Our Shared Shelf discussion

Again, James, you are not the authority on the male society as a whole. If you are not one of these people who wish to have a woman with morals in their life, be my guest. You can be as immoral as you want, it is not my life and I do not care what you do. But you cannot speak for everyone, and everyone is not perverted or looking for someone who shows themselves off as though they were putting on a voyeurism show. Some men do want a woman who is conservative or modest, and I can give you a list.

In addition, my guy friends are not all young, not all of them are married, not all of them are in relationships. My male friends cover a wide range of different circumstances. You stipulating that men wish to have someone who is morally nice is just a gender stereotype in itself, and as a male and a victim of said stereotype, you should be ashamed for spreading it further.

For the sake of diplomacy, I am going to leave this topic for awhile and go and study.

Look you are really trying to put words in my mouth here...wow all the things that you are a accusing me of are kind of things that you have superimposed and projected on me. I didn't say I was the expert on men, just that all men are different. The whole morality and judging women thing was something that you accused all men of...and I'm sorry but you are wrong and wrong to stereotype all men that way. I'm sorry but I think this is the end for me and talking to you...I really have nothing more to say.

Forgive me, a typo in my previous message has severely changed what I was trying to say. Needless to say, you have gotten the wrong message from me, and I want to beat auto-correct up with a baseball bat.

In addition, my guy friends are not all young, not all of them are married, not all of them are in relationships. My male friends cover a wide range of different circumstances. You stipulating that men wish to have someone who isn't morally nice is just a gender stereotype in itself, and as a male and a victim of said stereotype, you should be ashamed for spreading it further.

Just to clarify myself more, that was in response to your one line saying, "That men want morally nice women thing is just a myth, believe me."

That is a gender stereotype, one which you are spreading, and one day I hope you see it is wrong in future.

James wrote: "Look you are really trying to put words in my mouth here...wow all the things that you are a accusing me of are kind of things that you have superimposed and projected on me. I didn't say I was the..."

@James I think Savannah was nit-picking on this particular statement of yours, which I think was worded badly.

The men want morally nice women thing is just a myth believe me.

And also this particular sentence could have been seen as a personal attack.

Your guy friends sound young.


@Savannah Do relax dear. I think you had pretty good points up there. Cheers :)

I think that something to keep in my mind when talking about equal rights is that having legal rights doesn't stop people from having opinions

and acting on those opinions

Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, you don't deserve me at my Aragorn wrote: "and acting on those opinions"

Someone's actions doesn't invalidate another's equality.

I know, I was just adding onto what you said. Though depending on the action taken it can.

Savannah [semi - hiatus] wrote: "Just to clarify myself more, that was in response to your one line saying, "That men want morally nice women thing is just a myth, believe me."

That is a gender stereotype, one which you are spre..."

In your first statement you made the comment, that started all of this off, that men wanted and expected women to be moral, Or to up hold a level of virtue and goodness. You also stated that this was because men held unrealistic expitations and standards on women. My position this whole time is you cannot judge men the same or superimpose that all men have the same feelings,desires. We are individuals. From there you have flip flopped back and forth accusing me and projecting you own morality on to the subject. I'm not the one who is being judgmental or holding people to standards and morals belief , you are. Your argument is fueled with you own personal feeling,and although important, should never be superimposed on other. I feel that you are arguing with me just to argue and trying to take cheap shots that you know are not true. Your views are your own but I feel that you are being sexist to men.

Jessica wrote: "I think that something to keep in my mind when talking about equal rights is that having legal rights doesn't stop people from having opinions"

You can't stop people from having options, and you shouldn't want too either...because that would mean taking away people's freedoms and controlling them.
This is why a lot of people have a problem with feminism. They see it as trying to control people.
Also even the bad options are needed because they inform us who we are and what we believe by debating them.

Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, you don't deserve me at my Aragorn wrote: "I know, I was just adding onto what you said. Though depending on the action taken it can."

Cool then.

James wrote: "Jessica wrote: "I think that something to keep in my mind when talking about equal rights is that having legal rights doesn't stop people from having opinions"

You can't stop people from having op..."

I agree.

