THE Group for Authors! discussion

When do you write in first person narrative? Third person? Does genre matter? Im working on a story based on a woman battling lyme disease, raising kids, homelessness, poverty, etc. Its like a day in the life book that follows her life over the course of years. But not sure in which narrative to write it.

I write in both the first and third person. First person can be quite intense. You see the world through the main character's eyes, hear their voice, feel their feelings. One of the downsides is that you shouldn't show the reader anything that the POV (point of view) character doesn't see.

One of the tricks with first person is to imagine that they are telling the story to someone. The reader takes the role of the listener.

Third person is more detached. There is an unseen narrator telling the story who can view things from a distance or up close depending on the circumstances.

Which should you choose for your story? That's impossible to answer. It's a bit like asking whether you should drive or take the bus to work. It all depends on your preferences and circumstances.

One thing I sometimes do with a new story idea is to try writing short stories and fragments to see if I can find the voice. I usually find that a word or a phrase will resonate with me, and that then gives me a clue for the rest of the novel.

As a fr'instance, I wrote a James Bond spoof. It took me a while to find the voice and POV I needed. After some playing around and false starts, I happened upon one phrase. There is always a scene when the bad guy meets James Bond for the first time and says "Ah, there you are Mr Bond. I have been expecting you."

That was the voice I was looking for. First person, slightly too formal, icy, cruel, cultured, deliberate. That got me off and running for the rest of the novel.

Someone else might have taken the same scenario and come up with a different angle. That was what worked for me.

So my suggestion would be to try different voices and see which you like. There is no right or wrong answer.

Most of work so far has been short stories, so I have lots of opportunities to experiment. I write in whatever voice (and tense) works best for the story. I even wrote an experimental flash fiction piece in second person once.

I wrote my first evert novel in third person but it didn't mesh well at all with my voice, and now I only write first person. But its really a personal preference!

Thank you guys so much for the info. This has been a confusing part of writing for me. But you guys made it clearer. Im going to go with first person, it fits the build.

Ken, whats difference between novels and short stories? Length of book? What the book is about? Is it nonfiction genre or fiction? I wrote two self help books, but wanted to write my first short story. Just needed some understanding of short stories. Its much appreciated.

Generally I write in third person, but occasionally I find myself writing in the first. It's been my experience to allow the characters, setting, and pace of the story to define the voice. The novel Lucky Southern Women is written primarily in the first person and alternates between diary entries and narrative from the POV of the two main characters. However, the sequel, which is being finalized for publication, is written almost exclusively in third person.
Try working with the story by listening to the characters. If their voices and experiences come to you in first or third person form, follow that and don't worry about the outcome. It will work as it's meant to.
Good luck!

Susannah,
Thanks for the advice. Yes many of us writers worry about the outcome instead of just writing or going with flow. What stood out to me was how you said Lucky Southern Women was formatted and written. I love the idea different points of views.

Nicole H.

For what it's worth, I write gay (MM) romances in a variety of genres, and except for a couple of short stories, everything I write is first person. But since romances require two people (okay, sometimes three) I write them in alternating POV. Sometimes there's a slight overlap, so that you see part of the preceding chapter (MC1's POV) from the perspective of MC2.

I found over a long lifetime of reading Regency romances (starting with Heyer) and then seguing into contemporaries, etc., that the POVs would often move back and forth between the two main characters within the same chapter, even though they were written in third person. And sometimes there was this little hiccup while you tried to figure out if the POV had just changed or not.

So I prefer to indicate at the start of each chapter who's telling the tale then. For the historicals, I also identify the date (sometimes the time as well) and the location, as kind of a "heading" for the chapter.

It works for me, and for those readers who don't care for that style...hmm....too bad, so sad? >s<

Just my USD .02.

Eric

Both first-person and third-person narration have their respective advantages and disadvantages and specific types of stories in which one may be much more effective than the other.

The third-person narrative provides the advantage of omniscience and omnipresence. The reader knows everything that is going on everywhere, while the characters within the story do not. This style is usually applied to those stories in which the activities and subplots are taking place in several different areas and involving multiple characters at once.

The first-person narrative restricts the reader to observing and hearing only what the character narrating the story sees and hears. This provides an excellent and far more intimate setting in which the reader gets to know the character/narrator much more intimately and, though not always agreeing with the character's evaluations of events or relationships with the other characters, may still identify and sympathize with the reasoning behind the character's choices and attitude.

