok Savannah this first article is about a mother being arrested because she was charges with malnutrition of her baby, not because she was breastfeeding her baby in public. Yes malnutrition is considered abuse, or least child neglect, and laws like these are in place for child protection. You see the State believe that children have rights like adults. If they are in jeopardy the state can step in to save them.

I Have nothing to say about the second article, That cop was acting against the law, using extreme unnecessary force and he should have been convicted and sentenced to murder. I think that everyone can agree that this isn't a typical case. I'm surprised that I haven't heard about this.
thanks for the post

Can you elaborate on this Idea that you Wrote.
"Who wants to date a woman who shows everyone what she has?" They base that view on nothing being "theirs" to see.

While I am aware that she was arrested for another matter, the point is, they did not show her the courtesy of at least covering herself before they arrested her. They went in, guns blazing, and in the process, most likely committed some breach in protocol. I plan to look this protocol up momentarily, if you would kindly reserve your comments on this particular part of my post until that point.

The second link, however, is the worst of the worst--but that does not mean it was a one off. This is not just some rogue cop doing something out of the ordinary here. This happens on a daily basis, all over the place, even in states where it is legal for woman to breastfeed in public. Just because you do not hear about it, that does not mean it is not happening. For example, I will use you; this article should have been more well known, especially given the attrocity of the crimes that the police officer committed. If this was not front page news, I ask you--do you really think a lesser incident involving a break in this law would be?

Now, as for the modesty comment. Most of my friends in the entirety of my life have, and will continue to be, male. This is because we have so much in common, not because I am a "tomboy" or anything of the sort. I have female friends, I have male friends. I am just getting this out so you cannot comment on my personal life choices. But, because of this close association with the opposite sex, I have been allowed first hand knowledge of what goes on inside their heads. They say what I have told you, as well as other men. See for yourself--

http://alovelycalling.com/2015/07/10/...

http://www.girldefined.com/guy-though...

http://www.thefulltimegirl.com/2013/1...

http://ldswhy.com/qa/what-do-guys-thi...

As you can see, I have more than just personal experience to prove my point. If the articles are not enough, or you believe them to be fake, please, do read the comments. I doubt that a website could forge so many with such a diverse range of uniqueness, do you?

So, I am not assuming anything with what I am saying, and just because I am not a heterosexual male, that does not make you the authority for straight men either. I hope that now I have gone and made things a little clearer for you.

If you getting me to seriously prove this point was to somehow say that woman should not be allowed to be able to walk around topless by law, you have done a good job. But I do still believe that woman have this right and should be allowed to do as they please. A man should want what is on the inside of a woman--her heart, her mind, her very soul. How she dresses should be second to that. Whether or not it is, oh well. There is someone for everyone out there, and this law change would not change that fundamental element of the universe.

In addition, since I am briefly trying to think like you, whereas you pick holes in everything I say, I will add this--perhaps two of those links are related to religion, but not all of them. So please, for everybody's sake, do not start saying that religious people and feminists cannot mix. Please do not say they have no worth because you may not be religious and therefore it is void. Everyone has their own opinions on the matter, I only did my best to incorporate a broad spectrum of different men and their different views on the overall matter, which all seem to lean towards modesty over immodesty (with exceptions, of course). I ask this simply as a preventative matter; stick to the topic at hand.

If you are religious, I think there is proof that God prefers both men and women naked. Adam and Eve started out in the Garden of Eden naked. If God had really wanted men and women clothed, He would have done so before the first sin. So in regards to this topic, I don't think that religion is such an issue.

Also, something that could be worth thinking about. If say society has accepted that both men and women can go topless, would there still be stigma against breast feeding? Or in other words, is the stigma against breast feeding the revealing of the female breast, or the action of feeding?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/art...

For those TLDR, the study shows that men can also lactate. Therefore, if a men breast feeds in public, will he also be stigmatized as much as women?

Savannah [semi - hiatus] wrote: "In addition, since I am briefly trying to think like you, whereas you pick holes in everything I say, I will add this--perhaps two of those links are related to religion, but not all of them. So pl..."

Savannah I wasn't trying to make a summons about you,your sexuality, morality,ideals or beliefs. I don't think I did but if you took it that way I do apologize. My main point was that I didn't feel that breastfeeding was a problem issue on a legal level in the western world because it has pretty much been legalize everywhere. Are some individuals going to have negative feelings about it still? Probably...but you can't control individuals feelings about things only their actions...they can make a comment and be assholes, but they can't force anyone to stop. It would be against the law to. The cop post was most disturbing because the baby died. That was example of a rogue cop. Any cop that takes the law into his own hands is a rogue cop...which is a problem but kind of a whole other issue. On men wanting modestly...ok every individual person man women, or other will want something different because everyone is different. A person's religion or beliefs may shape how that person sees things and what they want out of a partner. People who are religious might have different values based on believes of morality. There is no systematic across the board way that men feel about women. Do men like women physically, yes. Are men looking for more then that with a women as a partner....of course . The men want morally nice women thing is just a myth believe me. Also just because women are more open and honest about their sexuality,feelings,thoughts,ideas.....dose not mean that they are not good people, they are actually just honest. Thoughts are actually the best qualities to find in someone. Your guy friends sound young.