Our Shared Shelf discussion

I stopped wearing a bra in the 70's not bc men don't wear bras but bc I was more comfortable that way. In the winter I wear a turtleneck covered by a sweatshirt bc i get cold easily. I would like to go shirtless on a hot summer day, just like a man but not bc its a mans right but rather bc I would be more comfortable!

Mankind has been around for a couple million years but did not start wearing clothes till about 10,000 years ago. The first clothes were for protection. Fashion and prudery did not develop till relatively recent times!

I would enjoy going shirtless on a warm day. I do enjoy it on the rare occasions when I'm somewhere private enough that I can go outside without being observed by people I don't know. I remember when I was young loving running through the sprinklers on a hot day or jumping in a pond or just laying in the grass looking at the clouds. It was also nice to be able to take my shirt off and set it aside if I was going to do something like dig a hole where my shirt would probably get dirty.

I think it would be wonderful if we could all be more relaxed about bodies in general and not need to see everything as sexual.

For women who are breastfeeding its also nice to be able to feed a child without having to try to find a room to hide in, or sit under a sheet. Very young children can get pretty fussy if they get hungry, and often they get upset and distracted if you keep trying to put a cloth over them. So then it becomes a battle and the kid is getting more and more upset and seems its just easier to stay home. But then you end up kind of isolated because going out becomes this pain in the neck negotiation of finding spaces to breast feed.

I know many who would like to suntan topless, even when they wouldn't exercise the right elsewhere. I'm getting tired of this discussion for some reason. It is the same old same old crap about conforming to some people's standards when someone else would like to live differently. I guess it sickens me today that there is so much superiority and moral policing going on still. If only all those efforts would be put into volunteering and fixing one's own flaws first... Who seriously gives a flying fuck about what others do? Constant observing and commenting and critiquing and holier than thouing, sickens me. Hand me a barf bucket will you.

Bunny wrote: "Fiza I definitely agree that we aren't understanding one another. I feel like you are thinking the only reason a woman would want to go topless would be to prove a point? But otherwise she wouldn't..."

You are right in saying you, and a lot women, don't have a point to prove. And frankly no one should. =)

Although they are two very different things, but I understand your point of view.

I don't mean to offend, and now I am beginning to talk in circles. I was merely stating my observation how most things have progressed in women's history in most cases. It makes logical sense in my head. Of course, this does not mean it holds true for all women all the time.

For example, if the land of America was never found, it would not have occurred to anyone in the Old World that it existed. Slightly similar analogy in some ways.

Ah well, I know that feeling very well, where something makes sense in my head and doesn't make sense anywhere else. ;-)

While I would not want to walk around topless, I think it is stupid that women can't be topless for a change as guys can. It's like we can have bare breasts in sexual things involving men, but if it doesn't involve their sexual appetite than it is wrong. Really? That is really screwed up. The same goes with breastfeeding. It is a part of nature for Christ's sake, yet both women and men alike who do not know what it is like to be a mother are disgusted. But it is something women have to do! It is getting really annoying that bare breasts can only be seen when it involves something sexual. It is 2016 not the Middle Ages. So, yes, women should be able to go topless.

This is something that I think matters quite a lot. To me personally, embracing the female body for its functional abilities, like feeding babies, creating babies (whether or not we choose to utilize those functions), and our physical abilities like athletics, goes a long way in combating the societal pressures that our female bodies are primarily sexual and that we should look a certain way. It's empowering to me to know what all my body can do and focus on seeing it in that light. I think normalizing breasts, and by extension the female body as a whole, would publicly reclaim our bodies as for our own use, not others.

Studies have shown that girls confidence drops dramatically compared to boys, starting in puberty. I think part of that is that is the age we're told to start seeing our own bodies (and as an extension, ourselves) as sexual, rather than functional. I think being told to cover up as a young girl is part of the larger whole that we're told our value lies in how we're viewed by other people physically. Which sets us up for inevitable failure trying to meet an impossible standard of physical perfection.

Normalizing breasts is taking back their functional purpose, and defying the standard that we're only viewed in sexual ways.

A-1 comment Kristina!

Kristina, while I agree fully with your comment in its entirety, earlier in the thread we've seen replies along the lines of "but men think sexually about breasts".

I've been trying to come up with something solid in return to that, and never find just one single comment to argue against the reaction. Because the whole patriarchy thing opens up and it's too messy an argument then, nothing to distill into a single sentence. If anyone can do the latter, you'll be my most adored person for a while.

Aglaea wrote: "Kristina, while I agree fully with your comment in its entirety, earlier in the thread we've seen replies along the lines of "but men think sexually about breasts".

I've been trying to come up wit..."

I'm sorry that I can't come up with a solid return to that.

I am totally for allowing all genders to walk around topless in areas in which certain genders are allowed to do so anyway.

I know that I wouldn't participate as due to the society, media, culture etc. the sexualisation of breasts has become so normalised that I would feel uncomfortable doing so unless it is for breast feeding.