"You also stated that this was because men held unrealistic expitations and standards on women."

What unrealistic expectations and standards did I mention? I do not believe I mentioned anything along these lines, so please, do remind me of what exactly you are talking about. If you are referring to the links I provided, they were simply to show you that there are men who prefer woman to be modest, since you insinuated that all men would love to see woman walking around bare breasted. I say now that this was only a small portion of what I could share, for I believe everyone has different views, and some men would like it--but not all of them as you implied.

My entire talk has been trying to say that men and woman deserve equality, not once have I been sexist to men. On a daily basis, I politely inform other people of if they are being sexist, and I ask them to phrase their words another way. I have no reason to be sexist to men--I love men and woman equally, and this is not from a sexual viewpoint either.

How could I be sexist on the topic of equal rights to go topless? There are many facts which prove both genders are on similar ground, no one being better than the other. Some people may think woman should not be topless being they lactate, but so can men--just one point where neither gender is better or worse than the other. If you want proof of this, here is an excerpt from a website called www.babycenter.com :

"They [men] also have oxytocin and prolactin, the hormones responsible for milk production. There have been reports of men who were able to produce milk through extensive breast and nipple stimulation, but no one knows whether the milk was of the same composition or quality as the kind women produce.

I really do not see how I am being sexist. I have been more than courteous to men, even stating that most of my friends throughout my life have been male. I am not doing any arguing of any sort, I am merely sticking to facts, proof, and life experience. I am politely asking you to stop saying that I have said things or done things which I clearly have not, or to provide proof that I have done what you accuse me off, rather than doing just that--accusing me of something.

To get back onto the topic at hand...

Please Note: None of this is meant to be offensive, sexist, or abusive towards men. I am copying and pasting comments from people from a total of five different websites to provide fodder for a good discussion between more members.

"Men go topless all the time and people don't even care. In my opinion, it it stupid for reproductive organs to be considered private at all, but that's just me. Why do women have to cover up their breasts if men to not? It's just extra fat. Those of you who say it's "gross" are incorrect. Ask yourself: "Is it gross to see a man walk around shirtless?" I do not think it is. So why is it gross to see boobs?"

This is a person who is for woman being able to go topless. What do you think of the points this person brings up? Do you agree or disagree?

"Liberty is allowing others to make decisions for themselves as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. If you find something offensive then avoid it but you don't have the right to tell others how to live their lives. Women should be able to go topless if they so choose to. It doesn't hurt anyone and if you find it offensive then don't look."

This is a favourite of mine, and I think it sums up the situation quite well. It uses advice and information people receive on a daily basis about many other things--do you think it still applies to woman being able to go topless by law?

"Modesty laws oppress women by jailing them for a religious dress code violation, which violates our Constitution's First Amendment Right of church-state separation. Laws against "indecent exposure" further jail and stigmatize nudists as sex offenders, for the same reason and with the added excuse of "think of the children," a common excuse for censorship and propaganda. Children are unique individuals with minds of their own and not innocent blank slates, subject to bad influences. They also need sex education, for public health, which requires media honesty about the human body. Breasts are for feeding babies, something children need, so mothers should be allowed to breastfeed them publicly, as needed, since stress can affect the babies' mental health. That's thinking of the children!"

To me, this comment could possibly be quite loaded to certain people, but I also believe all the points to be valid. What are your views on the matters brought up by this commenter?

Now, for those who commented against woman being given this right...

"For all the people out there who cry it's sexist that women can't go around topless, I am going to give you an irrefutable argument to why it isn't sexist. A woman is topless, a man "accidentally" gropes her chest, he's going to be spending the next few years in prison and registering as a sexual offender. Next scenario. A man is topless, a woman "accidentally" gropes his chest, even if he does freak out, which he probably wouldn't, but if he did, the entire police station will laugh him out of the station for reporting it. The reason it is illegal for women to walk around topless isn't for the children's sake. It is because there are completely different rules and regulations when it comes to men and women and their bodies. (sure you can say double standards are sexist, but I don't hear any women complaining about my above double standard). If the day comes when grabbing a woman's chest isn't grounds for being arrested, sure then you can say it's sexist that women aren't allowed to go topless. Furthermore, breast are the MOST sexualized object in the world, more than the phallic symbol. And yes, women are responsible for this, not men. Women explicitly attempt to make their chests more predominant to make themselves appear more attractive to men. Breasts are not just a sign of femininity in terms of children and breast feeding, they are sign of sexual maturity, as in, a sign that this woman is ready to mate, have sex, so yes breast are just as much a lusting symbol, as they are a symbol for "the cradle of life".

