The Bowie Book Club discussion

Please, mind the book part you are commenting on in order to avoid spoilers.

Ok, so I want to make a comment, but those of you don't know how part II goes shouldn't read it.



*** SPOILER ALERT ***



Well, in part I we are introduced to the entire new social system that the Big Brother has imposed. In part II, we go a bit further on how the system (the Party) affects people's lives, and we are introduced to Julia, a character who had already been mentioned, but has now is seen under a different light.

The involvement of Wilson with her starts many events, but the most important one is them being caught by the Thought Police. Taking into consideration how "rational" are the romantic relationships in that society, and how the "passion" between the two characters lead to their ruin, do you believe that Orwell had a pessimistic view of love?

I am not trying to be a desperate romantic, but that is something that came to my mind while discussing the story with a friend... I am not even sure I explained my ideas eloquently enough, it is just a thought... In summary, what do you think of Julia's role? (in general she annoys me, but...)

I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that for Orwell love is the most important thing that people can have - that's why Julia and Winston declare that that is the only thing that cannot be taken away from them in the event that they would be arrested and tortured.

Also, I don't think it's passion and the love that is the real danger for them. The danger have been there forever - especially when Winston first set foot in the store, or started to write his diary. I feel Julia is introduced just to give us a stronger point of identification with Winston, and to make the contrast between fear and love stronger.

However I have a feeling that Orwell did not really like women, and thought of them as a slightly inferior race. I just read one of his first books, Down and Out in Paris and London, and there are more then one instance of his misogyny. Also, that would explain why the character of Julia is written as a doll: without insight, empathy or even love: Winston never has a reason to fall in love with her, he even admits, that he just accepted her advances. Julia is not clever, lives for the day, and has to be explained every concept by the thinking Winston - she is happy just to have sex and being explained about the world.

Hey Lidiana,

Wonderful question.

For Winson, more than the idea of romance, company of another human being having a same streak of rebellion, excites him more. That even supersedes his longing for sex. Their basic premise of "love" was their shared idea of hate against big brother. In a world thoughts are oppressed, sex or any other kind of pleasure is considered sin, it's impossible to develop the full mature version of love which we see in free society of today. So in my opinion, it was more of a pragmatic perspective than a pessimistic view of love. Think about it, it "love" was the utmost important thing for them, they could have both eloped and lived among the proles for their remaining lives. But for Winston, at least, he had a high purpose to serve, or at least he thought so. In their meeting with O'Brian, when asked the question about whether they would be ready to separated from each other if it is required, Winstom was very tempted to say no. It was not love in it's complete purity. And this was a more believable plot, which looks pessimist thought but it was the only possibility that could have sprouted in that world.

Piggybacking off your comment, Amit, I feel like Winston's motivation behind his affair with Julia definitely isn't true love so much as to make a political statement. It's been said that he doesn't even find her particularly attractive and she's not portrayed in a particularly favourable light in the text. The reason he falls in love with her, or, rather, believes himself to be in love with her, is because through her he can see another way to rebel against Big Brother. The so-called 'passion' is not romantic but political, it's an outlet to release their hatred. It's a selfish affair, they aren't in it for each other but for themselves. The tragic events of the end of the novel (for those who have not read it - spoilers ahead) reflect this - when his passion for the revolution dies, so too does his passion for Julia. Or, that's the way I interpreted it anyway :)

All your comments are very intriguing and make me think even deeper about the matter... I think it is easier to justify why Winston falls for Julia... But what do you think it is her motivation for going after Winston? Do you believe is political, as well? I cannot think of it as politics because I am not fully convinced of Julia's commitment to the cause...

I feel like Julia's motivation also lies in rebellion. She isn't as vehemently against the party as Winston becomes, but there's no doubt she finds a thrill in breaking the rules. After all, when she meets Winston for the first time in the glade she tells him that she has dozens of hiding places from dozens of former affairs - usually with party members. She's portrayed, I feel, as a highly sexual creature. Perhaps Winston rebels for the principle, for the future generations, whereas Julia's rebellion is purely selfish. Instead of devising ways to overcome or destroy the party, like Winston, she just focuses on her own day-to-day survival and thrill seeking. I don't think they loved each other, I think they loved the idea of loving each other.

Wow! Such interesting points, guys! So, this relationship between Julia and Wiston shows us that even love - which seem so certain - is relative. The system they are living in is so closed that even the attractivness is something completely different. She wants a little bit of freedom, that's why she escapes so often with other members of the party (which is interesting: they break the rules and are still committed to the party - i can relate this to all kinds of religion in which people keep their faith although breaking rules) and Winston is a human being after all, this affair is just one among many other thoughts that keep hunting Winston. I guess the first time I read the book I took the love story for granted, something that I though a little far-fetched back then but now with these arguments, it seems clear to me that it was never been about an ordinary love affair. Thanks! :)

Suellen wrote: "Wow! Such interesting points, guys! So, this relationship between Julia and Wiston shows us that even love - which seem so certain - is relative. The system they are living in is so closed that eve..."

I also overlooked their relationship on the first time I read it... In fact I overlooked so many things hahahaha.

Good to see active discussion on the subject.

For Julia, I suppose it was pure lust she was motivated from. However, after coming closer to Winston, she surely got emotionally involved with him. She was rebellious for sure, but her rebellion was limited to the point when it interfered with her own freedom. She just wanted to live her life with all the pleasure, without caring much about the big brother or the world at large. She would choose sexual companion one after another. Her innocence and detachment from environment intrigued me.