I'm sure some people think sexually about lips at some times, however it's ridiculous that we would expect people to cover their lips. Why is it normalised to so with breasts?

Easy. Talk to men. Men aren't without minds and critical thinking. My husband and I have discussed boobs a lot. At first, he thought they were quite fun, what I felt like was overly so. I thought they could be fun, but felt more empowered by their ability to be fun if they could also be not fun. Over time, he developed a different relationship with my boobs than when we first starting dating.

Agree with the lips comparison. The comparison I've made elsewhere is to men's arms. I find men's arms quite attractive. It doesn't mean I find every arm in every context attractive. I think we're perfectly capable of switching on and off. Men too. They've likely already seen boobs at a music festival or birthing or something and thought -> hey, not porn.

With the amount of street harassment at fully dressed women, it does mean it will be slow at first, and have certain safety concerns, which is I think what a lot of people are getting at. The root of the cause is of course the harassment, not the wearing. We can allow women who feel safe to do so take the lead in this area while supporting her by defending her right to do so, and redirecting the problem on harassment and our relationship to boobs in general.

I think it's important to not interpret certain male behaviors as innate to men. They are learned, just like we learn to hide, and can be unlearned.

Case in point: all of the men on this forum who have refrained from commenting on this thread about how this could potentially benefit them sexually. It's really not the only thing men are concerned about, though I think a lot of men are taught that acting that way is part of "manliness". This issue could benefit men by giving men the opportunity to also prove they have desires outside of sex (like equality!).

Aglaea wrote: "Kristina, while I agree fully with your comment in its entirety, earlier in the thread we've seen replies along the lines of "but men think sexually about breasts".

I've been trying to come up wit..."

Do men think sexually about breasts, or do men think sexually about a particular kind of breast? The kind that you see in lingerie ads?

Women come in many ages and sizes and shapes. As do breasts. If we all, the full range of what women actually look like, were to start walking around topless would it in fact be temptation central? Or is it easier to regard breasts as sexual candy if you only see a limited range of them wrapped up in lace and satin and photographed in soft focus?

As Kristina says of her husband Over time, he developed a different relationship with my boobs than when we first starting dating. There are fantasy breasts, and then there are reality breasts. Real breasts are awesome, don't get me wrong, but they aren't commercial fantasies. They get sweaty, they get itchy, they have scars and hair, and they age along with the women who have them.

A lot of discussions about how women have to cover things up so as not to tempt men tend to assume a particular type of "women." I remember talking to a friend who lives in a country where many women are veiled and he said that in a way its more sexualizing because when you can't see the women you can imagine that they are all beautiful temptresses, Veiled women become a blank screen you can project your fantasies onto. Same thing if you can't see the breasts. Reality doesn't intrude on the fantasy.

That's a really good point Bunny!

I spent a little bit of time going regularly to an asian style bath house for women where women of all ages and sizes walked around naked a lot. They also had an arrangement with a local hospital where women who were in treatment for breast cancer could get services at a reduced rate. So there were women who had undergone full or partial mastectomies, or who had lost their hair to chemo. Young women, old women, mothers and girls, fat, thin, muscular, not. It was a really enlightening experience to spend time there and realize that the billboards and the glossy magazines are lying to us about what women look like. Nobody in that bath house was airbrushed and back lit and etc, and you know what? They were awesome in a whole different way.

It took me a little while for my eyes and my brain to adjust but when I did, whole new light. Different world.

None of my friends or acquaintances have perfect balloon breasts like Victoria's Secret models or even bigger like the enhanced type. I suppose mine are okay, but nothing to write home about if you wish for the airbrushed perfection. Good point.

I thought I would bring this topic back up because I just read this article: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peo...

One of the comments in this article makes a very good point, there are tribes in Africa where woman walk around bare chested the whole time and nobody says anything because it is completely normal.
Of course 'we' only see it as 'wrong' because of what society has dictated to us for many years.

There is this tribe that is 100% all Women. The Women rule! And, other tribes come in an rape them! "Normal?" Yes, it is normal for men to rape women of this tribe. The Women do what they can to protect themselves. Just because it is "normal" does not mean it is better. But, then again I support all people - including men, dressing more conservatively. It is not about "right" or "wrong". It is about whatever it takes for people to stop taking advantage of other people and lusting after and raping them. Sure, conservatism won't stop all of it, but it will at least stop the help the people who were repeated victims of such ill behavior from wanting to create more victims. I know. My dad was a victim and told me what makes HIM want to create more victims! No one ever gives rip about he victim who is male! It is all about female rights to flash it all and if the male wants to rape it, down with the male! Its like eating a steak in front of a hungry child and screaming at it, "No! You can not have it!" I do not know how else to say this. Very few people seem (in my way of thinking) to really get what I am on about. You just do not know what it is like to have all but 2 men want to rape you in a Naturalist camp where IT IS NORMAL TO BE NUDE AND NOT NORMAL TO WEAR CLOTHES! You also do not know how much rape happens in tribes where everyone can show their tops. Why? The media does not mention that! I know it does happen because sometimes, that information does get out there. Sometimes it is the missionaries who find out this information. It isn't a "Christian lie". Not all missionaries go there to witness. Some are just there to help bring aid - food, medicine, schooling, and so on.