This person brings up laws to do with sexual assault and how man and woman are on uneven footing in this area. Do you think it is a double standard? Do you believe this is a viable reason for denying woman the rights we seek?

And, for my final post so I am not spamming this thread, here is a plot twist...

"At the point women could walk around topless will be the same time women become the center of attention of men ( and the subject of their actions). Private parts are private for a reason and if you really can't help but be jealous by a man yet again for no reason, then I vote men should be told to wear a shirt."

Is it possible that men and woman have been looking at this the wrong way? Do you think that men should be required to wear a shirt like woman, rather than woman fighting to be shirtless?

Savannah [semi - hiatus] wrote: "And, for my final post so I am not spamming this thread, here is a plot twist...

"At the point women could walk around topless will be the same time women become the center of attention of men ( a..."

Maybe. I made a post earlier in this thread that would apply to this question. Even though we should all be able to do whatever we want, legally, doesn't mean we should. When we share a public space we should pay attention to the others around us and act with respect. In some places, it will look like both women and men going topless, and in other places it may not.

I would like to go topless myself. I would rather move ahead in progressiveness towards everybody of all genders and body types being able to go shirtless - instead of back into the past again when there were groups that fought for men's right to go shirtless and not be covered up all the time with a shirt. I do not want to regress just to have equality for both in the sense of more mandatory repression for all, instead of just giving everybody their own choice of whether or not they WANT to go shirtless and to act upon it. But that is just me.

Yeah breastfeeding may not be illegal but seeing a woman's nipple sure as hell seems to be. I do take some objection to the quote of someone else who said, "Women explicitly attempt to make their chests more predominant to make themselves appear more attractive to men." Yeah it is both a sign of sexual maturity as well as child-feeding capabilities, but removing the stigma can still be done. There are villages in Africa that consider bare breasts a normal thing, and leg exposure indecent in women. Anything can be sexualized yes, but that does not mean it should be, especially when that objectification forces a huge group of people to hide it in order to escape horrific judgement and hatred from others. To change their behaviors, ways of dressing, acting, and dealing with the stress of having to hide such things, especially if the individual does not want to dress and behave this way and feels very uncomfortable and even shameful for them. If someone doesn't want to wear a bra because it is uncomfortable for them, they should not have to. It is their body, it is their personal preferences towards clothing and how it feels upon their bodies. Same with shirtless as an option for everybody.

To understand where I'm coming from, I'm a transman that wishes I could go shirtless without people reading my body as coded "female" and attacking me for that. I am not a woman, I am a man, and bras are very uncomfortable for me. I hate wearing binders which seem like a reject of the corset era, just to "appear" as a man and to deal with incredible stress and worry over ever appearing anything other than a man - because I am liable to be shot, beaten up, raped, harassed, bullied, jailed, killed and much more. Simply because I do not match what someone thinks of when they think of "a man."

Believe me, I know that stress well, and yes I am insanely jealous of cismen who can parade about without shirts if they so desire, simply because they have less fat on their chests than I do. Why should I have to get a surgery to conform my body to some arbitrary standard to be taken as a "male-appearing" body? All that effort just to be able to take my shirt off and be accepted as much of a man as any of you?

Trust me, having been raised a woman and been around many other women, there are women who'd just wish that other people would just ignore that there are breasts there on their chests. Who do not "explicitly attempt to make their chests more predominant to attract men." There are lesbians ya know? What if they want to attract other women and men don't fit into the equation at all? Now there's a thought...