This is all great information from different perspectives. Thank you all so much. Its good to get advice from authors, especially since i am a new writer. Its motivating.

I wrote my first novel in first-person, present tense. I thought it was going to be a fast-paced, plot-driven story, which in my head suited that approach. It turned out to be more of a character-driven story with a slower pace than I expected. I wonder sometimes if a third-person and/or past tense perspective might have given me more tools to work with, but I'm happy enough with the end result. I've since heard that most people start by writing in third-person, but I'm sure that would have its own challenges. One thing I liked about writing in first-person is that it clarified there could be only one "introspective perspective". That was both limiting and liberating, in some strange way.

For my second novel, I'm writing from two different first-person (past tense) perspectives. It has been interesting and fun, but again poses its own challenges as to who should be telling which parts of the story.

I'm appreciating reading about people's third-person writing experiences, and I am looking forward to trying that on a future novel.

Nicole wrote: "What stood out to me was how you said Lucky Southern Women was formatted..."

You're quite welcome :)
This technique appears in several of my favorite works, including Family Linen by Lee Smith, and Faulkner used it throughout his work.

Here is a really interesting take on the use of first person plural, which I always wanted to try:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/18/boo...

Third-person narration permits the all-knowing author to be as open or as secretive about his characters as he chooses. It provides the author more options than first person viewpoint.

Generally, it's good to stay in either the third or first person style throughout the book, but, big but here--you can use a switch in style, for example, from third person to first person, to show what a particular character is thinking, seeing, feeling at a particular point in time within the story, or to do a "time shift" out of the story into a particular character's experience.

Charles wrote: "Generally, it's good to stay in either the third or first person style throughout the book, but, big but here--you can use a switch in style, for example, from third person to first person, to show..."

I agree.
And I think it also depends on the type of story you are writing and how much information you want to give the readers.

I tend to write in first person, but I'm starting to feel comfortable to experiment. I might try a short story in third.

Harold wrote: "Third-person narration permits the all-knowing author to be as open or as secretive about his characters as he chooses. It proves the author more options than first person viewpoint."

Depends...There are different third person POVs. You are describing the omniscient but there's also the one called limited which is close to the firsst person as you only write what that characters sees and feels. A lot of people choose the latter. They want the closeness of the first person but find the first person a bit intrusive and awkward.

I wrote five books of my "Rose Of Skibbereen" series in third person, and then I switched to first person for the final book, Book Six. I thought it would be easier to pull off, but it was challenging. I was used to telling this multi-generational saga from a third person, omniscient POV, and the first thing I realized when I changed that was that I couldn't get inside the head of anyone but my narrator (I know, I should have realized that, but I didn't). My previous books would have alternating chapters written in third person, but I couldn't do that with this one. I am still happy I did first person POV, because I think the narrator in this book is quite interesting and it's more intense to have her tell the story, but it was harder to pull off than I thought it would be.

John

G.G. wrote: "Harold wrote: "Third-person narration permits the all-knowing author to be as open or as secretive about his characters as he chooses. It proves the author more options than first person viewpoint...."

William Peden wrote an excellent short story titled "Night in Funland" that does what you, G.G., describe. It is a story about a father whose daughter has, we deduce, died. The story is a hallucination that he is taking her to a carnival as he had promised her prior to her death.

Nicole wrote: "Ken, whats difference between novels and short stories? Length of book? What the book is about? Is it nonfiction genre or fiction? I wrote two self help books, but wanted to write my first short story. Just needed some understanding of short stories. Its much appreciated. ...."

Nicole, what I meant was that I have a lot more leeway with short stories, because for every novel-length work I could write a dozen or so short stories. Each story would be in the voice and tense that suits it best. With a novel, on the other hand, you're generally committed to your choice when you start (with a few exceptions, as others have pointed out).

I've played around with the narative voice in my memoir and that seems to be the best approach, because I've discovered that there is no other way. Even though, there is dialog from others, I'm finding it a little challenging to incorporate this in the first person.

Barbara wrote: "I am writing in first person everything: my childrens books and my adult book. First person for me is being alive, past tense is being dead. First person is colourful, past tense is dark. I dislike..."

Past tense isn't a POV. So you mean you write everything first person POV and present tense? Because third person POV can also be in present tense.