I don't think love has only black and white shades. You either love somebody or you don't, it doesn't work like that. But certainly, there "love", if there was any, was at stage where they could have easily spent their lifetime with each other, which is even scarce in today's free society.

Can anyone put some light on why he ended up working for the Party ? He could have easily lived among proles and lived his life happily. Although book doesn't mention this party anywhere, so it's upto our imagination only :)

Amit wrote: "Can anyone put some light on why he ended up working for the Party ? He could have easily lived among proles and lived his life happily. Although book doesn't mention this party anywhere, so it's upto our imagination only :) "

Excellent question, Amit...

I saw the "idea" of love in the book, as others said here more as a political statement.
The whole point is how the Party control it's population and tries to control the whole timeline, we-writting history to please them. When you put the feelings on the equation it came to a point where external intereference it's harder to control. The thought police cannont rely simply in cameras and spies 'cause feelings are subjective, and as much as you have them, sometimes you don't need to express them (but they are always there).

I believe that the importance of Julia in this part of the book it is exactly that, for us to see him 'thoughtrebeling' and expressing his feelings, despite the party's attempt to control them.

Now, as for Julia's motivations, as many commented here, I believe that we need to take in account her past. She is much younger than Winston and she barely remember the time before the party existis and took control of Oceania, as she was just a kid. In my point of view, her rebellion if an expression of her feelings combined with the lack of knowledge. Diffrently from Winston, she did not remembered how life was before the Party and what her options where, she had been brainwashed her whole life by the Party, and even though found her own form of going against the system.

Just finished part II. I found the ending pretty intense. I know Winston is intelligent, but he made some bad mistakes here. He got himself caught, and he is the only one to blame. In the system he lives in, you don't trust anyone. Period!

I found Goldstein's book interesting, though a bit too long at times. Whatever I might think of Orwell, regarding some of his opinions (women), he knew how society worked.

Pedro wrote: "I saw the "idea" of love in the book, as others said here more as a political statement.
The whole point is how the Party control it's population and tries to control the whole timeline, we-writti..."

What annoys me the most about the Julia is how "fake" her rebellious attitude seems to be sometimes... While Winston fully embraces the chance of rebelling against the Party, Julia's interest seems shallow. Just like a teenager, she sounds like going against the norm just for being different. The small "crimes" she commits (like the consumption of "illegal" products, such as chocolate) have the same appeal of a teen not following parents's dietary recommendation. To make things worse, whenever Winston tries to actually involve her in important matters (such as getting to know Goldstein's book), she just falls asleep...

Samanta wrote: "Just finished part II. I found the ending pretty intense. I know Winston is intelligent, but he made some bad mistakes here. He got himself caught, and he is the only one to blame. In the system he..."

Part II is pretty intense indeed... And as you said, when Winston gets himself caught, I couldn't help, but think "That was easy, right?" He acted like a fool for sure...

Well, I think he did not "act" like a fool. He followed his best judgements and it was sort of destined for him to be caught. He was caught on the day he bought that diary ( 1st or 2nd chapter ), and the thought police was just preparing a trap for him in which he was being dragged gradually. It was not some operational mistake which laid his eventual arrest but it was mere act of thought, a thought crime which was called, which initiated this entire sequence of events. What we have been reading so far, till the end of chapter 2, was a trap in action laid by government to wipe out "traitors".

My wonder is this - If it was really a trap all along why would O'Brian would give Winston that book by Goldstein, which from the text appeared genuine ?

Amit wrote: "Well, I think he did not "act" like a fool. He followed his best judgements and it was sort of destined for him to be caught. He was caught on the day he bought that diary ( 1st or 2nd chapter ), a..."

They have been watching him for 7 years, but they waited for the moment of weakness. The book was just a push to get where they wanted him.

Thank you for your insightful comments on the relationship between Winston and Julia.
I had expected a more powerful characterisation of Julia (guess I was fantasising a bit too much here).

I find Julia to be an opportunistic rebel. Which is: "I do stuff that is against the rules BUT it is for my own pleasure and not a political statement nor a gesture of actual resistance against the oppressor."

BUT I find it incredible that she dared chatting Winston up the way she did; that she took all the decisions for their first meeting; that she knows what she wants in terms of sex and that she has the right to her own pleasure. Wow. This was written in 1949, guys.

I'm just beginning chapter 5 of part 2 (but, since the start, I know that this O'Brien thing is pure fantasy on behalf of Winston, that it is a trap, and that that diary sealed his fate, so no spoilers, nothing to worry about ;-)

About Orwell's stance on women... Well, he was a man of his time. I do not think that he was a misogynist, but that he had maybe some prejudice towards women. Anyway, to be critical towards some steorotypical attitudes, should they be male of female, does not mean one is misandrist or misogynist.

In real life, he loved women, he corresponded with female friends, but he wished he was more attractive to women. He lost his first wife to illness I think. His second wife, I'm not sure he loved her. Things seemed to be quite complicated.
Anyway, I'll have to read his biography to get the full picture.

Something that struck me in full is his incredible vision on the role of pornography in society. I'm not sure many authors in 1949 had an opinion on how pornography would rule the world.

Some point of views:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013...
https://slutocracy.wordpress.com/2013...
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013...