Growing up, the emphasizing the chest was seen by me more as a need to "do this to gain this all-important male approval" AS WELL AS "this is what you do to consider yourself beautiful, sexy, and having an awesome body" in the personal, intimate, self-esteem sense. The former relies upon other people around you to fulfil, while the latter can be done just by yourself in your room and with your body to see how it feels for you. It was also implied to us that the breasts indicate we are women now, and thus had another desirable tint - the validation of maturity and saying that you're this much closer to achieving the all-important adult label. Many kids, not all, wanted to grow up as fast as possible and this was one of the ways you knew you were this much closer to being a grown up and making your own rules.

What I noticed was a lot of this came to me from my mother and girl friends, and from the media, movies, books, computer games, etc. Aka, society as spread through many different individuals and entrenched in the collective mindset of the USA-western outlook.

Yeah I don't agree with it now. I saw it something to achieve when I was growing up however, regardless of my own personal gender sense. Because "that was what you do."

Anyways that quote above hit a bit of a sore note for me because it almost implied intended agency in the words, as if all the women conspired together to do this with fullest of agency and intention just to broadcast to all men (note there is no mention of gay men, or lesbians...) that they are ready for sex...when there was much more to it that I remember from growing up than any sort of "sexual advertisement." Hell there are a lot of girls growing up that don't want sex and yet are told to do this to be considered in any way grown up and get validation of being a grown up. Not doing so was often considered indication of you still being a child and treated as such. What a Catch-22!

Anyways this is just my own personal thoughts, opinions, and belief on the matter. Take it as you will.

I'm out, if you arr just going to move you arguing goal post to where ever you want, and then try and demonize me and say that I said things that I didn't , then this isn't a logical discussion. It's just you changing your mind to try and be right while pretending not to hear what other people are saying.

Savannah [semi - hiatus] wrote: "Now, for those who commented against woman being given this right...

"For all the people out there who cry it's sexist that women can't go around topless, I am going to give you an irrefutable arg..."

"This person brings up laws to do with sexual assault and how man and woman are on uneven footing in this area. Do you think it is a double standard? Do you believe this is a viable reason for denying woman the rights we seek?"

Although I'm all for women's rights, James does have a point there. How would you feel if a man touches your boobs? Ideally, men should see female breasts not as something sexual. And if he doesn't, then there should be no reason for a man to want to grab a woman's boobs. However, the fact is, we men love those gift of the gods to women. Seeing women topless is like putting candy in front of a kid. Blame it on society all you want, but until men can see women's breast no differently then they see the chest of other men, rights for women to go topless would only be a distant dream.

May i add, I dont really understand whats so "GREAT" about breats. They are just fleshy lumps on a girls chest, its not like they're made of gold or anything. I dont have much to argue at this topic since im for and against this in different areas. Personally i think its disgusting to see how men treat and think of breasts to be sexual toys (Not saying that you do Jing, please dont feel offended, I just know ALOT of males who think that). If its the case that women cant go topless, then men cant too. But I will support the fact that women should go topless as long as males are sensible about it.

I also have another ridiculous thing to put out there for all yall. My mum was telling me at the dinner table one day that her work banned spaghetti straped dresses and tops because they're too revealing??? Whats the go with that?? She works at a University, so, why are they banning that? The Uni is forcing women to wear "Covered" clothing in the 40 degree Australian sun. Its stupid.

Limthium; Dying Fire wrote: "May i add, I dont really understand whats so "GREAT" about breats. They are just fleshy lumps on a girls chest, its not like they're made of gold or anything. I dont have much to argue at this topi..."

No worries man. Although, as a straight man, I'd have to be honest that I do love those "fleshy lumps" and I don't know why either. Also, if you ask me, those "fleshy lumps" are absolutely disgusting on men. But that's just my personal opinion. If men are allowed to reveal their disgusting lumps, women should be extended the same rights.

If a woman wants to go topless, then let her!! It's her body and if she is confident enough to wear no top then good on her no man should try and do anything to her. And women shouldn't be calling other women sluts. I have personally dealt with being called this name and I got called this for being friends with males. It is our own gender (females) that are bringing us down and not giving us the confidence to show as much or as little skin as we like.

As for the matter of breastfeeding in public, of course it should be allowed!!! What do you want the mothers to do, stave their children?? Honestly thats all I have to say on that topic.