Personally I'm the opposite. I dislike everything present tense... it sounds awkward. When you think about it, it'd be rather strange that someone would write their story as it happens. (Of course, nowadays, people text and walk all the time but still.)

Yet, even at that, some authors actually manage to make me forget about the tense but they are rare.

And to answer the original question, the best POV is the one you're most comfortable using. It will show in your story.

John and Barbara, I've removed the references from the end of your posts. Just a gentle reminder that self-promotion is not permitted in this group.

I think POV should vary. I mean, why not practice our skills in a variety of contexts. My first novel was written in the third person, past tense, well, until near the end when the timeline catches up. My second work that is yet to be released was written in third person, present. I think that the second POV works best when the pace is quick and over a short time period. My first work happens over six years, my second over about 30 hours. I also have a serial side project that I am writing and that happens over a month - in that case the third person, present seems to apply nicely. of course, all that said, I think the real key is knowing how you hear the story play out in your head. Your inner voice will often dictate he path the follow.

For me, so far anyway, the story itself (the character(s) and/or the premise) dictates the POV. A short story I wrote demanded that it be written in first-person. My published novel is third-person POV, each chapter entirely from the POV of one of the two main characters. My current WIP is all in third-person POV, but because the main characters are emotionally linked, the POV often swaps within a chapter or scene.

Sally wrote: "For me, so far anyway, the story itself (the character(s) and/or the premise) dictates the POV. A short story I wrote demanded that it be written in first-person. My published novel is third-person..."

I agree with this. I've read so many different novels lately, paying close attention to both POV and tense, and I've found most of them to work well because they were the right choices for the story being told. Now that I'm writing on a regular basis, I find that I read differently ... and I enjoy it. I thought I might feel like I'm over-analyzing things, but I don't. If anything, I have greater appreciation for others' writings -- no matter the POV or the tense -- than I used to.

I started my book in 3rd person but switched to 1st, per the advice of my editor plus I had just read Before I Go To Sleep and wanted the reader to feel the raw emotion of my protagonist, which SJ Watson cleverly did. Since you are writing about a women with lots of trials, being able to share how she is feeling in 1st person might serve you well.
Interesting, I'm reading I Let You Go by Claire Mackintosh right now and she is switching between 1st and 3rd in each chapter - which is proving to be very interesting. Hope that helps.

I'm currently doing a project in 1st person and I'm finding it hard not to use "I" way too often. I'm going to go get these two books from the library and see I can get some new ideas.

Diana Gabaldon in her "Outlander" novels uses first-person when main character Claire has the POV, and third-person for all other characters when they have the POV.

It's exciting that there aren't any rules about this; it's challenging that there aren't any rules about this.

I have written six novels in 3rd person and am
working on my first 1st person book. I find writing in 1st person much more enjoyable, gives me the ability to get closer to my characters.

I think the getting closer feeling comes because of the more personal reference. I have been accused of having the main character of my first novel be a reflection of me. He isn't, per se, but people draw that idea , I think, because of the "I" personal references and the fact the story is presented through his eyes with only his internal thinking addressed.

I wrote an entire novel in 3rd person, but when I went back to read what I'd written, I saw that the story I was trying to tell required much more in-depth knowledge of how the protagonist felt, what she was thinking. So I re-wrote the whole damn thing 1st person. So much better now!!

Looking back at others' comments, I agree with those who insist the choice is made by the story we're trying to tell. My first novel was about a broken woman with huge memory gaps. She had no idea what was going on, so that one pretty much had to be 3rd person and include POV from two different characters.

Sally wrote: "Diana Gabaldon in her "Outlander" novels uses first-person when main character Claire has the POV, and third-person for all other characters when they have the POV.

It's exciting that there aren't..."
My first novel was essentially 2 books within a book. The interior book was written in 1st person--it was closer to a memoir than I like to admit. The 2nd interior book, for comic reasons, was written in omniscient narrator, and the book with the main plot was in 3rd person. My publisher was initially opposed to the mix, but went along with it when the editor explained that it would be difficult to do it differently. Most readers preferred the 1st person account and the omniscient narrator. For comedy, there are things you can do with omniscient narrator that can't be done any other way.

One of my favorite novels, A Hero Ain't Nothing but a Sandwich (YA), has different chapters written in first person point of view by selected, important characters. I have seen this technique used in similar ways by different authors; that is, instead of having a whole novel written in first person, some authors just have various chapters, depending on a character they want to highlight, told in first person. I think this can be an effective technique.