Eric wrote: "I think it shouldn't be forbidden, but in most parts of the world the female breasts are a sexually symbol. So it will always be a diffrent between female breasts and male breasts. People will alwa..."

I agree with this.

In a perfect world it would be nice if women could just go around topless without a second thought. But the reality is men are very visual when it comes to sexuality as it is so for women who already deal with gawking and catcalling i cant see it getting better when women are walking around topless. Should they have the right? Absolutely. But i think it would actually be more of a disservice to them than a real benefit.

I'm sorry James, I know you're a feminist advocate, but I can't help but see a bit of male entitlement in your response here. Men can objectify EVERYTHING about a woman. Once you realize that, there's really no point trying to hide yourself from the world. The answer of women hiding from the world is only so that men don't have to change their own behavior.

Men being aroused is not the same as them doing something about it, and frankly not my problem.

On the gawking and catcalling, I can assure you that people who catcall don't care what you are wearing. I get catcalled while jogging around my upper-class neighborhood. Red-faced, sweaty, and puffy. Cat calling is about asserting their power and dominance, not about sexuality. I'm already stuck with the choice to either feel safe or engage in a physical activity that I enjoy, but not both. There is literally no way to avoid it.

Kristina wrote: "I'm sorry James, I know you're a feminist advocate, but I can't help but see a bit of male entitlement in your response here. Men can objectify EVERYTHING about a woman. Where's the line? "

Looks like some of your post got cut off so ill just address what you do have on here.

Its not about male entitlement for me. I just know how society is and while we will try to educate and move to change the mentality as a movment i dont see this particular issue changing overnight to a point where it will be accepted. Thats just my personal view on it at this time. Its why i said women SHOULD have the right to choose if they want to go topless but i would not endorse it for someone like my wife or if i had a daughter. At the end of the day one can only control one's self and not those around them. Because im pessimistic by nature i would be terrified for the safety of any woman who would go topless in public let alone for women close in my own life because i simply do not trust other people.

Kristina wrote: "I'm sorry James, I know you're a feminist advocate, but I can't help but see a bit of male entitlement in your response here. Men can objectify EVERYTHING about a woman. Once you realize that, ther..."

With you here kristina! It's worth thinking about the different aspects of the body that have been sexualised in different cultures. There are cultures throughout the world where breasts are't sexualised, there are cultures where everything is sexualised.

Interesting article and interview with Emily Ratajkowski

http://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/...

From the article:

"Her views reflect a dramatic shift in the culture, as many young women actually do call themselves feminists these days. Her politics, especially about the body (show it off), attention (why should women not want it?), assertion, and self-acceptance occurred to me as mostly very good news. Her peers, the children of a pornographic culture, are doing just what they should do, given the wash of objectified, naked bodies everywhere. They are engaged in establishing a new narrative to reclaim the body: From SlutWalk to Free the Nipple to promoting Body Positive agendas, it is obvious that they are not the sober puritans of feminism of yore. Do these actions raise real issues? Absolutely. I respect Ratajkowski's frank perspective, but I still wish she could have a huge career and keep her shirt on—if she wishes. Is her brand of fierce feminism the future? Probably. Am I glad that she and her peers, on-screen and off-, are speaking out, even if what she says sometimes makes me uneasy? Definitely."

"NW: Again, you don't have to apologize for being beautiful.

ER: That's something we really forget in this world, especially in my industry and being in the public eye as a female. There's this idea that if a man enjoys a photograph of a nude woman or if he likes your short skirt, he's taking something away from you.

NW: Yeah, that's unfortunate.

ER: It's not right. Sex is normal. Desire is normal. Attention is normal, and that's okay. That's really what slut shaming is, right? You talk about this in your book Promiscuities. A woman talks about having sex, and it's like, well, a guy got to have sex with you, so you're stupid. You've given something up."

James wrote: "Its why i said women SHOULD have the right to choose if they want to go topless but i would not endorse it for someone like my wife or if i had a daughter. At the end of the day one can only control one's self and not those around them. Because im pessimistic by nature i would be terrified for the safety of any woman who would go topless in public let alone for women close in my own life because i simply do not trust other people."

I understand where you're coming from, and my husband would probably write the same thing. My response would be, why hide me instead of challenge the violence or verbal assault (from men and women)? It may be easier, but it goes against my integrity and rights as a person to hide for another person's benefit. Or, for you (general protective male you) to decide what's best for my benefit.

All I can control are my own actions, and that can either be to try to hide from all possible sexual objections of me, which isn't possible, or say you know what, I have a female body. It's not inherently sexual, and what can I really do if people are going to treat it like that anyway. I might as well just live my life as I see fit.

The article you posted is really interesting and thank you for posting that. It would be good on the thread about the Kim image and sexual objectification if it's not already on there.