I agree with you, Jess! And I love how you phrased your point of view, Jing Wen! Also, Lim, that is really rough about your mother, as well as all the other girls at the university. It is such discrimination against the female gender.

Two links for thought--

1) http://www.stuffmomnevertoldyou.com/b...

2) http://www.truthdig.com/eartothegroun...

From what everyone has said, the main problem seems to be the sexualized nature of the female breast--now all I can say is, lets brainstorm! xD

How can we bring to light that this either needs to change, or it needs to be acknowledged in some way so that woman can go topless without being troubled by stares from people?

Well currently there's the #FreeTheNipple movement that's trying to bring to awareness about the sexualized nature of the female breast. There's people on Tumblr, Pinterest, and other places that are photoshoping male nipples onto female breasts to highlight the hypocrisy. They're doing the same by photoshoping the female nipple onto clothed women and shirtless men to show how weird it is that we get up in arms about just a raised nub of flesh. Especially one that is a bit bigger than some other kinds of raised nubs of flesh.

As for the other ways to bring this about... I'll toss some ideas into the thread in the free-for-all brainstorming of some sort of march of topless women, men, and people of all sexes and genders to protest such absurdities of declaring one type of lump of flesh is ultra sexualized and another type is not. Can also work to have people with chest surgery for whatever reason (transgenders, breast cancer survivors, etc.) to show their scars and breasts alongside the rest.

Another thing that we could do..... hrm. Try to pass along bills that make it legal to be topless and organize gatherings in states where it is legal, to be topless one and all to gradually desensitize people to such a sight? Hrm... IDK anyone else have any other ideas?

Personally, While I agree that women shouldn't be objectified, I think showing a bit of decency in public is necessary.

I don't mean to be sexist, because in my opinion, the same rule applies to men and women. I think both genders should dress respectfully in public.

first of all what do you mean by rights it is to right to speak right to have the same salary most of the discussions i see only talk about the rights to strip naked in public yes i agree men and women should have the same rights but they should have the same obligations towards society and their country it's very wrong to distinguish in pay between different religion or people from different ethnicity nevertheless men and women everyone should have the same pay if they qualify for that position with regards to freedom of expressing i think men and women are equal in expressing their opinion and no one should distinguish between a men's speech and a women's speech at the end of the day its a speech as for the most mind occupying topic sexual rights in here we have to define what types of rights we are talking about men and women are physically different we can not say they are equal. A man or woman can take off their clothes and run naked at home as long as they want but stripping naked in public they might have the freedom to do so but because we are in a society this will impose on others and to look at this person indecently in other word this is a violation of other people rights because not everyone want to see x,y,z flabs, thighs and so on. furthermore this act can corrupt the minds of youth this that what we want to encourage. Stripping naked in public man or woman causes respect to be lowered isn't that we are aiming for respect equal to men what difference would it be women be from the women on Playboy degrading women i would challenge playboy to do this for free because no one these women would do it for free
To gain respect you have to earn it.
...And reveal not their adornment save such as is outward; and let them cast their veils over their bosoms (Qur’an 24:31) and if u argue against this then you may say i have the right to speed on the road but everyone will tell you dont be stupid your violating others and endangering lives being reasonable and fair is what keeps the society alive sticking to one end of the stick equality without being just that will not work because we know equality is not getting justice. this discussion has nothing to do with religion a woman in her nature is symbolized as modest, leaving religion out of it lets look at from a biological perspective the human body can sustain the ability to be naked in the external elements for only a short period of time but long time ago humanity relieased that their body is not equipped to continuously exposed to external elements of environment otherwise we simple would die hence we developed the invention of clothes to cover our body from elements and from possible violators. By all means to those who want to strip naked i challenge you in London's weather for 20 minutes to do this.

with all due respect to everyone's opinion on stripping naked but this is my opinion on this matter

Also, no offence meant, but just because one gender is socially allowed to dress indecently is no reason for the other to want to dress the same.

AG wrote: "Also, no offence meant, but just because one gender is socially allowed to dress indecently is no reason for the other to want to dress the same."

do you not think this encourages others?