I prefer writing in the first person and my novel Divided Empire was written in this. My second novel is also being written in the first person.

I have written my novels "Death by RX" and "When Killers Collide" in third person due to the fact it allowed scenes to occur without the protagonist Harry Powell being present and I could tell more about what the villains were thinking. I did use different points of view per chapter depending on the scene.
I have read books where the protagonist is first person and everyone else is third person. Some may depend on the story and personal preference.

With all due respect, folks, this isn't a thread for promoting your books...or mine. It's a discussion thread about writing in various points of view. If we want to find out what one of us has written, we can do so by clicking the link and presumably winding up at the author page. But it's a bit blatant to start including book titles and content descriptions. Self-promotion in the wrong place is something that can get you banned.

Just my USD .02.

Eric

Nicole wrote: "When do you write in first person narrative? Third person? Does genre matter? Im working on a story based on a woman battling lyme disease, raising kids, homelessness, poverty, etc. Its like a day ..."

Hi Nicole,
This just my opinion, you are writing about the life of a homeless person and her perils, then it would be more sensible to write in the third person because you are not living the story, you are telling the story, and for dialogue it's okay to use the I and we but conclude the lines with she said, he said , they did.... this to me gets the point across and reading ease.

Delores wrote: "This just my opinion, you are writing about the life of a homeless person and her perils, then it would be more sensible to write in the third person because you are not living the story..."

I don't think that's a good reason. It could be very interesting to read the story from the eyes of the homeless, to live it with them.

Unless it's a memoir, who can honestly say they lived the story they are writing? No one would write first person if that'd be the case.

I only write in third person. My stories usually are plot heavy with several active main characters and are very hard to effectively tell from a first person POV, since critical events often happen at different locations at nearly the same time.

I guess I don't mind either. I do prefer third person as a reader, and I feel it's also more challenging as a writer.
First person style comes sometimes comes across very egocentric and as an easy way out.

I do mind, when several different characters are written in first person example - was really weirding me out.

G.G. wrote: "Delores wrote: "This just my opinion, you are writing about the life of a homeless person and her perils, then it would be more sensible to write in the third person because you are not living the ..."

Good point, I did not think of it as a homeless person living out thier lives and telling the story.

V.W. wrote: "I only write in third person. My stories usually are plot heavy with several active main characters and are very hard to effectively tell from a first person POV, since critical events often happen..."

I personally write in the third person as well, due to heavy plots and I find that my stories flow easy in a my narrator's voice. I like to engage my readers, give them an opportunity to listen and established their own opinions. Just as I read many author's with that same style, it's more enjoyable and entertaining. As a reader, I generally will not finish a novel written in the first person, it's to staggering no matter how good the story may be.

Sometimes a story may be enhanced by mixing the POV and may in fact improve the flow. Naturally the type of book (biography/autobiography/memoir - fiction etc.) will have an impact but even then the mixing of POVs can be effective. If it works why not use it?

I can see how different points of views or diversity in writing can make for an interesting, emotional book. As I am writing this next book, I am going to mix the POVs and see what happens. Its new uncharted territory for me, but from this discussion. I see it doesn't HAVE to be one or the other and I like that idea. I feel like I have more room to work with, without feeling restricted. Thanks for all the advice. Its so refreshing to hear so much knowledge from fellow authors.

G.G. wrote: "Delores wrote: "This just my opinion, you are writing about the life of a homeless person and her perils, then it would be more sensible to write in the third person because you are not living the ..."

I can see where you are coming with telling the story in third person. But it also makes sense what G.G. said. It is a personal journey of mine. So I see why first person would be a good idea too. Im going to play with the POVS as I write and see what happens. Thanks for your input.

I like mixing them but some publishing houses don't like that. I had a book turned back, with the mention that I should change one of my character's 1rst POV to 3rd and they'll publish it. Apparently the marked today is for 3rd POV. So I went indie, lol. For me ,1rst POV brings a bit more emotion and engagement. The writing flows easier too, that's true. Plus depends of the author's perspective and what perspective he wants to present for the readers.

From what I can see the story of the homeless person would work as well in either 1st or 3rd person. In some ways the 1st may make it more poignant.

What a great discussion, really helped me lean from writing 3rd person to 1st. I find writing in 1st person is much more tense and helps me to live the story and brings me closer to my main character rather than using the past tense of 3rd person.