Indigo wrote: "Well currently there's the #FreeTheNipple movement that's trying to bring to awareness about the sexualized nature of the female breast. There's people on Tumblr, Pinterest, and other places that a..."

Might just be me, but I really don't see any progress made by those. It's like right now, I'm telling you, whatever you do, don't imagine a PINK ELEPHANT. Well, you just did, didn't you? :D

AG wrote: "Also, no offence meant, but just because one gender is socially allowed to dress indecently is no reason for the other to want to dress the same."

Let me rephrase that using different terms.

Just because girls like strawberry ice cream is no reason for boys to also want strawberry ice cream. But it doesn't change the fact that some boys just love strawberry ice cream. Who are we to deny a poor kid strawberry ice cream when his friends can all enjoy strawberry ice cream without being ill treated?

So basically, the idea is not to strip all women naked in public. But we want to make it so that those women who wishes to go shirtless, may do so without harassment from the rest of society.

Noor, behind every decision is also a motive, and those motive determines, if someone would strip in public.

But if we do not know men and women characters motives, we can only predict, what was theirs original motive. Including that women who are naturally more cautious and motherly, they do not expose however! This is also a reason why men get more easily naked, than women. Men world is only about themselves.

- Tad

Tadej wrote: "Noor, behind every decision is also a motive, and those motive determines, if someone would strip in public.

But if we do not know men and women characters motives, we can only predict, what was ..."

What bases do you have for saying that? Men's world is only about themselves. Why is it the male feminist who always feel the need to tear down other men?

I don't agree with the analogy. Eating Strawberry Ice Cream is not going to make people uncomfortable, but walking around without clothes is.

There are countries with actual rules that one should cover one's shoulders and knees when out in public. But I've personally seen many foreigners disregarding these rules, caring more about how they look and dress in their own country, completely disregarding how uncomfortable they make the people around them well.

Anyway, This has gone sort of out of topic, because I'm talking about both men and women. And I was brought up in a society where people are taught to dress decently.

Hmm, it's a good point you raise about countries with actual rules that people should cover their shoulders and knees in public! Though that rule would apply to both men and women, so both men and women would have to adhere to this rule, instead of countries such as the USA, where men walking around shirtless is less frowned upon than women walking around shirtless, so in the case of those countries, both women AND men would be treated equally in terms of toplessness.

I do agree that foreigners who visit other countries should observe the cultures and customs of that particular place! I personally find it quite disrespectful of them when I see foreigners completely ignore cultural rules like those you mentioned. However, not every society or culture (or whatever you call it) have the same standards in terms of how much skin people should show, but as far as I've seen, cultures with strict rules to how much skin people should show tend to apply to both men AND women, so I personally don't think it's as much of a problem as say, Western countries where men are allowed to walk around topless and face much less judgement than women. (I might be wrong on this, though, so don't hesitate to tell me what your opinion is about my point of view because I'm really interested to know! ^^)

You're right. It's rather funny that those countries which Western countries frown down on treat men and women equally in certain cases where the Western Countries don't!

Take the Middle East, for instance. Sure, Politically and Culturally, Women may not have reached the level of equality they have in the West. But they are respected. Rape is a very serious offence, which leads to a public hanging of the criminal.

And when I visited the Middle East, I personally saw Men go out of their way to move and give Wome on a pavement a lot of free space to walk.

*Women

That's very true! I've visited the Middle East as well, and both men and women are conservative, so I guess that supports the success (?) of the system that if women shouldn't be allowed to walk around topless, neither should men. (Just so we can make it more relevant to the topic before it gets way off XD)

Aaaaand now we've come back to the idea of topless for all VS topless for none.

Also, I think we should remember that the equal right to go topless is less about people streaking on the streets and catching hypothermia and more about why it's socially allowed for men to go topless, whereas it's not the case for women. I personally don't like seeing much of a stranger's skin (not that I'll shriek and call anyone a pervert if you're wearing less clothes, and it is practically impossible to avoid massive posters featuring shirtless men) but then again, I'd just avert my eyes. And while I might be uncomfortable with it, I can't stop them from doing it, and as long as they're not directly harming me, I won't stop anyone from doing it?

Savannah [semi - hiatus] wrote: "Now, for those who commented against woman being given this right...

"For all the people out there who cry it's sexist that women can't go around topless, I am going to give you an irrefutable arg..."

I have a few thoughts on a some of your posts. First, yes men can lactate. But it is rare - in some cases brought on by malnutrition or some other disruption to the endocrinal system. Not sure it is a fair point to use. In regards to the question of whether or not it is gross to see men topless. For me, the answer is sometimes yes. I personally think that guys with beer bellies should cover up. I do agree that those who find something offensive should avoid it. But when we share a public space, it could be hard to find in which to avoid it. I do think that the person who brought up the laws regarding sexual assault makes a valid point. I think that it is hard to desexualize a woman's breasts when touching them could grounds for assault. Lastly, your last question asked what can we do to stop troubled stares. Besides educating the young to be circumspect in their actions - I don't think that stares will really stop.

Jing Wen wrote: "Men go topless, nobody bats an eye.
Women do the same and everybody loses their minds.

Why is it that society reacts so differently when the same part of the body is shown by two different genders..."

Honestly said, I don't think should be illegal in any way. But as long as people are well groomed there is no problem. (Not being well groomed and exposing themselves in public is a feat men are particularly more proficient in than women)

But the rules in the end apply in both ways. As a man I cannot go to work in a half unbuttoned shirt either. In the end, I don't see why people shame women for those particular things.

I think a lot of the hype over women going top less has to do with the fact that in Western culture breasts are viewed as a sexual organ. Technically the only sex organs are "down below" if ya know what I mean, but bra ads, magazines, etc showcase breasts as sexual objects and so they're treated as such. A women baring her breasts is treated with the same shock that a woman or man going pantless would be treated.

Brooke wrote: "I think a lot of the hype over women going top less has to do with the fact that in Western culture breasts are viewed as a sexual organ. Technically the only sex organs are "down below" if ya know..."

Though I do not think this should change our viewpoint to the situations. Breasts are evolutionary seen meant for sexual use. They are highly sensitive, and have the accompanying brain functions to be stimuli. In addition, humans have surprisingly large mammary glands in the animal kingdom, this has evolved as a sort of 'second ass' due to our standing upright. As can be seen in sexual attraction between other primates.

There are practically no cultures that do not idolize them in some fashion. However that should not shun us from the fact they are still glands that have a practical function, and not only socially.

Also to all the women here. How would you feel if someone grabs your boobs the same way they would your shoulders? I doubt many of you can honestly say you would feel indifferent to it.

Jing Wen wrote: "Also to all the women here. How would you feel if someone grabs your boobs the same way they would your shoulders? I doubt many of you can honestly say you would feel indifferent to it."

You're talking about such an event as if it was an icicle falling off the roof - just right on the person walking carelessly right under it. Someone, doing something like this, has intentions that has to be questioned and changed.

Ash wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "Also to all the women here. How would you feel if someone grabs your boobs the same way they would your shoulders? I doubt many of you can honestly say you would feel indifferent t..."

Nope. I'm talking about an event similar to putting a candy in front of a kid. Kid likes candy, kid grabs candy. It's that simple. You can tell the kid that candy gives him tooth ache. But turn your back and that kid will still grab the candy.

So if you don't want kids to grab your candy, don't put it in front of them kids.

Jing Wen wrote: "Ash wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "Also to all the women here. How would you feel if someone grabs your boobs the same way they would your shoulders? I doubt many of you can honestly say you would feel i..."

A candy? This is a part of human body, not the conveyor manufactured food. Do you realize that even such a comparison is an attempt of objectification in itself?

Neither is an icicle a part of the human body. But you had no problem using that as a simile don't you?

Also the objectification is my entire point. I'm not saying I don't support equal rights. I'm trying to point out the reasons why it is still a distant dream.

Jing Wen wrote: "Neither is an icicle a part of the human body. But you had no problem using that as a simile don't you?

Also the objectification is my entire point. I'm not saying I don't support equal rights. I'..."

You can recheck my comment and find that I actually compared a person who "grabs" to an icicle, not anything else.

We've returned to the same point again: how to stop this oversexualisation of the whole society?